Dear Believers, prove your god or gods is/aren't just fiction(s).

[Trek]

You were asked this question first. And since you are the one who believes, you should be able to tell us what you believe in.

I find it strange that you have to be told what God is, even as a concept. Especially as the thread title has god or gods in the title. What is it referring to?

 

[gmilam]

I find it strange that you have to be told what God is, even as a concept. Especially as the thread title has god or gods in the title. What is it referring to?

I've heard many concepts of god. The god at the Hari Krishna temple is very different from the one at the local evangelical "bible" church. Which are both very different from the deist concept that many of the USA founding fathers believed in. Some of these concepts are less absurd than others. Which one do you believe in?

 

[Pinball1970]

You didn’t get the question. Did you?

Yes, are you saying god does not know what time is?

 

[Pinball1970]

I find it strange that you have to be told what God is, even as a concept. Especially as the thread title has god or gods in the title. What is it referring to?

543 posts and still zero evidence for a god. Do you have anything? Anything at all?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I find it strange that you have to be told what God is, even as a concept. Especially as the thread title has god or gods in the title. What is it referring to?

Your "Especially" was a joke, right? Having a word in the title doesn't mean the word actually means anything.

 

[quant]

Truth is religion and since it is your belief that quantum mechanics represents the ultimate truth. I am merely questioning that belief. Is there anything wrong in that? If you claim that your beliefs are supported by mathematics and fail to realise what an absurd claim that is, we are at an impasse. Leaving aside the implications of infinite dimensional Hilbert space the theory does not match the reality of the frequency of photon absorption and emission.

 

[gmilam]

WTF??

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

WTFx2

 

[Pinball1970]

Thrice

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

ad infinitum

 

[Pinball1970]

Truth is religion and since it is your belief that quantum mechanics represents the ultimate truth. I am merely questioning that belief. Is there anything wrong in that? If you claim that your beliefs are supported by mathematics and fail to realise what an absurd claim that is, we are at an impasse. Leaving aside the implications of infinite dimensional Hilbert space the theory does not match the reality of the frequency of photon absorption and emission.

Off topic. You have a QM thread, sort of.

 

[James R]

Trek:

Either God is real or God isn’t real.
That really all there is.

There's also the matter of evidence, which we discussed. Either there is evidence that God is real, or there isn't.

You've been asked many times now whether you've seen any evidence that God is real. Each time you've been asked, you've failed to come up with anything. In fact, most of the time it looks like you're trying to avoid the question. "I don't need your evidence, Bud!" seems to be your attitude.

Well fine, Trek. It's great that you're willing to believe something without any evidence... I guess. (Or is it?)

You and I are not the same, in that regard.

If you have no evidence, then I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the whole God thing.

Coming back to the title of the thread, the challenge was to "prove you god or gods aren't just fiction". Why are you posting in such a thread, if you have no answer to that challenge?

I get that we can intellectually decide we are “undecided”, or “decided”, but the reality is, there is no connection other than to our own understanding. And that understanding is determined by which camp we decide to attach ourselves to.

It's almost uncanny how closely your arguments, poor as they are, match those of Jan Ardena. You said you've read some of the threads in which he posted. You might save yourself some time by reviewing how I (along with other people) demolished his weak arguments in those threads. Don't repeat his errors.

Anyway, back on topic. You have it backwards, just like Jan used to get things backwards. The "camp we decide to attach ourselves to" is, for most of us, determined by our understandings and beliefs. The understandings and beliefs come first, then the choice of "camp".

It doesn't make any intellectual sense to randomly choose a "camp" and then go looking only for those "understandings" that support the position we've randomly chosen to commit to, for no good reason. That kind of approach is intellectually vacuous and backwards.

When it comes to religion, let me give you an example. I was indoctrinated into Christianity as a child. My "understandings" of God and Christ were derived from what I was taught in church, in school and in Sunday school. Later, my "understandings" were supplemented by what I learned from the bible. I fell into the "camp" of Christianity almost by default. I didn't know any better, for a long time. But eventually, I found out about critical thinking, science, scholarship, skepticism, and more. I gained some new "understandings" that challenged my existing "understandings". And then, later still, I "attached myself" to a new "camp". My mind had been literally changed. I realised that, although I had thought at one time that I had good reasons for believing God was real, I was wrong. I shouldn't have been so easily convinced that God was real. I realised that my God belief was not built on solid ground. So, I took the intellectually honest approach and made an informed choice to move "God" into my list of many "not established" notions.

When you come to a more appropriate understanding of evidence and the like, I hope you'll have the intellectual integrity to join me in my much more sensible "camp", Trek. (Bonus: it's also a lot more fun. No need to worry about eternal punishment, the capricious whims of a malicious deity and such. Or, at least, to postpone such worries unless and until they become supported by evidence.)

If there is no connection, there is no God. It’s very subtle. That is why God cannot be grasped by the atheist.

Don't kid yourself, Trek. There's nothing subtle about that.

You feel that there's a God in your heart. Okay. Lots of people feel like you do. I understand it. I used to kid myself that I felt it too, when I was Christian. At the time, I was quite sincere, I assure you; I had no idea I was fooling myself. But I was a kid. I don't know what your excuse is, here and now. You're an adult.

Also, don't fool yourself that atheists can't grasp the idea of your special "connection" with God. I've been exactly where you are, with exactly the same special connection to God in my head that you believe you have. I understand. I sympathise. You're stuck, for now. But you can fix that. All you have to do is to be a little more honest with yourself. I know that, for some people, it can be very scary, though. Maybe you're one of those people. Maybe you need your God. If so, it's all good. You do you.

The atheist has to stop being an atheist, because that mindset is the very thing that creates the barrier.

Stating the bleeding obvious there, Trek.

The belief that Trump will win the election is the very mindset that creates the barrier to believing that Harris will win. The belief that raspberry is tastier than strawberry is the mindset that creates the barrier to stopping being a raspberry fancier. The Trump voter has to stop being a Trump voter in order to accept that Harris is the preferable candidate.

Thanks for letting us in on the secret, Captain Obvious.

It’s the difference between looking through a murky glass, and looking through the same glass wiped clean.

Interesting. Tell me, Trek. Do you view atheists as being "unclean", in some kind of moral sense? Do you think it's possible that this sort of revulsion could have been indoctrinated into you? Think about it. Take some time. What have your religious leaders told you about atheists, over the years? Could they be wrong (about this or about anything)?

Theres nothing to share plus it’s not a greater knowledge in the sense of academic knowledge.

Then we are in agreement. I didn't expect you would have anything useful to share on this topic.

Why are you posting in this thread? It appears you have no interest in making any argument for believing in your God.

You need to stop your atheist mindset if you want to make a connection. It’s all you.

What kind of connection do you have with your God, Trek? Explain, please. Also, can you tell me how you know your connection is real and not just in your head?

What I see is a bunch of people trying to use their intellect to put up a barrier because you are in denial of God.

What I see is somebody who isn't being honest with himself. You're running away from all the hard questions because you're afraid of the answers you might find.

The best people for you to learn from is former atheists who like y’all used their intellect to create barriers, but become barrier free and now have a connection with their Spiritual Father.

There really are very few of those, you know. Most of the traffic, these days, is going in the other direction. It's the atheists breaking down the barriers, although "intellect" isn't usually the most prominent issue when it comes to "deconversion".

ive been reading some of [Jan Ardena's] posts. I like a lot of what he said when he talked about God. Jan isn’t unique in that kind of thinking.

Jan was unusual in that he imagined that he could just know things. He was very captured by magical thinking. Like you seem to, he imagined that God sort of magically connected into his brain and that was how he could be 100% confident that God was real. He thought that atheists lacked the special God-detection brain cells that he had, or else somehow managed to turn them off or ignore their magical signals. Actually, now that I think about it, Jan thought that atheism was an enormously powerful idea - powerful enough to override direct communication from his God, apparently. It would be interesting to talk to him again to find out why he thought that atheism was so powerful.

What do you think?

 

[quant]

WTF??

Can't Science be a religion?? if no why not?

 

[quant]

Trek:

There's also the matter of evidence, which we discussed. Either there is evidence that God is real, or there isn't.

You've been asked many times now whether you've seen any evidence that God is real. Each time you've been asked, you've failed to come up with anything. In fact, most of the time it looks like you're trying to avoid the question. "I don't need your evidence, Bud!" seems to be your attitude.

Well fine, Trek. It's great that you're willing to believe something without any evidence... I guess. (Or is it?)

You and I are not the same, in that regard.

If you have no evidence, then I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the whole God thing.

Coming back to the title of the thread, the challenge was to "prove you god or gods aren't just fiction". Why are you posting in such a thread, if you have no answer to that challenge?

It's almost uncanny how closely your arguments, poor as they are, match those of Jan Ardena. You said you've read some of the threads in which he posted. You might save yourself some time by reviewing how I (along with other people) demolished his weak arguments in those threads. Don't repeat his errors.

Anyway, back on topic. You have it backwards, just like Jan used to get things backwards. The "camp we decide to attach ourselves to" is, for most of us, determined by our understandings and beliefs. The understandings and beliefs come first, then the choice of "camp".

It doesn't make any intellectual sense to randomly choose a "camp" and then go looking only for those "understandings" that support the position we've randomly chosen to commit to, for no good reason. That kind of approach is intellectually vacuous and backwards.

When it comes to religion, let me give you an example. I was indoctrinated into Christianity as a child. My "understandings" of God and Christ were derived from what I was taught in church, in school and in Sunday school. Later, my "understandings" were supplemented by what I learned from the bible. I fell into the "camp" of Christianity almost by default. I didn't know any better, for a long time. But eventually, I found out about critical thinking, science, scholarship, skepticism, and more. I gained some new "understandings" that challenged my existing "understandings". And then, later still, I "attached myself" to a new "camp". My mind had been literally changed. I realised that, although I had thought at one time that I had good reasons for believing God was real, I was wrong. I shouldn't have been so easily convinced that God was real. I realised that my God belief was not built on solid ground. So, I took the intellectually honest approach and made an informed choice to move "God" into my list of many "not established" notions.

When you come to a more appropriate understanding of evidence and the like, I hope you'll have the intellectual integrity to join me in my much more sensible "camp", Trek. (Bonus: it's also a lot more fun. No need to worry about eternal punishment, the capricious whims of a malicious deity and such. Or, at least, to postpone such worries unless and until they become supported by evidence.)


Don't kid yourself, Trek. There's nothing subtle about that.

You feel that there's a God in your heart. Okay. Lots of people feel like you do. I understand it. I used to kid myself that I felt it too, when I was Christian. At the time, I was quite sincere, I assure you; I had no idea I was fooling myself. But I was a kid. I don't know what your excuse is, here and now. You're an adult.

Also, don't fool yourself that atheists can't grasp the idea of your special "connection" with God. I've been exactly where you are, with exactly the same special connection to God in my head that you believe you have. I understand. I sympathise. You're stuck, for now. But you can fix that. All you have to do is to be a little more honest with yourself. I know that, for some people, it can be very scary, though. Maybe you're one of those people. Maybe you need your God. If so, it's all good. You do you.

Stating the bleeding obvious there, Trek.

The belief that Trump will win the election is the very mindset that creates the barrier to believing that Harris will win. The belief that raspberry is tastier than strawberry is the mindset that creates the barrier to stopping being a raspberry fancier. The Trump voter has to stop being a Trump voter in order to accept that Harris is the preferable candidate.

Thanks for letting us in on the secret, Captain Obvious.

Interesting. Tell me, Trek. Do you view atheists as being "unclean", in some kind of moral sense? Do you think it's possible that this sort of revulsion could have been indoctrinated into you? Think about it. Take some time. What have your religious leaders told you about atheists, over the years? Could they be wrong (about this or about anything)?

Then we are in agreement. I didn't expect you would have anything useful to share on this topic.

Why are you posting in this thread? It appears you have no interest in making any argument for believing in your God.

What kind of connection do you have with your God, Trek? Explain, please. Also, can you tell me how you know your connection is real and not just in your head?

What I see is somebody who isn't being honest with himself. You're running away from all the hard questions because you're afraid of the answers you might find.

There really are very few of those, you know. Most of the traffic, these days, is going in the other direction. It's the atheists breaking down the barriers, although "intellect" isn't usually the most prominent issue when it comes to "deconversion".

Jan was unusual in that he imagined that he could just know things. He was very captured by magical thinking. Like you seem to, he imagined that God sort of magically connected into his brain and that was how he could be 100% confident that God was real. He thought that atheists lacked the special God-detection brain cells that he had, or else somehow managed to turn them off or ignore their magical signals. Actually, now that I think about it, Jan thought that atheism was an enormously powerful idea - powerful enough to override direct communication from his God, apparently. It would be interesting to talk to him again to find out why he thought that atheism was so powerful.

What do you think?

When looking at the fervour of these riposte's to the question of God or no God. What comes to mind is William Butler Yeats "second Coming" :
“Turning and turning upon the widening Gyre,
The falcon cannot hear the Falconer?
Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold.
Mere anarchy is unleashed,
A blood dimmed tide is loosed and
Everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned.
The best lack all conviction
While the worst are passionate in their beliefs.”

I hope it is not off-topic or too off topic, in any event it is about the second coming, so it is religious in a sense.

 

[Trek]

There's also the matter of evidence, which we discussed. Either there is evidence that God is real, or there isn't.

What is you standard of evidence to decide whether or not God is real?

You've been asked many times now whether you've seen any evidence that God is real. Each time you've been asked, you've failed to come up with anything.

I don’t know what’s you mean by evidence of God. Do you think God is entirely separate from his creation?

"I don't need your evidence, Bud!" seems to be your attitude.

There are evidenced for God just do a google search, but you’re not interested. So I want to know what are you talking about when you say “God”.

Well fine, Trek. It's great that you're willing to believe something without any evidence... I guess. (Or is it?)

How do you know there is no evidence for God?

If you have no evidence, then I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the whole God thing.

Youre an atheist…
We disagree anyway

Coming back to the title of the thread, the challenge was to "prove you god or gods aren't just fiction". Why are you posting in such a thread, if you have no answer to that challenge?

I have posted my anwer Nothing can be proven outside of mathematics. Also any and everything can be fictionalised. So what’s the point of the thread? I thought this site was against trolling

It's almost uncanny how closely your arguments, poor as they are, match those of Jan Ardena. You said you've read some of the threads in which he posted. You might save yourself some time by reviewing how I (along with other people) demolished his weak arguments in those threads. Don't repeat his errors.

Again with the Jan thing!
Have you noticed the poor arguments which uncannily resemble each other out of the atheist camp. Just focus on me not this Jan Arden’s.

The understandings and beliefs come first, then the choice of "camp".

We’ll agree to disagree

 

[Trek]

When it comes to religion, let me give you an example. I was indoctrinated into Christianity as a child.

Sorry to hear about that.
It must have been traumatic

My "understandings" of God and Christ were derived from what I was taught in church

A lot makes sense now

Later, my "understandings" were supplemented by what I learned from the bible.

I get why you’re so messed up now

I fell into the "camp" of Christianity almost by default. I didn't know any better, for a long time.

How could you?
You were traumatised

But eventually, I found out about critical thinking, science, scholarship, skepticism, and more. I gained some new "understandings" that challenged my existing "understandings".

Good for you matey.
A lot of people don’t get that opportunity

And then, later still, I "attached myself" to a new "camp". My mind had been literally changed. I realised that, although I had thought at one time that I had good reasons for believing God was real, I was wrong.

You don’t get to realise God by being traumatised. I’m glad you came out of that

I shouldn't have been so easily convinced that God was real.

You shouldn’t have been convinced at all.
The kingdom of God lies within, not without.
You can’t be convinced of God, but you can be inspired

I realised that my God belief was not built on solid ground.

Yours wasn’t.
That we can know for sure

So, I took the intellectually honest approach and made an informed choice to move "God" into my list of many "not established" notions.

Did you move “God” or the notions of God you had been traumatised by?

 

[Trek]

When you come to a more appropriate understanding of evidence and the like, I hope you'll have the intellectual integrity to join me in my much more sensible "camp", Trek. (Bonus: it's also a lot more fun. No need to worry about eternal punishment, the capricious whims of a malicious deity and such. Or, at least, to postpone such worries unless and until they become supported by evidence.)

Unfortunately James I don’t think your camp is sensible. This terrible thread and the lack of enthusiasm to breakdown what the real meaning behind posting it, is a classic example of derangement when it comes to the topic of God.

There is a lot to understand about God. Much more than you will learn in an institution that indoctrinated children. O agree that a lot of church organisations fall into this camps, as does a lot of secular education systems. Unfortunately we live in a time where lies, and hypocrisy are the standard.

Evidence is always related to the subject. If you want evidence of unicorns then you have to see unicorns. But with God that is not the case. So you have to know something prior to acceptance of evidence. This is why I want to know what you are expecting when it come to evidence of God.
What do you think God is, and what type of evidence would you accept?

 

[Trek]

You feel that there's a God in your heart. Okay. Lots of people feel like you do. I understand it. I used to kid myself that I felt it too, when I was Christian.

You were traumatised by your indoctrination.
What you felt was what you was told to feel.
That has nothing to do with God, other than using the word. Not much difference to how the atheist Jim Jones indoctrinated his followers into commuting suicide

Also, don't fool yourself that atheists can't grasp the idea of your special "connection" with God. I've been exactly where you are, with exactly the same special connection to God in my head that you believe you have.

Atheist can grasp the idea of God. But they choose to be in denial. This thread is evidence of that
unfortunately you haven’t.
By your own words, you have been indoctrinated, now you’re rebelling.
I wasn’t indoctrinated, or traumatised in my understanding of God.
I feel sorry for you James.
Hope you get a full recovery

 

[Trek]

Stating the bleeding obvious there, Trek.

Common sense will do that, because the obvious in this case, is the foundation

Thanks for letting us in on the secret, Captain Obvious.

Dont mention it.
Let me know if I can school you in other things you may have overlooked.

Interesting. Tell me, Trek. Do you view atheists as being "unclean", in some kind of moral sense?

I view most people, including myself as being unclean in the moral sense.
Why do you ask?

Do you think it's possible that this sort of revulsion could have been indoctrinated into you?

Of course it’s possible!

Think about it. Take some time. What have your religious leaders told you about atheists, over the years? Could they be wrong (about this or about anything)?

It’s not about them being right or wrong. It’s about what you do as an individual. It’s no different to any other pursuit that requires discipline to achieve greater success.
Theism and atheism are simple labels. There’s a whole lot more happening beneath the surface

Why are you posting in this thread? It appears you have no interest in making any argument for believing in your God.

ive already responded to the thread. There’s not much to say other than nothing can be proven outside of mathematics. But now I’m interested in why such a thread is not classed as trolling.

What kind of connection do you have with your God, Trek? Explain, please. Also, can you tell me how you know your connection is real and not just in your head?

I don’t mind going into all of that, but I have been asking question for a few days now and have not received any intelligent responses. I would like some intelligent responses please

What I see is somebody who isn't being honest with himself. You're running away from all the hard questions because you're afraid of the answers you might find.

Which hard questions would those be?
It seems to be you guys who are running from questions…
What is your understanding God?
What evidence specifically would convince you God was real?
I think it is time you people answered these questions.
Otherwise your own questions have no real direction and is quite likely that you are only trying to score points using cheap shots like the this thread.
Dave has already made reference to winning and losing.
Is that all you folks are about?

 

[Trek]

There really are very few of those, you know.

That’s what make it convincing.
Nevertheless you can learn from them.

Most of the traffic, these days, is going in the other direction. It's the atheists breaking down the barriers, although "intellect" isn't usually the most prominent issue when it comes to "deconversion".

That direction is easy to fall into.
You should check out former atheist testimonies. Especially the atheists like you people who are in string denial of God.
At least you’ll learn how far removed you currently are from the concept of God.
Maybe you’ll ask better questions and create better threads.

Actually, now that I think about it, Jan thought that atheism was an enormously powerful idea - powerful enough to override direct communication from his God, apparently. It would be interesting to talk to him again to find out why he thought that atheism was so powerful.

You’ll have to put up some quotes so we can discuss them.
Jan obviously had an impact on this site as everybody seems to bring him up a lot