well at least draqon stopped trying to spread falsehoods
Danish Cartoon backlash, there embassy is blown up in pakistan!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter vincent
- Start date
I am just watching a movie now.
is it a propaganda flick? you seem to be the sort into those
nah, some japanese anime post-apocalyptic thing
grave of the fireflies?
Buffalo Roam
Registered Senior Member
No you just go ahead and do it. In Vietnam for instance.
Duh!
and you still condone killing innocent children in the name of Jihad and Islam.
You let everyone else in Islam do your dirty work so you can claim your hands are clean, sorry but they are dripping with innocent blood, the same as the suicide bomber.
Never had the pleasure of Killing a innocent kid, just don't appeal to me for some reason, or even condoning such action.
Must be the moires from being a hunter, never kill anything that isn't a threat to you or you don't intend to eat.
no, "Future Boy Conan"
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
That was such a great movie. So sad. It makes you realize how horrible war can be for civilians.
I also like this show. it was very good. I first saw this in Arabic, it was called 'Adnan wa Laila'. You might be able to still find it on the internet.
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
The deaths of millions of Muslim people in the last century, coupled with current occupations of numerous Muslim countries, and the freely supported military-type anti-Islamic propaganda allowed to perpetuate in the West is why people are angry.
You think 1.7 billion Muslims in the world are oblivious to the deaths and rapes of their brothers and sisters? How naive do you think we are?
Are you dumb? I have done this numerous times, and recently in the exact post which you just quoted.
I think you have an agenda and are trying to make SAM and I seem like we support something which we do not.
I never said that criminals should be free. Why are you attributing these lies to me? I support justice on both sides, I already mentioned this.
Please read all of my post before answering again. And please re-read as much times as it may be required for you to understand properly what I have written. If you are unsure, then simply ask me to clarify rather than jumping to foolish conclusions.
So let me get this straight. If an American soldier bombs a civilian, does that give me the right to reduce America, Canada, and Mexico to rubble because they are Christian countries? Should I blame all Christians for this? Palestinians are oppressed, because America is giving weapons, tanks, and bombs to Israel. Their angered with America, and their anger is justified.
If you think this whole controversy started on 9/11, you are either short-sighted or simply plain ignorant. The fact of the matter is, American interference in Muslim lands and denial of sovereignty and self-determination to Muslim populations has been going on for 50 years. For 200 years, the Muslim people of the world have endured the onslaught of savage European destruction of their power, wealth, land, and their people. For 200 years, Muslims throughout the world have lived under the dominance of outsiders. Now the descendants of those same people come back, after literally only 50 years to oppress us again. This is completely unacceptable of people with honor and dignity. You Americans don't know how that feels, because you are spoiled and think the world revolves around you.
For me, I think that one Afghani or Iraqi child living in misery is the world to me, I think one dishonored Afghani or Iraqi women is the world to me, I think one young Afghani or Iraqi man brutally tortured to death is the world to me. To me, one life of any innocent person is precious. The reality that strong nations oppress weaker ones is the fact in today's world. Those who struggle and resist the occupation and the continuation of the murder of their people by outsiders are benevolent to me, wherever and whom ever they may be. Whether they are Muslim or not, these people are freedom fighters, whatever the occupiers may be call them.
There are not two sides in this conflict. There is one US superpower against the resistance movements organized by various guerrilla groups. Those innocent civilians who have died by the hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan and Iraqi are innocents who have been targeted for revenge by an overzealous superpower. This is a war on civilians more than it is a war on an identifiable enemy, as there is none. In Afghanistan and Iraq, all civilians are treated like criminals. The deaths of thousands of civilians in one night is an unavoided loss, while the death of one American is worth more than all of the people of Afghanistan and Iraq in the American view.
To me, all innocents are equal, those civilians murdered in New York and those civilians murdered and who continue to be murdered in Afghanistan and Iraq were innocent. Yet to the American people, the murder of children, women, and young men is being justified. I disagree strongly that an American life is worth more than an Afghani or Iraqi life.
Afghanistan and Iraq were sovereign nations which should have been treated with the same respect and honor as Western nations such as the US, but this was not done. The occupation and destruction of Afghanistan and Iraq prove that some people, in the Western eye, are more precious than others. This is the sad reality and this is what I am trying to convey to you, that these wars were unnecessary and have resulted in untold agony for millions of Afghanis and Iraqis.
Sam, you are completely correct in this regard. Unfortunately we seem to be dealing with two main types of people in this thread, those who outrightly consider the untold misery of the people of Afghanistan and Iraq justified as they are different than "us" or those who attempt to ask us the same questions over and over but actually have ulterior motive to demonise us and our viewpoints in this manner.
Unfortunately, many people on this forum have become too involved with demonization, ego, or to simply further their misconceptions. Honesty is quite rare in this forum, and indeed in the world at large. Sometimes I become rather pessimistic with the state of affairs in the world, but I have hope that justice and truth will arrive sooner and later.
It's all speculation. They have no idea, they only repeat what is told to them. What do they care how it is like to live in Afghanistan today and of the great, benevolent culture and spirit of independence among Afghani people which was destroyed by the British, Russians, and now the Americans over a period of 200 years of brutal suffering? When will they realize that the Muslim world was not born in 2001, but has been around for more than a thousand years, and in oppression or in freedom, has remained honorable and pure.
If one doesn't respect other peoples' culture, then they will not be given any respect either.
I generally agree with your take on the greater evils.diamond said:
But if you think you have 1.7 billion brothers and sisters, all alike under Western oppression because they are Muslims, you are extremely naive.
And such claims reinforce the Western stereotypification, otherwise objectionable to you, that any Muslims represent them all.
Meanwhile, this emphasis on rapes and propaganda (cartoons!) is not persuasive to Westerners. Your treatment of women - that is, the treatment of women by those you call "brothers and sisters" - is not justifiable within reason (your sense of "honor" is an insanity, and modesty a misogynistic perversion), and your obvious inability to comprehend Western notions of freedom of expression etc undermines the reasonableness of your other accusations.
These are lesser evils, I think, even to you. Why not avoid getting stuck on them, in discussions ? In matters of colonial power and arrogance, injustice and illegitimacy, you have common cause and common grounds of persuasion with most Americans certainly, and Westerners in general.
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
I did not state it this way. Though I believe there is an element of cultural and political oppression against Muslims, this was not what I stated above.
One innocent Muslim who is murdered is like the murder of my own family member, I see no difference.
However, the vast majority of Muslims, including I, have lost a family member or close friend due to a foreign policy of Western nations which discriminate and deny legitimacy to Muslim rights throughout the world.
To Muslims, the rape of women is a crime of unimaginable horror and agony. Perhaps it is not so in the West.
As far as cartoon protests, Western people seem to simplify and ignore the more importance factors such as war and occupation in Muslim lands as a cofactor in the protests and Muslim anger. I don't agree with razing embassies or American restaurants, and have stated this before, but there is really so much humiliation a human can take until his sadness results in destructive behavior. Thats what is happening here.
Images like those in Abu Ghareeb, and the crying of rape victims of American soldiers will forever remain imprinted in the collective Muslim mind as products of Americanism in the modern Middle East.
As a matter of fact, the men in my family treat women quite fine , if not better than most Western people treat their wives. Western people always try to use the example of government in Saudi Arabia (whose government I myself dislike, by the way) and some tribal people in Afghanistan as representing all 1.7 billion Muslims around the world, when in fact, this is an unfair characterization based on ignorance.
In Pakistan, India, and Iran, for instance, it is visible to see wives beating their husbands or kicking husbands out of their house. I know its laughable, but its true. In my own family, I have a relative whose wife literally beats him out of the house when he yells at her. We always joke about it. Anyway, going on.
What do you know of my honor, iceaura? I am not acquainted with you that well that you can judge me this way?
And what of modesty? The vast majority of Muslim women wear head covering similar to women in Eastern Europe and India. Along with Muslim women, men also have severe restrictions as to how they can act and how they can dress. For example, have you ever seen a Muslim man wear shorts or be bare-chested in public? This is not common as it is discouraged in Islamic culture. Muslim men also cannot wear jewelry, gold, earrings, silk, or even silver, while women can do this.
There is also a world of difference between various Muslim cultures. Comparing Somali, Morroco, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Malaysia, Albania, UAE. There is a vast diversity in language, dress, food, and manner in all these Muslim nations.
You really should ask Muslim women, in person if you are able, about their views concerning the questions you raised. It can be quite insightful for you to learn the truth in this matter.
Would you have supported the Nazis in making propaganda cartoons against the Jews while they were incinerating them?
The same rules apply in this case.
Every news story is being watched eagerly by the 1.7 billion Muslims of the world of what happens in the West and in Afghanistan and Iraq. These cartoons are just another type of warfare, that for the minds of Western people to increase prejudice against Muslims and bring more misery to Muslim civilians.
Context. In what context where these cartoons published? Think about it.
I would hope so, though, we fight for different reasons. I fight for the freedom and recognition of injustice against my people. I struggle to bring the end of suffering to innocent people of the world and to wake up American people to stop the bloodshed of innocents and the destruction of the lives of our children.
At least from what I see, Americans want to end the war in Iraq (Afghanistan is still ignored) because it is causing them inconvenience personally in the form of the decreasing value of the dollar and loss of the lives of their soldiers. Protection of Iraqi and Afghani civilian lives are not a major component of this movement. As a matter of fact, many Americans detest Iraqis and Afghans now and are racist against them.
When people stop caring about others humanity and simply care about their own selfish interests, this type of thing can happen again in a few years or continue the way it is.
The root cause of the problem must be eliminated which is Capitalist system which breeds greedy, materialistic individuals who do not value human life if they can gain material benefit from occupying other people's lands. A respect for various cultures (including Muslim ones) must be encouraged and facilitated to grow in the West, which has now become unsafe for Muslims (esp. women and children) due to the prevalent racism in Western societies.
Most important of all, the continual interference of Muslim nations' politics and internal affairs must come to an end. The support of oppressive regimes in the Middle East must come to an end.
I have strong doubts, however, that Muslims will again be allowed to live as independent people for the next few decades, or even centuries. The view is very grim from our side of the world.
That kind of distorted fixation perhaps explains the use of mass rape by the Pakistanis against the Bangladeshis, and similar events, but it will generally appear to be a perversion to a Westerner.diamond said:
The Western powers are not using rape as the Pakistanis did, in an organized tactic against the population (that is, outside of the torture prisons) and will regard your rhetoric as melodramatic exaggeration of the significance of even serious crime - the use of emotional appeals for a cynical political agenda.
We are not the ones making a big deal out of somebody's cartoons. You are. If you want attention for the more important factors, drop the cartoons. There is no connection, for us, and there will not be one.diamond said:
Your culture doesn't. Not by my standards. Do you wish to base your arguments on my acceptance of your culture's standards ? You won't get far.diamond said:
You overestimate the role of ignorance in Western opinions, and underestimate the role of differing cultural insights. The Western cultures have areas of deeper understanding, just as the Islamic cultures do, and your recommending such inquiries to me shows an unfamiliarity with an area of them. I have listened to Muslim women, and not only public figures such as Hirsti Ali or the many others who share her opinions. Have you read, with an open mind, the feminist philosophers of the West ?diamond said:
You are never going to get a Westerner to view the Danish cartoons as part of an organized campaign of humiliation. That is not a truth we are denying, but a delusion of your own. You wallow in it. Why ?diamond said:
I am much more familiar with that context than you are, apparently. The context in which they are received is another matter.diamond said:
Many thousands do already, in the Western countries.diamond said:
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Correct, a crime by the woman who was raped, who allowed it to happen either by not being with a male relative, or dressing provocatively.DiamondHearts said:
nobody ever made a fuss about this ( I think)
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
Lies. Find me one unbiased source to prove your point. You cannot. Many atrocities committed in the 1970s are simply fabricated. Pakistan has a strict law against rape of enemies' women, death of the soldier who committed this act. Pakistan has always remained true of its Islamic principals. Islam forbids the rape of women and there is very little leniency in Islam for this crime. The Bangalis themselves were engaged in a civil war amongst each other (this may be the cause of these crimes) and to this day a significant portion supports union with Pakistan. Many Biharis also were raped and murdered by the Bengali secularists and the Indian military which invaded Muslim territory during the war. The Biharis were genocidally murdered and are still living oppressed. It was Pakistan which accepted them, because Pakistan is a benevolent nation which respects the dignity of man and the rights of the oppressed. Pakistan also allowed Afghan refugees coming in the millions to enter Pakistan. nearly half of Afghans have lived in Pakistan for some part of their life. In a hostile environment, Pakistan has always held the respect of the Muslims of this region. Concerning Bangladesh, It is only the secularist and pro-India parties which do not support strengthening of ties with Pakistan and other Muslim countries.
First of all, the supposed crimes committed by Pakistani soldiers against Bengali women did not happen. The Pakistan government themselves had asked Bengladesh to bring this matter to bilateral negotiation, but they had nothing to stand on, thus they disregarded the offer from Pakistan. Many innocent, brave young Pakistani soldiers were murdered in cold blood when in fact they were guilty of only one crime, which is the belief that the Bengali rebel parties would respect them with justice and truth, and treat them fairly. Sometimes Muslims can be their own worst enemies, and this proves that. Divisive nationalism is a poison, which Eastern Europe, Middle East have faced not too long ago. Yet, Pakistan still remains one of the most diverse nations in the world, as it is essentially a union of five countries in one with a common goal and support. For the West, a strong, independent Islamic country is a constant headache. This may be why you and others wish to turn this into an Anti-Pakistan thread.
The cartoons publication was an attack of the very heart of the worldwide Islamic community. It showed the solidarity and honor which Muslims still have left. I agree attacks against embassies and restaurants were wrong, as I stated this earlier.Your lack of respect for our culture in supporting and republishing these offensive cartoons meant to increase hatred of Muslims in the West while we face death at the hands of the US and NATO coalition in Afghanistan and Iraq is to say the least displeasing to us. All your rhetoric of respect, human dignity, and freedom is simply rhetoric. As long as Muslims die daily, we cannot excuse this.
How do you know this? What Muslim country have you lived in? What do you know of Muslim women and how they are treated?
You know nothing, your ignorance is apparent. Please ask Muslim women if you are interested. I can't be bothered with your speculations.
Yes, I have studied some, but frankly, as any Non-white American woman (Black, Spanish, Native American, Muslim) will tell you. There are differing views of what women desire in different societies.
If you are talking about government. Many Muslim nations such as Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Iran, Lebanon, and Syria (to name the few I am acquainted with) have women in their Parliaments and in leadership positions. If you talk about the right to vote, almost all Muslim countries which are not military dictatorships or kingdoms give women the right to vote.
Women are an integral part of Islamic society, any Muslim will tell you this.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be to him) said:
"The way to Paradise is under the feet of your Mother."
"That man is the best man who treats his wife the best."
When asked who is worthy of respect in this life from an individual.
He said, in this order: "Your Mother, your Mother, your Mother , and then your Father."
Do you not see the relation? Why would Muslim people disrespect and abuse their mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, and women relatives? It doesn't make any sense and is another front of ignorance which Westerners often take to vilify Islam and Muslims.
Ask any Muslim woman, she will explain to you exactly what I have stated.
Because of its Context. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The suffering of Palestinians, Chechens, Kashmiris, Somalis, Lebanese, and many other Muslim ethnic groups.
Fear and humiliation of Muslims and their political causes in the West is part of everyday lives of Muslims in Western countries. All the Muslims on this forum have lived in Western countries, they will tell you the truth if you really have the desire to learn.
What, exactly, is nonsensical about the above images, I wonder? Seems pretty clear to me:
T.V. presenter Rania al-Baz said her husband,
Mohammed al-Fallatta, beat her so hard earlier this
week that he broke her nose and fractured her face
in 13 places.
Ms Baz's mother told Saudi media that Mr Fallatta beat
her daughter regularly. This time, the mother is quoted
as saying, he became infuriated when Ms Baz answered
the telephone.
"I want to use what happened to me to draw attention to
the plight of women in Saudi Arabia," Ms Baz said.
LINK.
Mohammed al-Fallatta, beat her so hard earlier this
week that he broke her nose and fractured her face
in 13 places.
Ms Baz's mother told Saudi media that Mr Fallatta beat
her daughter regularly. This time, the mother is quoted
as saying, he became infuriated when Ms Baz answered
the telephone.
"I want to use what happened to me to draw attention to
the plight of women in Saudi Arabia," Ms Baz said.
LINK.
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Great.
But I wonder what she meant by "the plight of women in Saudi Arabia?".
Obviously, this punishment was part of a P.R. exercise to divert international media attention away from the issue, and on the whole it seems to have worked quite well.
Anyway, the post was simply a response to the absurd statement:
DiamondHearts said:
Is there meant to be some sense to religion?
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Not that I can think of, but I'm no expert on the law.
Hell, are women in Saudi Arabia even allowed to press charges?
I mean, maybe if they had more autonomy and power there would be less domestic violence?