Culture does not make Right

[S.A.M.]

In many ways. A woman's testimony is legally recognized as inferior in a court of law, in Saudi Arabia.

Which woman's testimony was rejected?

This opens their society up to a whole horrorhouse of abuses by men, who have only to match their superior word against the inferior word of women.

To whom has this happened?

Physical punishment is dealt out to women who don't meet the male-dictated standard of dress.

And punishment is not doled out to men who do not meet the state dictated standards of dress? Also is this issue peculiar to Islamic countries?

Unpunished "honor killings" take place almost exclusively in muslim countries.

Which "honour killing" was unpunished?

We have a thread in another forum here about a muslim preacher calling for the stoning of adultering women, and an article about how women are legally raped by government employees before their executions, because apparently a virgin woman's life is sacred until she's had sex. Then it becomes okay to kill her.

Since when is expressing an opinion or uncorroborated propaganda a statistic for oppression?

Need I go on..?

Yeah. Please do. I'm curious to hear more. Its always interesting to hear how travel broadens the mind. My years in the Middle East have been more fruitful than I ever anticipated. They have allowed me to recognise the utter ignorance of some western "secularists"

 

[WillNever]

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...85f-11dd-9df8-936c90684588/mde230042002en.pdf

Thank me later.

 

[S.A.M.]

Okay

 

[(Q)]

http://www.iraqbodycount.org

"The data entries for deaths in the IBC database, while methodically collected and compiled by IBC, do not originate from us. The vast majority are based on media reports of violent events which led to civilian deaths, along with cumulative information produced by various Iraqi official sources (e.g., Iraq’s Health Ministry, regional morgues or local police records)."

 

[S.A.M.]

"The data entries for deaths in the IBC database, while methodically collected and compiled by IBC, do not originate from us. The vast majority are based on media reports of violent events which led to civilian deaths, along with cumulative information produced by various Iraqi official sources (e.g., Iraq’s Health Ministry, regional morgues or local police records)."

Hmm okay, what do statistics from scientific studies say?

 

[WillNever]

SAM, what point are you trying to make here? You seem to be all over the place, on one end arguing that abuse of women is tolerable because it's someone culture, and on the other denying that violence toward women takes place -- when I've demonstrated accurately and adequately that it does. Then you cite casualties from the war in Iraq, as though that somehow invalidates any claims that abuse toward women in Arab countries (and indeed, anywhere) is a bad thing, which is hilarious because I oppose the war in Iraq probably more than you do. It's called not thinking in "us vs. them" terms.

It seems to me that you hate the fact that the topic of this thread applies mainly to Arabs, because it is most commonly their abuses that are shielded by the built-in culture excuses. Well, if that's what you offends you, then you have only the Arabs to blame for treating women that way. If they didn't act that way, this topic wouldn't apply foremost to them. And citing casualties from the war in Iraq or your personal disagreement with Israeli state legitimacy as an illogical counter-argument to the topic at hand does nothing to change that.

 

[(Q)]

SAM, what point are you trying to make here? You seem to be all over the place, on one end arguing that abuse of women is tolerable because it's someone culture, and on the other denying that violence toward women takes place -- when I've demonstrated accurately and adequately that it does. Then you cite casualties from the war in Iraq, as though that somehow invalidates any claims that abuse toward women in Arab countries (and indeed, anywhere) is a bad thing, which is hilarious because I oppose the war in Iraq probably more than you do. It's called not thinking in "us vs. them" terms.

It seems to me that you hate the fact that the topic of this thread applies mainly to Arabs, because it is most commonly their abuses that are shielded by the built-in culture excuses. Well, if that's what you offends you, then you have only the Arabs to blame for treating women that way. If they didn't act that way, this topic wouldn't apply foremost to them. And citing casualties from the war in Iraq or your personal disagreement with Israeli state legitimacy as an illogical counter-argument to the topic at hand does nothing to change that.

Welcome to the world of Sam. You may leave your pulled-out hair at the door.

 

[S.A.M.]

SAM, what point are you trying to make here? You seem to be all over the place, on one end arguing that abuse of women is tolerable because it's someone culture, and on the other denying that violence toward women takes place -- when I've demonstrated accurately and adequately that it does. Then you cite casualties from the war in Iraq, as though that somehow invalidates any claims that abuse toward women in Arab countries (and indeed, anywhere) is a bad thing, which is hilarious because I oppose the war in Iraq probably more than you do. It's called not thinking in "us vs. them" terms.

It seems to me that you hate the fact that the topic of this thread applies mainly to Arabs, because it is most commonly their abuses that are shielded by the built-in culture excuses. Well, if that's what you offends you, then you have only the Arabs to blame for treating women that way.

I'd agree if my own personal experience did not show a cultural bias towards how Arab women [or as you keep confusing the two, Muslim women] are perceived in the west. So stories of cultural oppression make little sense after having witnessed the aggressive assertive nature of Arab women.

If they didn't act that way, this topic wouldn't apply foremost to them. And citing casualties from the war in Iraq or your personal disagreement with Israeli state legitimacy as an illogical counter-argument to the topic at hand does nothing to change that.

Casualties of the Iraq war or apartheid by the jewish state are good examples of your own cultural blindness as (Q) has amply demonstrated by attempting to downplay the deaths of civilians [which may have crossed a million] in a pointless war, the kind which was justified by excuses similar to the ones in your OP. Now several years down the line, what has that achieved?


Keep your so-called secularism far far away from us. We Muslim women can do without it.

 

[WillNever]

Such stories of cultural oppression are documented by fact, SAM. You witnessing a bunch of self-loathing angry arab women doesn't change that.

The topic of this thread is not "who usually oppresses more, the Arabs or the USA?" This thread is about whether culture is a valid reason to abuse women, regardless of where it takes place. My view is absolutely even-handed, which is why I emphasised polygamist communities in Utah USA as well as abuse in a foreign shithole like the middle east. It's important to aim for a little consistency. Avoid taking umbrage on the basis of your ethnicity, if you can.

 

[S.A.M.]

whether culture is a valid reason to abuse women...as abuse in a foreign shithole like the middle east

A bigot promoting women's rights. What next?

 

[(Q)]

Casualties of the Iraq war or apartheid by the jewish state are good examples of your own cultural blindness as (Q) has amply demonstrated by attempting to downplay the deaths of civilians.

Once again, Sams bold-faced lies demonstrate her inability to be debate honestly.

Keep your so-called secularism far far away from us. We Muslim women can do without it.

Can't stand the truth.

 

[S.A.M.]

Can't stand the truth.

The truth? I wonder how Will would fare when faced with Arab women who heard his opinion of their foreign shithole.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Certainly I'm a moral and cultural elitist. If it is a society's culture to torture and kill, then it isn't culture at all. It's barbarism.

So what are you going to do about it, and where do you draw the line? Shall we invade and occupy ever country with values different from our own? Shall we refuse to do business with them? Or should we just register our outrage on the internet?

 

[S.A.M.]

I would recommend meeting some Muslim women. Or Arab women.

 

[madanthonywayne]

I would recommend meeting some Muslim women. Or Arab women.

My opinion is that we should have some respect for the long held customs and beliefs of other nations. It's only natural and right for us to belief that our ways are best, but the same applies to them.


PS My above post (#93) was rhetorical.

 

[S.A.M.]

So was mine.

 

[WillNever]

So what are you going to do about it, and where do you draw the line? Shall we invade and occupy ever country with values different from our own? Shall we refuse to do business with them? Or should we just register our outrage on the internet?

(1)I've said where the line is drawn, and "every country with different values" isn't the basis its drawn on. Cruel values that promote abuse are the basis.

(2) This is a thread on a topic about ethics and morality. It is not a mobilization for a cause type thread. It's meant to educate, not to rally people for a crusade. Therefore, criticizing the thread (or its creator) on the basis that it "does nothing about the problem" makes no sense. We have people on this board who think Israel should be destroyed so that the Palestinians can take over their land. Well, we don't expect those people to join a foreign military organization in order to "do something about it," do we? Yah, no. Do smarten up.

 

[S.A.M.]

We have people on this board who think Israel should be destroyed so that the Palestinians can take over their land.

Seems like the hasbarites are out in full swing. Its ironic that a covert Zionist is educating a Muslim woman on her position in life

 

[WillNever]

My opinion is that we should have some respect for the long held customs and beliefs of other nations. It's only natural and right for us to belief that our ways are best, but the same applies to them.


PS My above post (#93) was rhetorical.

But in fact you would only be respecting the long held customs and beliefs of a group of overbearing male limpdicks who forcibly imposed that set of customs on the women who never volunteered for such treatment. Those customs were designed and enforced by men, not women.You may respect those men's custom to interfere with the lives of others by abusing women... but I'd rather respect the women's right to be free of abuse.

The men controlling that nation while forbidding the women does not somehow make the men more worthy of having their rights respected over the women, in my estimation.

 

[WillNever]

Seems like the hasbarites are out in full swing. Its ironic that a covert Zionist is educating a Muslim woman on her position in life

Isn't a zionist usually jewish? My family are all methodist and lutheran christians, though I don't practice any religion.