Creationist questions evolution

[davewhite04]

I think I should do a painting showing Dawin with a flaming torch leading a group of visably scared and confused humans out of a cave with the light shinning down and out onto a modern world with trains and boats and planes and houses and office buildings and schools.

The man is an inspiration.
Alex

Yeeah, he even looks like a monkey on the front of his book which makes the whole thing even more special.

 

[billvon]

Name me one productive debate in this forum.

I've learned a lot about Jan and Musika from this (and a few other) threads. It has been fascinating to watch superstition and ignorance being defended by Jan as "truth." I've never before seen the logical knots people like that will tie themselves into to preserve their beliefs. For example, Jan actually claimed that Adam and Eve were not the first people per the Bible to avoid having to face an incompatibility between the Bible and reality.

It gives me more insight into how religious extremists can be convinced to do outlandish things in the name of religion.

 

[davewhite04]

I've learned a lot about Jan and Musika from this (and a few other) threads. It has been fascinating to watch superstition and ignorance being defended by Jan as "truth." I've never before seen the logical knots people like that will tie themselves into to preserve their beliefs. For example, Jan actually claimed that Adam and Eve were not the first people per the Bible to avoid having to face an incompatibility between the Bible and reality.

It gives me more insight into how religious extremists can be convinced to do outlandish things in the name of religion.

That or he believes in Theistic evolution

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Yeeah, he even looks like a monkey on the front of his book which makes the whole thing even more special.

Dont tell me you are jealous because you ended up with the rat face.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I've learned a lot about Jan and Musika from this (and a few other) threads.

Me also.
What I find extraordinary is they are both clearly intelligent yet cant see past belief.
I just cant understand how folk can not only lie to others to maintain belief but to lie to themselves.
Little robots with damaged circuits is the way I think of them...but I like them both you just have to make allowances that they have been brainwashed is all.

Alex

 

[Write4U]

Yeeah, he even looks like a monkey on the front of his book which makes the whole thing even more special.

you mean this book?

this

or this

I see no monkeys at all. Except for the center cover the animals depicted are "great apes" of the species;

The Hominidae (/hɒˈmɪnɪdiː/), whose members are known as great apes or hominids, are a taxonomic family of primates that includes eight extant species in four genera: Pongo, the Bornean, Sumatran,
and Tapanuli orangutan; Gorilla, the eastern and western gorilla; Pan, the common chimpanzee and the bonobo; and Homo, which includes modern humans and its extinct relatives (e.g., the Neanderthal), and ancestors, such as Homo erectus.

Forensic reconstructions of an adult female and adult male Homo erectus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus

p.s. the last book is by the charlatan Michael Behe, who's scam of Intelligent Design has been thoroughly debunked and disgraced in court.

 

[Write4U]

That or he believes in Theistic evolution

And what exactly does that mean?

This is my second reasonable question. Do you have any answers at all? I don't even know where you're coming from.

 

[davewhite04]

And what exactly does that mean?

This is my second reasonable question. Do you have any answers at all? I don't even know where you're coming from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution try looking it up yourself next time.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution try looking it up yourself next time.

Seemingly more reasonable but still myth dependant.
What is the problem with all these folk?... the universe is eternal and requires no creator as opposed to requiring an eternal mythical character to pop out of eternity to create a finite universe...the universe is eternal and requires no creator...say it again as you just do not seem to remember ...
Alex

 

[Write4U]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution try looking it up yourself next time.

No, that's not how it works. You used the term, you provide the reference link. But thank you for providing it now.

It sounds reasonable but, if evolution is causal to what we see today, it makes the concept of a god superfluous, IMO.
Try and work the term evolution into scripture and see what you get.
A whole new book that reads a lot like "origin of species", no?

If man evolved from a common hominid ancestor, was this common ancestor of all great apes made in His image? They were here before humans. Or after creation, did the great apes evolve into the "image of god"?

If we metaphorically depict Darwin as part ape, that would be correct no? Do you see what I mean?
Where does God fit into this picture? Odin and Zeus also became extinct gods. What's the difference now?

 

[davewhite04]

No, that's not how it works. You used the term, you provide the reference link. But thank you for providing it now.

It sounds reasonable but, if evolution is causal to what we see today, it makes the concept of a god superfluous, IMO.
Try and work the term evolution into scripture and see what you get.
A whole new book that reads a lot like "origin of species", no?

If man evolved from a common hominid ancestor, was this common ancestor of all great apes made in His image? They were here before humans. Or after creation, did the great apes evolve into the "image of god"?

If we metaphorically depict Darwin as part ape, that would be correct no? Do you see what I mean?
Where does God fit into this picture? Odin and Zeus also became extinct gods. What's the difference now?

i believe in the bones. i read two good books one. bones of contention(both called this), one wrote by a theist the other an atheist.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

If our design is by an intelligent designer and we are made in its image how come I cant scratch the center of my back?

Alex

 

[Write4U]

In a probabilistic universe, Time is the creator.
In a deterministic universe, Potential is the creator.
In a human universe, Motivated God is the creator.

Hence from a Human perspective; God = Time + Potential = Creation.

But willful motivation is not a requirement for creation, but it is the main characteristic of a human interpretation of a motivated God.

Eliminate the Human perspective and we arrive at a Universal perspective;

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Time + Potential = Creation~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[billvon]

That or he believes in Theistic evolution

Nope. He has stated quite clearly that he believes all people came from God, and were created around the same time that Adam and Eve were created. Theistic evolution, on the other hand, claims that evolution has proceeded as laid out in the theory of evolution (i.e. primates and humans share a common ancestor, as does all life on Earth) but that God meddled with the process.

But your confusion is a good example of the constantly changing justifications needed to support a theistic belief in the face of science. For example, now Jan can say "well, what I meant was that God created people like the Bible says, but the time between day 5 and 6 was really like a billion years so it all matches" or some other retcon. (Actually he won't say that because he never actually comes right out and says what he believes - but he will suggest something like that and then refuse to clarify it.) Or you could say "well, I meant young Earth creationism" and keep iterating until there is less of a disagreement in your positions.

 

[Write4U]

Theistic Evolution = God --> BB = Chaos. All subsequent events were evolutionary and we all agree on that...

I can live with the concept that God = Chaos

And that brings it full cycle back to mythology.....

Primal Chaos was sometimes said to be the true foundation of reality, particularly by philosophers such as Heraclitus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)

 

[Write4U]

Wow, I'm learning!

To Heraclitus, a perceived object is a harmony between two fundamental units of change, a waxing and a waning. He typically uses the ordinary word "to become" (gignesthai or ginesthai, present tense or aorist tense of the verb, with the root sense of "being born"), which led to his being characterized as the philosopher of becoming rather than of being. He recognizes the fundamental changing of objects with the flow of time.

Which was answered by Plato;

"How can that be a real thing which is never in the same state? ... for at the moment that the observer approaches, then they become other ... so that you cannot get any further in knowing their nature or state .... but if that which knows and that which is known exist ever ... then I do not think they can resemble a process or flux ...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus#Plato

These guys were good!

And then:

All of them had something to say about the Christian form of the Logos. The Catholic Church found it necessary to distinguish between the Christian logos and that of Heraclitus as part of its ideological distancing from paganism. The necessity to convert by defeating paganism was of paramount importance. Hippolytus of Rome therefore identifies Heraclitus along with the other Pre-Socratics (and Academics) as sources of heresy.

Church use of the methods and conclusions of ancient philosophy as such was as yet far in the future, even though many were converted philosophers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus#Plato

That's scary.

 

[Write4U]

If I understand Tegmark,
All patterns of objects in reality are only temporary, they are in constant flux between growth and decay.
Living is an extended period of pattern growth and Ageing is an extended time of pattern decay resulting in total pattern disappearance, but causal to creation and growth of other patterns.
To me that sounds a lot like Heraclitus.

Behe argues this evolutionary progression requires Intelligent Design and refuses to concede the point, but in Chaos reality all possible pattern designs are inherent universal potentials which will be realized over time.

This is a well presented rebuttal to Behe.

 

[Write4U]

Now consider;
TIME + POTENTIAL = BECOMING.

And here is where you start;

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If our design is by an intelligent designer and we are made in its image how come I cant scratch the center of my back?

Alex

More like, "why am I the only one who can't scratch the center of my back?"

 

[davewhite04]

Nope. He has stated quite clearly that he believes all people came from God, and were created around the same time that Adam and Eve were created. Theistic evolution, on the other hand, claims that evolution has proceeded as laid out in the theory of evolution (i.e. primates and humans share a common ancestor, as does all life on Earth) but that God meddled with the process.

But your confusion is a good example of the constantly changing justifications needed to support a theistic belief in the face of science. For example, now Jan can say "well, what I meant was that God created people like the Bible says, but the time between day 5 and 6 was really like a billion years so it all matches" or some other retcon. (Actually he won't say that because he never actually comes right out and says what he believes - but he will suggest something like that and then refuse to clarify it.) Or you could say "well, I meant young Earth creationism" and keep iterating until there is less of a disagreement in your positions.

Very productive. The usual Ad hominem.