• The problem is that the current advocacy of precautions seems unwilling to discuss the full range of those precautions, preferring instead to exploit a really cheap men's sexual fantasy about a scantily-clad, innocent woman wandering alone through dark alleyways as the sex-hungry pervert vampires assemble and consider the harm they can do. (
#1878030/90)
• I have attempted repeatedly to address the implications of the excuses put forward according to this scenario, and get nothing in response except a blind repetition of the excuses. (
#1879170/123)
• The whole precaution argument is left open-ended—this is the very problem the topic post addresses—and while its advocates seem to resent the implications of misogyny, they really don't seem interested in establishing the boundaries of their argument. (
#1884434/244)
• As I said, these precautions are an open-ended proposition. And they fail to address the perpetuation of ideas justifying or even encouraging rape. (
#1884557/253)
• Furthermore, even when prodded to clarify in ways that might defuse people's disgust, they're providing only the most general of outlines. "There are heaps of clothing that ... aren't designed to get male attention." That's ... well, it's not exactly
helpful, is it? (ibid)
It should be noted that Codanblad
offered a general and, ...(text deleted)... Indeed, that boundary was more of an anti-response, as it gave a vague suggestion that there are "heaps of clothes" that apparently do not inspire rapists, and is a bit more specific about what does apparently inspire rapists.
... (text deleted) ...
Furthermore, let us consider the evolution of the discussion as relates to the phrase "asked for it". Our neighbor Francois wrote, in the early going:
"
I think any idiot, whether a feminist or not, would agree that a woman walking in a dangerous city at night by herself dressed really scantily is asking for it." (
#1869513/13)
And this is where a dying thread suddenly launched into the stratosphere. Accused of attempting to "mitigate, justify, or otherwise advocate" rape, he focused on the word
justify and
chose the belligerent response. Yet despite his anger, he chose to
blame victims for being raped.
Seriously. Admittedly, the discussion was a mess by the time you joined it. Perhaps you overlooked that part:
"
I'm also saying that rape happens sometimes because of stupid decisions women make." (
#1871614/21)
And so on:
"
Anyway, as I said, obviously one of the reasons women get raped is because there is a motivated rapist. But it seems like you're saying that's the only
reason it happens. That's where we disagree. Unlike you, I acknowledge that events can have multiple causes." (
#1871793/24)
He even compared what a woman wears to the provocation of assaulting someone:
"
If I said that a person who walks up to a dangerous looking thug at night and starts pushing him around is asking to get murdered, does that "uncover my Misanthropy"? No, all it means is that the person is fucking stupid." (
#1876836/56)
And repeated the point:
"
For example, if you walk out of your doorstep and get murdered instantly for no apparent reason, that's different from provoking a thug in a dark alley and getting murdered: there are different levels of culpability here. The same is true for all crimes, including rape." (
#1877762/68)
It is worth pointing out here, also, that as some of us live in a country where asking directions or being a homeless kid looking for food in a trash can is sufficient cause for someone to shoot you to death, it's a hard case to sell that someone who kills you in self-defense is murder.
And all the while, he remained belligerent. In an interesting twist, Francois attempted to assert that the phrase "asking for it" is synonymous with "you should expect a much greater than average probability":
"
Here, 'asking for it' means the same thing as 'should expect a much greater probability of getting raped'.
So let's paraphrase it. This is not changing the meaning at all, but it might elucidate how absurd your qualms with this statement are." (
#1878006/87)
And he was emphatic:
"They. Mean. The. Same. Thing." (ibid)
In the face of overwhelming opposition, Francois reconsidered his statement—
"
If I'm to be completely honest, I originally carefully considered whether or not I should have used the phrase "asking for it." I thought about it, and it means the same exact thing. How does it not mean the same exact thing?" (
#1878036/91)
—and reaffirmed himself.
He even claimed that by not blaming the woman, we are insulting rape survivors—
"
All I'm saying is that there's a difference between a scenario in which a rapist breaks into a woman's apartment and rapes her, and a scenario in which a woman walks alone scantily clad in a dark alley and gets raped. You're not allowing for a difference. How insulting to women who have had rapists break into their homes to rape them! If you're going to be so insulting to those women, why don't you complete the deal by slapping them in the face and calling them whores?" (
#1878120/101)
—and accused people who disagreed with his equivocation of being crazy:
"
Alright man. You see no difference. Fine. I call that crazy, and I believe other rational people would too." (
#1878184/103)
Francois withdrew or temporarily exited the discussion two-hundred posts ago, still holding the line.
Moving on ....
Codanblad's part is a bit shorter. He entered the discussion by picking up Francois' point—
"
a man's sexual urges are a powerful force. rape is wrong, but dressing sexily is literally providing motivation. i agree with 'girls who dress like sluts are asking for it' because just about every creature is designed for sex ...." (
#1878878/119)
—and even attempted to reduce men to unthinking sex machines:
"i know men should act responsibly, but we're literally animals. animals don't ask permission." (ibid)
And while he tried to claim that he was "in no way encouraging or condoning rape", it seems rather fallacious to say that something is the way it is, but he's not encouraging or condoning it; rather, if it is the way it is, there
is no encouraging or condoning it.
Reducing men to unthinking animals or machines—
"... if you pull the pin out of a grenade, is it your fault or the grenade's when it blows up?" (ibid)
—is a mitigating assertion.
Here we return to my
first response to the "asking for it" rhetoric. Acknowledging that rape is a fact, I told Francois to "Stop trying to mitigate, justify, or otherwise advocate it".
... (text deleted) ...
Codanblad even expressed sympathy with the rapists:
"
i'm saying i understand why people would rape people, and i understand how seeing a scantily clad woman would incline a person towards raping her, especially given the nature of people being animals" (
#1879105/121)
I find that point
particularly unsettling.
But he
did try to distance himself from his statements in the course of a couple of posts (
#130,
#132), and while he would still place the burden of calculating men's minds, intentions, and behavior onto women, he has, over the long run, taken a slightly more moderate approach.
What we are dealing with is more than "position founded on an implicite
interpretation of a particular post". The amount of interpretation involved is minimal, and pertains largely to people's understanding of the definitions of words.
... (text deleted) ...
And yet we find all those women, apparently encouraging rapists. Or, as the arguments have them, "asking for it", attacking people, or pulling the pin on a grenade.
... (text deleted) ...
The goal is to eliminate ignorance. Unfortunately, it might be that the only way to separate the stupid from the ignorant is when the failure to understand is manifested in a rape. Given that these rapes will include dramatic proportions that have nothing to do with a woman's dress—e.g. marital and date rape, and, also, as
Deep Thought has noted
... (text deleted) ...