Contradictions in the Nature of God

Re: Not so fast, GB-GIL

Originally posted by tiassa
My own opinion of Tony1 notwithstanding, don't you think you're being a little bit harsh? After all, some people have told me they think he's quite intelligent, and I do recall Xev, at least, praising his wit and pith.

No, wait ... wait ...

Strike that.

I forgot how hard I laughed at the notions of wit and pith. So ... yeah ... have at it. I'll just be grinning over in my corner.

Sorry to bug you, GIL ...

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
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told you :p
 
Originally posted by tony1

1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omnibenevolent

Therefore evil cannot exist.
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The two statements are contradictory.

I see three statements; two premises and one conclusion. Which two are you referring to?
Actually, I should have stated:

1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omnibenevolent
3. God is omniscient

Therefore evil cannot exist.

For it would be quite possible for 1 and 2 to be true and for evil to exist simply because God was ignorant of it's existence But given 1, 2, and 3 the conclusion is sound. One of the premises must be wrong or there can be no such thing as evil.

~Raithere
 
1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omnibenevolent
3. God is omniscient
4. Satan rebelled against God
5. Satan, like us, has free will
6. Satan brings evil and death into this world

but 7:
God has overcome death, and therefore Death has lost its sting so Satan's coup d'tat has failed. So Satan is concentrating on who's left - the living, you and me.

God saw what would happen (omnicient), he could do and still is doing what is necessary to prevail (omnipotent) for the benefit of those who aren't fooled by Satan (omnibenevolent).

There is no real flaw in your argument, only a weak point: you assume that 'omni-' includes people who don't want to accept ot live under 1,2 and 3 (who, like Satan, reject God). You might not yet "belong to Satan" as muscleman would say, but you certainly have to start thinking...
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omnibenevolent
3. God is omniscient
4. Satan rebelled against God
5. Satan, like us, has free will
6. Satan brings evil and death into this world

but 7:
God has overcome death, and therefore Death has lost its sting so Satan's coup d'tat has failed. So Satan is concentrating on who's left - the living, you and me.

God saw what would happen (omnicient), he could do and still is doing what is necessary to prevail (omnipotent) for the benefit of those who aren't fooled by Satan (omnibenevolent).

There is no real flaw in your argument, only a weak point: you assume that 'omni-' includes people who don't want to accept ot live under 1,2 and 3 (who, like Satan, reject God). You might not yet "belong to Satan" as muscleman would say, but you certainly have to start thinking...

Omni means all. Not "only people who accept Gods will". Sorry but your argument does not fly logically. Assuming God knows of all the evil taking place in the world (omniscient) and is able to do something about it (omnipotent) he would want to eliminate all evil (omnibenevolent). One of these factors must fail for the equation to be logically sound. Your suggestion of 4, 5, and 6 would indicate that God is not omnipotent because Satan has the ability to bring evil into the world despite God's omnibenevolence

As a simple analogy: You have a box with a ball in it. The box represents the Universe and the ball represents evil. Now, you either know about the ball or you don't. And you either have the power to remove the ball or you don't. Assuming you do not want the ball to be in the box (omnibenevolent), you know about the ball (omniscient), and you have the power to remove the ball (omnipotent), you must remove the ball. If you do not, one of the assumptions must be incorrect.

Usually, what comes up as the answer (although it's rarely stated explicitly by Christians) is that evil does not actually exist. Christians usually imply this with statements such as "God works in mysterious ways." or "It's for a higher good." But what is really being suggested here is that what we might find evil (the death of a loved one for instance) actually works to the higher good of God's perception.

BTW I find you suggestion somewhat insulting (considering what it suggests based upon your beliefs) but if either God or Satan exist neither has any hold over me. I have free will. Remember? I accept no tyrant's authority over me, I don't care how powerful they are. If there is a God, and if it is benevolent then I will thank it for my life and we will meet as friends... But if it attempts to coerce me with threats of punishment then it can sod off... heaven would only be a different kind of hell.

~Raithere
 
Raithere - If you were the ball living in the box, you would resist being taken out of the box - anybody would. God, being omnibenevolent, does not force you out.

But imagine He says that the box has been poisoned, and that it would be in your best interest to put on a gas mask (which He gives you). He also gives you a few other gas masks to pass on to your fellow balls (who does not believe that their home has been poisoned, even though they see other balls choking and being choked to death.

God says the only unpoisoned life left is outside the box, but He knows He you have been put in the box for a reason in the first place, and being omnibenevolent He also wants you to have as much of life as you can. Actually, because He created the box, it's generally not such a bad or boring place to be in - until you start experiencing the effect of the poison.

God is omnipotent over evil. Not in spite of it. You are putting God on a level next to Satan, and even humanity. It's not either you or Him, Him or Satan, Good or Evil. You will die one day, and you will die in the box if you don't let Him take you out after you've lived your life completely.

Evil does exist. The world belongs to evil -- death. The death of a loved one isn't God's work, it's the result of evil. The life, love and salvation of the loved one is God's work. The evil that thy have done is not. God is not co-ercing you, He is asking you to see the natural outcome of life without Him, and make a decision based on that. What God does say, is that you cannot become part of a life you do not wish lead.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Evil does exist. The world belongs to evil -- death. The death of a loved one isn't God's work, it's the result of evil. The life, love and salvation of the loved one is God's work. The evil that thy have done is not. God is not co-ercing you, He is asking you to see the natural outcome of life without Him, and make a decision based on that. What God does say, is that you cannot become part of a life you do not wish lead.

So there are a few options here. I'll include the resultant invalidations...

God cannot remove the poison from the box - Cancels omnipotence
God will not remove the poison from the box - Cancels omnibenevolence
Being in the box with the poison is good for me - Cancels evil
God must adhere to the order resulting in the "natural outcome" - Cancels omnipotence
God cannot remove us from the box without our agreement - Cancels omnipotence
God will not remove us from the box without our agreement because freewill is more important - Cancels evil
God chooses for things to be this way - Cancels either omnibenevolence or evil.

The list is definitely not exhaustive... but you get my point, I hope.

~Raithere
 
I do get your point. You base your argument on what you believe God should do. What if your life in the box depended on the poison? Suddenly, taking out the poison means sudden death, and it stops being a benevolent act. God knows this - so He is still omniscient. God changes the outcome based on your acceptance of it. God isn't divided within Himself - He is not omnipotent on one side, and omnibenevolent on the other, those are two characteristics of Him, like personality traits. He isn't bound by those traits (that would deny omnipotence).

Evil isn't separate from us, it's in us. God is just closer. The Holy Spirit is the connection we have with God, our umbilical cord so to speak, that permits us to live in a poisonous environment. We get burned and hurt, but we know where our salvation lies.

We are part of this world. We were meant to be in it. It wasn't an accident. You *can* be happy on earth without believing in God, but God wants you to love others while you're here. You can actually make a difference in life, but while you're human, you're stuck here for the time being. Did it ever occur to you that it could be our humanity that keeps us here, and not God's lack of power?

God warns you about the danger. He tells you the way out. That anger you have towards unrighteousness is the one thing that might move you towards Him.
 
I just thought of something else

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

That doesn't mean God cannot tempt. It means He doesn't.

When Jesus doesn't remove himself from the cross, it isn't because He can't, it is because He knows that people will be condemned to death by such a selfish act.

When God doesn't miraculously remove evil from the world. It doesn't mean He can't. It means that we are supposed to prevail against evil ourselves, supported by His strength, but by our own choice. He created us human, therefore He lets us be human.

Romans 3
4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."[1]
5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?

When God permits evil, it is with good judgement. He explains this judgement in the Bible, so that we can make certain we do not come under it. And when we do, He forgives us if we realise it and show true regret. We don't need anything more than God's mercy. We don't need to be rid of evil to do good.

I guarantee you that if God took away evil in your grandfather's generation, and you have have only heard about it from your father, it won't be twelve years and you would rebel against that life, because you will have the fee wil to do so. We demand God's righteousness, and we demand our own will.

Now which do you really want?
 
Free will and Hell

Originally posted by Jenyar
When God doesn't miraculously remove evil from the world. It doesn't mean He can't. It means that we are supposed to prevail against evil ourselves, supported by His strength, but by our own choice. He created us human, therefore He lets us be human.

And actually, I have no problem with this. But I do view it as meaning that being human and having free will is more important than the worldly decision between good and evil. As such cannot then accept that eternity in hell is possible for a just and benevolent God. This argument is one that I had to resolve for myself long ago, it is refreshing to go over it again.

In short, I do not disagree with what you have said (as a logical argument, not necessarily as reality) but I do believe that the outcome must be that hell does not exist... at least not as a plane of eternal punishment, there are some other possibilities there.

~Raithere
 
You might be able to reason away Hell, but if you believe in a God that wants, and presents, eternal life, then anything other than that would be unthinkably torturing. God doesn't cause the eternal burning and gnashing of teeth - if Heaven takes up all the "good" space (excuse the pun), then He wouldn't have to, if what is left is hell to whoever is in it.
 
I am evil in the flesh

Who says evil is not good.

If God can only do good then evil must be a seperate branch of good. Humanity has just shunned the possibility that evil might be something we need like food or water. Therefore, evil is good and god is evil. Either that, or God does not have a concious moral system, wherefore all that is evil is good and all that is good is evil for neither has a concrete definition.

-The shadows we fear are created by the light we love.-
 
Re: I am evil in the flesh

Originally posted by Rowen
Who says evil is not good.

If God can only do good then evil must be a seperate branch of good. Humanity has just shunned the possibility that evil might be something we need like food or water. Therefore, evil is good and god is evil. Either that, or God does not have a concious moral system, wherefore all that is evil is good and all that is good is evil for neither has a concrete definition.
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Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Rom.3:7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

3 John 1
11Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.
 
Therefore, God would do ANYTHING (since he can) to get rid of evil (because he's omnibenevolent). But evil does exist. How can this be explained?
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Well, that's easy, since one of God's ranks turned against God, going from good to evil. Um...that would be the Morning Star, Devil, Satan, what ever. Since God imposses FREE WILL , it could happen, right. If every individual has the right to free will, can't evil exist on its own. Why, wouldn't you ask, that God doesn't correct this. Read the Bible, it says it right there. And no, I will not make it easy for you and give you the answers. READ!!!!!!!!!!!:D
 
Still devilishly evil

Originally posted by Jenyar
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Rom.3:7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

3 John 1
11Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.
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I love all of this lovely literature you have sent me. It is amazing how something so enlightening could be penned by human minds and hands.

Rowen
 
"Well, that's easy, since one of God's ranks turned against God, going from good to evil. Um...that would be the Morning Star, Devil, Satan, what ever. Since God imposses FREE WILL , it could happen, right. "

Let me ask you somethind. Lets say Saddam Huissane has nuclear weapons and is planning to use them to kill innocent civilians. He has the free will to do this, but should it be allowed? Should Satan have the free will to inflict murder, death, disease and pain on innocent people?

While we're on the topic of Satan, how did he become evil to begin with? If Heaven is completely devoid of any evil, and all the angels did not even know what evil is, how could Lucifer become evil?

Weird, I'm writing about Satan and Winamp just switched to a song called I Shot Lucifer :p
 
No contradiction...

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Nebula wrote:
1. God is omnipotent (can do anything)
2. God is omnibenevolent (is wholly good)

Therefore, God would do ANYTHING (since he can) to get rid of evil (because he's omnibenevolent). But evil does exist. How can this be explained?
==============================================


Nebula, He gave his son to die for sin. This is Him doing "anything he can" to rid the universe of evil. Jesus did not just enter human form, but human time. This was a bold plan God executed (pardon the pun). You must remember that to us human existence is lasting a "long time". But on God's timetable human existence is a mere blink of an eye. A brief moment. God DID rid the universe of evil. We are in the middle of a theistic millisecond, which to us takes thousands of years to pass.

-Mike
 
Rowan, it's literature alright, but since none of the authors claim authorship and all cite the same source, the content becomes more than a coincidental theme.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Evil does exist. The world belongs to evil -- death. The death of a loved one isn't God's work, it's the result of evil.
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Sorry, but when God created humans, he knew we would all die from the start. Otherwise why do we not have eternal life on earth, but do in the afterlife? Because death is not evil, it just is.

Death is the work of God, he created the bodies' beginning and the bodies' end. When you say evil causes death do you mean Satan?

If so, didn't people like Noah, all die before Lucifier's betrayal?
 
Re: No contradiction...

Originally posted by Ekimklaw
You must remember that to us human existence is lasting a "long time". But on God's timetable human existence is a mere blink of an eye. A brief moment. God DID rid the universe of evil. We are in the middle of a theistic millisecond, which to us takes thousands of years to pass.

Sorry, but this time-dilation argument doesn't fly, Mike. Even if you accept that God has acted so that eventually all evil will be eliminated, it doesn't change the fact that evil exists now, no matter how brief it's existence from God's perspective. It also ignores that, accepting that God is omnipotent, he could eliminate evil completely causing it to never exist in the first place.

~Raithere
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Rowan, it's literature alright, but since none of the authors claim authorship and all cite the same source, the content becomes more than a coincidental theme.

Where is it exactly that all the authors cite the same source? Seems to me they are all independently written... I believe it was the RC Church that initially claimed that all the canonized books were divinely inspired not the authors themselves. The church also saw fit to determine which books were not divinely inspired.

~Raithere
 
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