Contradictions in the Nature of God

God has never spoken to me in a human voice or gave me a layout of His plans on paper. As when He spoke to Moses, God wasn't in a storm or an earthquake, but in the silence. I only know His will in the way He guides me through my life. His will is that we live like people saved from sin, and not like people enslaved by it. As a result I can testify to His presence in my life, even while I am still basically the same person I have always been. The difference is living under His mercy.

You cannot look at certain events and say "God did this" or "God didn't do that" if you don't believe in God - otherwise you would also have to look at everything and at the same time say God "did" the world. Say for instance God "caused" Sept.11, how can bin Laden take responsibility for it? Does that mean bin Laden is god? We know that terrorists, and people, do bad things, and even good people - some good American families for instance - back Bush's war against terrorism. And why not? It's a 'good' war isn't it?

You see, it is still a war between 'good' and 'evil', except what God says in the Bible as that we aren't just fighting against flesh and blood, but against forces greater than us. When Jesus died and rose again, He basically won the war on earth for us (the one that always ends in death), so that we can live without fear of dying, or suppressed by laws that condemn us to death (like the Shari'a law of Muslims, or even the Ten Commandments). But instead of making us free to do what we want (anarchy), we are given the responsibility of our actions, and God gave us the Holy Spirit to guide our actions.

You can't change foreign policy or terrorist activity. You can start the third world war but no-one can say that would be a good thing. The only thing we can do is pray that Bush will make the right decision, and that the real instigators of terrorism be brought to justice without having to wage war against Iraqi, Afghani, Palestinian or Israeli civilians. It will end up being a war against your own country, your own peple. Have you read the story in Time Magazine about the American who joined Al-Qaeda, how easy it is to get lost?

God wants the terrorists to change their views and listen to Him ('become Christians' so to speak). You want Him to force them to become good atheists, instead of bad mujaheddin (holy warriors). You aren't fighting God, you're fighting people who don't know God. I think God's will is that you pray for them as well as America, and maybe the past two world wars might not be repeated, and people can start living in peace.

But it's still your decision - it's your, and everybody's, free will that has to decide what happens next.
 
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Originally posted by Nebula
I just finished reading "The problem of evil" by Mackie. He says that:

1. God is omnipotent (can do anything)
2. God is omnibenevolent (is wholly good)

Therefore, God would do ANYTHING (since he can) to get rid of evil (because he's omnibenevolent). But evil does exist. How can this be explained?

The problem arises only from the author's words, not from anything else. The author is the one claiming "god is omnibenevolent". Unless you accept the author's opinion as gospel, there is no problem.
 
A good example of how we create problems based on logic, when the logic is flawed...

The two premises are incompatible;

A)Time is infinite
B)Time is 12:15pm

Therefore it should always be 12:15pm...
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
I think God's will is that you pray for them as well as America, and maybe the past two world wars might not be repeated, and people can start living in peace.

As long as man lives, peace can't. War has always been, and will always be around as long as man lives.
 
Oh, come on, Adam

The problem arises only from the author's words, not from anything else. The author is the one claiming "god is omnibenevolent". Unless you accept the author's opinion as gospel, there is no problem.
Adam, you win the NitPicking Award. There are several prizes to choose from. Take your pick, you nit ... ;)

At any rate, don't you think you're being just a bit too exacting here?

One can find the assertions that (A) god is omnipotent, and (B) god is good, among Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Quakers, Episcopals, Seventh-Day Adventists, ad nauseam.

The entire theology of the Devil is dependent on the notion that God is omnibenevolent. Otherwise, there is no use for the Devil. Given the consistent presence of the Devil in Christianity, I'd say it's fair to point out that omnibenevolence is a point held by many, many more than Mackie.

I always wonder what the point of finding textual support is if people are just going to say, "But that's only one source". Think of it this way: I'm reading Savage Future by Ken Wade in my spare time. It's an awful book. But were a Christian has challenged me to demonstrate that Satan was in the Garden of Eden (a critical question in a discussion of the salvation politic), I find Mr. Wade ridiculing the infidels and Christians alike who would claim that Satan wasn't in the Garden of Eden. And, among Christian bookstores, his books occasionally achieve bestseller status. Now, I could have an argument about redemption, and a Christian could ask me who says Satan was in the Garden of Eden, and I could provide this author, and point out that his views are well-enough accepted to sell large numbers through the Seventh-Day Adventist church ... I could in fact build an argument that he has hundreds of thousands of readers, and yet someone might dare to call me out and say, "But that's only if you accept the words of this one author."

Next time, try a sweater.

I mean, look at some of my posts. I try to account for such questions from time to time, with the result that people tell me my posts are too long, and some even get pissed off about it (Mike, I'm looking in your direction ....)

It's rather funny ... it seems like some people would rather discuss anything but the topic.

So come on, man. Why bother wasting the space like you did?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
The author says:
1) God is all powerful.
2) God wants everything to be good.
3) Why are things bad?

The author is presenting a paradox. However, that paradox only exists if you accept points 1 and 2. Do the three (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) religions accept point 2? Or do they generally go with the "I am a jealous god" and rains of fire and brimstone stuff?
 
It's a matter of perspective

The author is presenting a paradox. However, that paradox only exists if you accept points 1 and 2. Do the three (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) religions accept point 2? Or do they generally go with the "I am a jealous god" and rains of fire and brimstone stuff?
Well, see, that's the problem. It's a little from Column A, a little from Column B. See, the fire and brimstone and jealousy ... that's all good, or so I hear. But people do have a limit. As I mentioned, the Devil. When they just can't stomach that something is good, they always have a scapegoat to blame it on.

The sad thing is that an Islamic tale tells of Satan being cast down for merely following orders. God said bow before no other, and Satan did not prostrate himself before Adam. Whoops.

But it's all good. You know.

I know it's hard to believe, but it really is about that stupid.

The author's presented paradox is acceptable. There is the fact that if such beliefs have no meaning or stake in your life, that's great. Why should the author sell you the idea just to refute it? There's enough of an audience out there that will identify with those conditions as to give him the potential to be a bestseller until Judgment Day either comes or doesn't. When the alien anthropologists look back at the wreck of the human race, their research on the Abramic religions will point to reliance on the omnipotence and goodness of God.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Tiassa, I believe the Islamic Allah is a God that punishes and does it well. I can understand that story, because they understand God as one having to be feared and whose judgement is harsh and unreasonable. Even in the Christian tradition, there are examples of God being described as unreasonable (eg. Job). On the other hand it is also presented that He is unreasonably gentle and forgiving (eg. Jonah).

God is a living being, not a preprogrammed AI. He also makes decisions based on circumstances. Satan got what he deserved (I don't understand why anyone would defend him, unless you associate with evil). But God does have an agenda: to protect his people and keep His promises to them, as is explained in 2 Peter 2 (NIV):

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[3] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[4] and despise authority...
[I got it here]

If you do believe in God, this is a story of divine intervention, where God takes care of you no matter what your circumstances. We are all 'unrighteous' under laws, both human and divine, but the gospel is that Jesus has stepped in to free us from that judgement. It doesn't make me somehow 'holier than thou', but it changed what I fear, and the way I think.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
A good example of how we create problems based on logic, when the logic is flawed...

The two premises are incompatible;

A)Time is infinite
B)Time is 12:15pm

Therefore it should always be 12:15pm...


Sorry, but the incompatibility is only because you premises are poorly defined.

A) Time is infinite. - Actually this is quite questionable itself but ignore that for the moment and lets run with it. What you are saying here is that the dimension of time is infinite, without beginning or end.

B) Time is 12:15pm - What you are actually saying here is the time is currently 12:15pm. What you are referring to here is a point within a dimension.

There is no more contradiction here than in saying A) The room is 30 feet wide. B) I am standing 10 feet from the north wall of the room.

Helpfully,
~Raithere
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
My point exactly. There's no argument because the logic is flawed...


You example was flawed. I don't see the same problem in the following, perhaps you could point it out:

1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omnibenevolent

Therefore evil cannot exist.

I'm sure that if God did not permit people to do evil, we would all be trapped in our own bodies, like robots, unable to rebel against the tyranny called 'good' enforced upon us - forced acceptance can't be called acceptance!

Obviously then it is more important to God that we have free will than be "Good". Otherwise he would eliminate free will and just make us Good.

~Raithere
 
Originally posted by DeSeRt RaT UK
As long as man lives, peace can't. War has always been, and will always be around as long as man lives.

DESERTRAT , YOU AND FRENCHEEZ ARE THE MOST INTELLIGENT PEOPLE I MET HERE, the rest are cone heads and LIKES TO BRAINWASH THEMSELVES WITH "THERE IS NO PROOF OF GOD" AND PUT THOSE WORDS IN MY MOUTH OVER AND OVER WHEN I NEVER SAID THAT, They are so faithfull to a blind faith, a proof less belief (atheism), why dont u guys be that faithfull to God and u can get something out of it better than ETERNITY IN HELL.
 
Muscleman: No one else is saying anything so it's seems to be up to me to point out that you aren't doing Christianity (or God) any favours by condemning everybody to hell because they don't listen to you.

If nobody's listening, stop talking. AND STOP SHOUTING. You might as well stand on a street corner somewhere hitting people over the head with a Bible for the good it would do.
 
Jenyar

Thank you ....

(And I am giving your post consideration ... sorry for being so long by it.)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Originally posted by Raithere
Originally posted by Jenyar
My point exactly. There's no argument because the logic is flawed...


You example was flawed. I don't see the same problem in the following, perhaps you could point it out:

1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omnibenevolent

Therefore evil cannot exist.
God is Almighty. True. And God is infinitely capable of doing good, but not limited to doing what you think is good. He reveals His justice and His nature in the Bible - that's why it's worth studying. If He was limited to your definition of "good", He would be human, not God.

The hard part of believing (from a human perspective) is trusting that God knows what is good for you. That way you put your sense of what's wrong with the world to good (by God's definition) use.


I'm sure that if God did not permit people to do evil, we would all be trapped in our own bodies, like robots, unable to rebel against the tyranny called 'good' enforced upon us - forced acceptance can't be called acceptance!

Obviously then it is more important to God that we have free will than be "Good". Otherwise he would eliminate free will and just make us Good.

~Raithere

Obviously. That's why He gave free will. But since God gave us something as powerful as free will He wants us to use it responsibly and with love. If you don't want to love then it's no use believing. If you want to love, you're already halfway there.

It comes down to your salvation and God's love for you.
 
1) The money M you spend with a woman W is dependent on how much time T you spend with her W=T×M
2) Time T equals money M T=M
3) If women W require time T and money M, and time T equals money M... W=T×M=M²
3) Money M is the root of all evil E M=√E
4) If women W equal money M squared, and money is the root of all evil, then... W=M²=(√E)²=E
5) From this we come to the conclusion that women W do in fact equal evil E W=E

Therefore, women are evil!

To a bum on the street this may seem logical, but it isn't, which is fairly obvious to me and hopefully to you as well.
 
*Originally posted by Raithere
I don't see the same problem in the following, perhaps you could point it out:

1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omnibenevolent

Therefore evil cannot exist.
*

The two statements are contradictory.
 
Originally posted by tony1
*Originally posted by Raithere
I don't see the same problem in the following, perhaps you could point it out:

1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omnibenevolent

Therefore evil cannot exist.
*

The two statements are contradictory.

Tony1, get your sorry ass of these forums. You're almost as bad as Muscleman, except you can spell and you enjoy throwing bible quotes to nonbelievers.
 
Not so fast, GB-GIL

My own opinion of Tony1 notwithstanding, don't you think you're being a little bit harsh? After all, some people have told me they think he's quite intelligent, and I do recall Xev, at least, praising his wit and pith.

No, wait ... wait ...

Strike that.

I forgot how hard I laughed at the notions of wit and pith. So ... yeah ... have at it. I'll just be grinning over in my corner.

Sorry to bug you, GIL ...

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
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