Comparison of Religions -- Please Help with Chart

[spidergoat]

Of course you don't think it's difficult. You are an embodiment of the Christian worldview. You want it all spelled out like Christianity- here is the belief, here is what you do to follow it. I do have an agenda, which is to show how totally different the eastern religions are compared to the ones of the west. The beliefs of Buddhism, for example, are almost irrelevent to the central thing, which is the personal experience of enlightenment. The beliefs are experimental in nature, not central to the essence of it.

Western music like western religion usually goes like this- here is the system of notation, here is the instrument, play the notes in the correct order and that's it. Eastern religion is more like- listen to me play, get the feel of it, and try it yourself, and you may do it your own way.

When the basic assumptions are so different, there is little common ground for a chart form to be suitable.

To be helpful, I would suggest only one question.
What is the religion about?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

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M*W: Woody, there are several web sites with religion statistics that are not as pretty and simple as pie chart, but I believe they have a more accurate and current compilation of statistics. Here's a few:

religionstatistics.bravehost.com/statamer1.htmhttp://religionstatistics.bravehost.com/statamer1.htm

members.aol.com/nogodperiod/research.htm http://members.aol.com/nogodperiod/research.htm

There are many sites out there, but these two are the best I could find.

Medicine*Woman

 

[Woody]

MW

thank you for your links. I will look into them.

S/G,

Of course you don't think it's difficult. You are an embodiment of the Christian worldview. You want it all spelled out like Christianity- here is the belief, here is what you do to follow it. I do have an agenda, which is to show how totally different the eastern religions are compared to the ones of the west. The beliefs of Buddhism, for example, are almost irrelevent to the central thing, which is the personal experience of enlightenment. The beliefs are experimental in nature, not central to the essence of it.

I believe everyone should be given their fair day in court- if that's christian of me then so be it.

Might I suggest that the questions be rotated based on theme, and commonality. For example:

If you were a non christian that never heard much of anything about christianity, what would be the first 10 questions you asked? Likewise, I have given my 10 questions to them? I don't see why this is unreasonable.

Example: Christians and Muslims do not believe in reincarnation, Hindus do believe in re-incarnation,

Let's give the Hindu a chance to ask it his way: What does a good christian become in the next life, a cow, a horse, a bird, or what?

Christian Answer: a christian does not come back to earth after he dies, rather he goes to a place called heaven to live forever. It is not a matter of the good things or the bad things he did in this life.

Let's let the Hindu ask another one: How many gods does christianity believe there are?

Christian Answer: Many gods are in this world, but only one is worthy of worship, and his name is Jesus.

I recommend that you come up with about 10 good questions that highlight the larger points in the eastern religions. Isn't that fair enough?

I ask these questions because I am a little more familiar with Hinduism. I even thought about being a Hari Krishna a long time ago.

 

[Woody]

By the way, here is the latest chart:

 

[Yorda]

There are as many religions as there are people. Hinduism is a religion made up off several small religions. Hindus don't actually believe in several gods... these many gods are aspects of one "God" (like all the infinite colours are aspects of one light) It's pretty rare that you'll be born as a lower lifeform in your next life... you can even be born as a tree... that's why some animals also have to suffer... because they've once been humans. Hinduism includes "a human manifestation" - Krishna... the 8th incarnation of Vishnu.

 

[Woody]

Yorda said,

There are as many religions as there are people. Hinduism is a religion made up off several small religions. Hindus don't actually believe in several gods... these many gods are aspects of one "God" (like all the infinite colours are aspects of one light) It's pretty rare that you'll be born as a lower lifeform in your next life... you can even be born as a tree... that's why some animals also have to suffer... because they've once been humans. Hinduism includes "a human manifestation" - Krishna... the 8th incarnation of Vishnu.

thanks Yorda, any information is indeed welcome. Please try to stick with the latest rev level on my posts, that way you get the most up to date information.

Hinduism is a religion made up off several small religions.

These differences will be handled at the sect level, Christianity has the same difficulties, and I know how to handle the presentation of christianity: ie what does seventh day adventist believe? Jehovah's witness? Pentecostal? Calvinist? Arminian? Mennonite? presbyterian? baptist? church of the Nazarine? AME zion? etc etc etc

 

[okinrus]

There's a number of problems with your presentation. Catholics don't believe you can "pray people out of Hell," nor do they believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with the son as a lesser God, which is similar to heretical Aryian beliefs. I don't understand your division into Texus Vaticanus and Textus Receptus. The Textus Receptus was compiled by Erasmus, a Catholic with Protestant leanings, and was used to create the KJV, but the Textus Vaticanus is one of the oldest sources of the NT, I believe, and modern Biblical translators will use many of the oldest texts. Catholics don't necessarily believe other relgious were created through demonic influences. Catholics don't believe "Heaven is reached by Salvation through Jesus Christ and other practices." Jews don't believe the Messiah will be divine.

 

[Woody]

okinrus,

Catholics don't believe "Heaven is reached by Salvation through Jesus Christ and other practices."

What, then do they believe gets the job done?

," nor do they believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with the son as a lesser God, which is similar to heretical Aryian beliefs.

Do they believe Jesus was created? I think they do, hence I have modified the model. Doesn't the vaticansus call Jesus "A" son of God rather than "The" Son of God. "A" son of God is like any other saint.

Catholics don't believe you can "pray people out of Hell,"

Yet their priests have taken large sums of money to do just that, have they not?

Jews don't believe the Messiah will be divine.

Some do not believe there will even be a messiah. I would have to ask a Jew to know for sure.

My latest chart:

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Woody: "I believe everyone should be given their fair day in court- if that's christian of me then so be it."
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M*W: Hmmmm... "...fair day in court..." eh? Your comment suggests your ulterior motive for creating this 'chart.' Your intent is to provide prejudicial 'proof' to try and convince everyone else that they will be judged according to your Christian beliefs! What a totally fanatic fundamental you are!

 

[okinrus]

What, then do they believe gets the job done?

Well, the divide between Protestants and Catholics on this issue really isn't there. Catholics believe only through Christ, so do Protestants. The difference really is that Catholics believes to fullfill salvation through Christ, a believe must align his life, including works, to be through Christ. Most Protestants believe this too--sort of--but say a believer's works automatically are through Christ when a believer only has faith.

Do they believe Jesus was created? I think they do, hence I have modified the model.

No, they don't. Catholics believe in the Trinity, that Jesus is divine.

Doesn't the vaticansus call Jesus "A" son of God rather than "The" Son of God. "A" son of God is like any other saint.

Again, the Vaticanus is an old Greek text, named because it's stored in the Vatican. I can't specifically comment on what it says--I don't know Greek--but I can't imagine the Vaticanus saying Jesus was a son of God. You're probably confusing the Vaticanus with the Johovah witness' New World translation, where they translate the versus at the beginning of John 1 to say "A god."

Yet their priests have taken large sums of money to do just that, have they not?

No, Hell an eternal punishement, properly speaking. You're confusing Hell with Purgatory. In Luther's time the Pope sold indulgences, the idea being that sinners would perform acts of charity by giving money to obtain the indulgences. Bad idea, they were abused. So sometime after, I don't know when, the Catholic Church stopped the selling of indulgences.

Some do not believe there will even be a messiah. I would have to ask a Jew to know for sure.

It's debatable whether these are even Jews. It's not a standard Jewish belief.

 

[Woody]

MW:

"...fair day in court..." eh? Your comment suggests your ulterior motive for creating this 'chart.' Your intent is to provide prejudicial 'proof' to try and convince everyone else that they will be judged according to your Christian beliefs! What a totally fanatic fundamental you are!

You very odviously don't live in the USA. In the USA, the court system is the place where you go to fight for the preservation of your human rights. You do it with petitions and drives. That is how the general public gets involved in the judicial process.

This is not a trial, it is a formal presentation of evidence under due process of examination. If you find the examination wanting, then state your concern in a specific fashion, so that a remedy can be provided. Is that fair enough, or tell me specifically what is fair enough?

MW

It looks like you'd rather have everyone in ignorance concerning religion, especially concerning christianity. Isn't someone allowed to make that decision themself instead of having you to do it for them? Gee Wheez, what a controlling grandmother you are!

Is it appropriate to discuss religion ideas on a religion forum, or would that be breaking all rules of sensibility according to you?

 

[Light Travelling]

I am trying to complete a comparison chart and I want unbiased information. Please help me complete the questions for the other faiths. It would help if you state which faith you are (if any). I am a Christian.

Again, I am looking for objective information. That is the reason I am proposing the chart system. Nobody has presented this kind of evidence to my satisfaction without distortion and half-truths. Let's see if sciforums is up to the task.

In the table, each religion is represented as a group, and I understand there are differences within the sects in each religion. The answers apply to the majority belief held by each religion.

On this particular thread please try to give respect to those who have differing opinions from yourself. I will modify the table according to your input.

Thank you

This is lazy and superficial.

Read the books / scriptures for yourself, with an open mind and draw your own conclusions. Do not let anyone on this website interpret them for you. Escpecially not me.

Members of religious groups do not necesarilly interpret the founders teaching correctly.

Think for yourself.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Woody: MW:

You very odviously don't live in the USA. In the USA, the court system is the place where you go to fight for the preservation of your human rights. You do it with petitions and drives. That is how the general public gets involved in the judicial process.
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M*W: What difference does it make where I live? That has nothing to do with anything. I may not have lived my entire life in the USA, but I am an American born and bred. I am also quite familiar with the American judicial system. Let me correct you on something. It is not always the "court system" where one goest to fight for their "human rights." The court system is set-up so one can fight for their "legal rights." One's legal rights need be established before they can be fought for within the legal system. The establishment of one's legal AND human rights requires the positive action of the body of the legislative process of the State and US Government. The general public can make this possible by petitions and drives and the lobby process. Unfortunately, the human rights violations that occur in today's world do not all fall under the auspices of the US Government. Again, that process requires the positive action of our legislative body. With that said, it is crucial that we as a nation speak out loudly about human injustices so our voices will be heard. However, there is separation of Church and State in this country. No one religion is superior to another religion nor would our legislative body presume such a cause. The very fact that you have brought up the "court system" in fighting for "human rights" shows your ulterior intent for making your chart! You've stepped on this banana peel and suffered a Freudian slip! Just how dumb do you think the members of this forum are?
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Woody: This is not a trial, it is a formal presentation of evidence under due process of examination. If you find the examination wanting, then state your concern in a specific fashion, so that a remedy can be provided. Is that fair enough, or tell me specifically what is fair enough?
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M*W: "This is not a trial," you said, but why are you comparing your "formal presentation of evidence under due process of examination" if this is "not a trial?" Unbiased studies of the same nature have already been done by statisticians. Why would anyone think a chart drafted by a Christian could be unbiased? That's the same thing as Brer Rabbit being thrown into the briar patch! He got just what he wanted, while he fooled Brer Fox into throwing him in the briar patch. Your whole premise for your chart is biased toward all religions other than fundamental Christianity! You've already set the stage to be adverse to Catholicism with your faulty preconceived beliefs about Catholic doctrine! Therefore, you are not researching the facts on your own, you are asking those members of other religions to post their comments about their own religions. If you do not have a combative interest in religious variations, why are you asking other members of this forum to provide you with details of their beliefs? This clearly shows your intent! Unbiased research has already been done and published on the Internet. Your efforts to cause dissention on this forum are quite obvious. Instead of waiting until the Catholics provided you with their information, you already had them pegged for what YOU thought was their absolute doctrine! I suggest that if you are so interested in what other religionists believe, read a book or two or a hundred. The information you seek has already been published for ages. However, I think your intention was to incite "holier-than-thou" Christian-biased arguments on this forum.
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Woody: MW

It looks like you'd rather have everyone in ignorance concerning religion, especially concerning christianity. Isn't someone allowed to make that decision themself instead of having you to do it for them? Gee Wheez, what a controlling grandmother you are!
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M*W: Just the opposite. I would have everyone learn everything they could about religion -- "especiallly concerning christianity." As an atheist, I still read everything I can about Christianity so I will be an expert on what I DON'T believe. It only reinforces what is truth for me. Everyone should be allowed to make their own decision. Right there you have proven you are trying to compete with me regarding my beliefs! I make no decision for anybody but myself. I don't care what others believe. What I do find offense with is your bias toward Christianity -- and the fact that you are trying to impose your beliefs on the rest of us -- and the way you're going about doing it. If anyone on this forum is interested in learning more about Christianity, they are free to surf the Internet or visit a bookstore or a Christian church. No one, not even the Christians on this forum, needs to have your stupid made-up biased chart presented as fact to them. There are millions of reliable resources at our fingertips. You're just one fanatical Christian who, in fact, is not that knowledgeable about anything except what you have been brainwashed to believe. If you truly wanted to learn about other religions, you would do the research yourself and not rely on the opinions of others. In court, that would be "hearsay."
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Woody: Is it appropriate to discuss religion ideas on a religion forum, or would that be breaking all rules of sensibility according to you?
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M*W: Discussing religious ideas on a religion forum is what this forum is about, but you are not doing that. You have admitted that you are creating "a formal presentation of evidence under due process of examination." You imply that what you will present will be a true and legal presentation about Christianity ONLY. You would blindly accept what others believe about their religions, which may be factual, but that's NOT what you are looking for. You are looking to twist, turn and skew, anything and everything about religions other than Christianity. Otherwise, you wouldn't have even bothered to accumulate such information. This type of research has already been done WITHOUT BIAS. You've already proven your prejudice toward other religions. Why would anyone with any sense bother to read what you plan to "formally present?"

 

[Woody]

MW,

The very fact that you have brought up the "court system" in fighting for "human rights" shows your ulterior intent for making your chart!

Yeah, I figured a statement like that might bring the worst out of somebody. You are reading more than what was meant.

If you do not have a combative interest in religious variations, why are you asking other members of this forum to provide you with details of their beliefs?

I would just like to understand their religion in a comparitive study, is there somethin wrong with that?

Who should be the unbiased project manager for this effort -- you?

Unbiased studies of the same nature have already been done by statisticians.

Show me their results and I will cease and desist (another court term).

You've already set the stage to be adverse to Catholicism with your faulty preconceived beliefs about Catholic doctrine!

I am all ears for the corrections that need to be made. You have any? By the way, I thought you hated the church you came out of, wasn't it catholic? So will you defend it and make yourself a hippocrite? Geez, make up your mind silly woman!

This clearly shows your intent! Unbiased research has already been done and published on the Internet.

You aren't trying to encourage me are you? What are you afraid of -- the truth about religions? Show me these unbiased results --and give me something besides garbage threads like the last ones you gave.

I suggest that if you are so interested in what other religionists believe, read a book or two or a hundred.

I don't have time for it. I would rather ask someone some questions about what they believe. I don't trust books to give accurate information on this subject.

M*W: Just the opposite. I would have everyone learn everything they could about religion -- "especiallly concerning christianity."

Good, then why don't you start explaining instead of complaining.

If you don't have anything of value to add to the conversation then I will choose to just ignore you.

 

[Woody]

Light Traveling,

This is lazy and superficial.

Read the books / scriptures for yourself, with an open mind and draw your own conclusions. Do not let anyone on this website interpret them for you. Escpecially not me.

Members of religious groups do not necesarilly interpret the founders teaching correctly.

Think for yourself.

If anyone asks me a question about my religion I will be more than happy to explain it. I am not ashamed of what I believe.

I have a lot more experience with the bible than they do. What is expertise for anyway? Thinking their religion for myself is -- biased -- biased -- biased. I am assuming I understand what it is like to be them - and this is a very poor assumption. How can somebody tell me what it is like to be a christian if they have never been one themselves? That is a ridiculous joke! It's like a blind man telling me what it is like to see.

 

[Woody]

By the way, when I get the table completed I plan to have it reviewed by religious scholars from each religion. I will go to their forums to get the information I want.

Here's the latest rev:

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Woody: Yeah, I figured a statement like that might bring the worst out of somebody. You are reading more than what was meant.
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M*W: I read exactly how and why you chose to make your stupid chart.
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Woody: I would just like to understand their religion in a comparitive study, is there somethin wrong with that?
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M*W: You can ask what people believe so you will "understand their religion," but you will get exactly what you asked for -- what they believe and not necessarily the true doctrine of anyone's religion. There is just too much room for human error.
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Woody: Who should be the unbiased project manager for this effort -- you?
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M*W: I have no interest in participating in such a scam. I am an atheist. End of story.
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Woody: Show me their results and I will cease and desist (another court term).
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M*W: I posted two web sites full of religious statistics which are more updated than adherents.com. If you don't look at them, that's your problem.
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Woody: I am all ears for the corrections that need to be made. You have any? By the way, I thought you hated the church you came out of, wasn't it catholic? So will you defend it and make yourself a hippocrite? Geez, make up your mind silly woman!
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M*W: I have stated my opinions on why your chart would be biased. Just because I am no longer a Christian doesn't mean that I don't understand Catholic doctrine! I just don't believe in it anymore, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm well aware of what they teach. That is not defending it. If I wanted to defend Christianity, I would still be a Catholic.
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Woody: You aren't trying to encourage me are you? What are you afraid of -- the truth about religions? Show me these unbiased results --and give me something besides garbage threads like the last ones you gave.
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M*W: Do you think you could create a more unbiased chart? Ha Ha! The links I posted can be cross referenced with other religion statistics. They all read the same. Just because you choose not to believe the statisticians' results I've posted, that only shows your ignorance.
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Woody: I don't have time for it. I would rather ask someone some questions about what they believe. I don't trust books to give accurate information on this subject.
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M*W: You sure have time to post worthless christian bullshit on this forum! You can ask people what they believe, but putting it into some kind of "chart" is ridiculous. You are obviously not a sincere person. I feel sure everyone on this forum knows that. Anyone who doesn't have the time to read nor trust some well-referenced books is a fool. You certainly qualify.
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Woody: Good, then why don't you start explaining instead of complaining.
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M*W: I have thoroughly explained to you why your project would be fruitless.
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Woody: If you don't have anything of value to add to the conversation then I will choose to just ignore you.
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M*W: Please do ignore me. Sciforums is an "intelligent community." You are not fit to be discussing religion on this forum. You are prejudiced toward other religions, and your intent to make a chart is nothing less than combative. Everyone on this forum can easily research accurate religion statistics on the Internet. Just because statistics already published don't agree with the lies you believe doesn't make them NOT SO! Your efforts are worthless. Christianity is a dying religion. Don't you read Christianity Today? That publication has addressed the failure of Christianity to lead it's adherents and has published several articles about the worldwide decline of Christianity. Before you start questioning others about their religion, you need to take a good look at your own.

 

[Woody]

MW said:

M*W: I have stated my opinions on why your chart would be biased. Just because I am no longer a Christian doesn't mean that I don't understand Catholic doctrine! I just don't believe in it anymore, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm well aware of what they teach. That is not defending it. If I wanted to defend Christianity, I would still be a Catholic

This is a big communication problem, MW, because you can't even explain what you believed as a catholic. As a result you come across as very confused, agitated, disoriented, and frightened -- like you have some kind of christian phobia. I think I came up with a new phobia here: "christophobia".

Symptoms of a christophobic:

o Frightened by a mythological or real person named "Jesus Christ"
o Can not say the word "christ". and must substitute "X" in its place
o Becomes very confused and agitated when the word "christ" is mentioned
o Is frightened that other people might aquire christlike characteristics
o Usually had some experience that involved christ and then became an atheist
o Can not think clearly in matters of religion, especially christianity, without becoming extremely emotional and defensive

I think I'll start calling athiests "christophobics", hey I like that!

Let me ask you some simple questions about what you believed or were taught as a Catholic:

Were you taught to pray to the virgin mary? yes or no
Were you taught that jesus was a created being? yes or no
Were you taught about purgatory? yes or no
Were you taught that people could be prayed out of purgatory? yes or no
Were you taught that it took more than just faith in christ to get you to heaven, that is you had to go to purgatory for a probationary period? yes or no

You claim to understand Catholic Doctrine yet I haven't heard you explain it in any of your posts. I will give you one more chance to explain, if you can not explain what you used to believe, then I must conclude that you really didn't know what you believed. Now I understand why you are an atheist, you were just confused about your beliefs, or never had any to start with. Proove me wrong -- what were you TAUGHT in the CATHOLIC CHURCH? Please be specific. Proove that you are not christophobic.

 

[Light Travelling]

OK Woody, one example of how christian practise and teaching differs drastically from original teachings of Jesus. Therefore they are misinterpreted.

Main christian dotrine is holy communion, given by a priest who blesses bread and wine.

Jesus is recorded as saying in 3 gospels. During a meal "every time you do this do it in rememberence of me / do this in honour of me".

This means every time we eat a meal - break bread and remember Jesus, the braed and wine being symbolic of the body and blood of christ, which actually means the love and teaching of christ.
The blood of christ was poured out for the world = the love of christ was poured out for the world.
It is through the body of christ that you will come to god = it is through the teachings of christ that you will come to god

(I do not have a bible in front of me so please excuse if there is a slight misquote)

It does not say anywhere in the bible that it is ONLY a priest who can give communiom WHERE DID THAT COME FROM. It doen't say it must be done on a sunday or that it must be blessed by a priest.

The priesthood tries to insert themselves in a position of power between us and god and in doing so deny us access to gad and "do not go to god themselves and bar the way for others to go to god" (bible quote)

 

[mis-t-highs]

christophobia[/SIZE]".

Symptoms of a christophobic:

o Frightened by a mythological or real person named "Jesus Christ"
o Can not say the word "christ". and must substitute "X" in its place
o Becomes very confused and agitated when the word "christ" is mentioned
o Is frightened that other people might aquire christlike characteristics
o Usually had some experience that involved christ and then became an atheist
o Can not think clearly in matters of religion, especially christianity, without becoming extremely emotional and defensive

I think I'll start calling athiests "christophobics", hey I like that!

Prove that you are not christophobic.

how old are you woody, five or six.
are you not so sure in heaven any more, that you have to resort to becoming infamous on Winace as Moron of the Millenium. do you really want your name to go down in the Annuls of History like that. how are you decendents going to feel. bet you did'nt consider that.wow some people self self self.