Controversial and Important People Related to UFOs
Bob Lazar Story
As i have stated in the past,I am trying to present an unbiased,neutral story of Robert Lazar.I have collected most of the material during my research.My Opinion is my own personal Point of view.I am rather skeptical in this case.However,i would try to present a unbiased point of view.The material will be based on plain,simple,headlong facts.If you have more of material on Robert Lazar,any piece of Evidence.Post here please.
Bob Lazar
Bob Lazar claims to have worked with alien spacecraft at a secret U.S. Government facility at Papoose Lake, about 80 miles north of Las Vegas. Lazar intially made his claims on a local Las Vegas television station in Nov. 1989. He says he worked at a facility called "Area S-4" at Papoose Dry Lake, south of the known government air base at Area 51, in late 1988 and early 1989. There he says he saw nine flying saucers housed in hangars built into a hillside. Lazar says he had hands-on experience with one of the craft and he can describe its propulsion system in detail. Lazar says he read briefing papers about the alien presence but that he saw no aliens himself (aside from a fleeting glimpse of a small figure through a window at the facility).
The core story is, almost by definition, unverifiable, since no one can go to Papoose Lake to check it out. The only thing we can investigate are the claims that surround it. If Lazar does not tell the truth about the things we can verify, how can we trust the things we can't verify?
Lazar has lied about his educational credentials and his position at Los Alamos. He claims that his records have vanished and that the government has turned him into a "non-person", but there are no specific records that can't be accounted for. Only his educational records are missing, which plainly never existed to begin with. All evidence indicates that Lazar worked at Los Alamos as a repair technician, not as a senior scientist as he claimed. There is also no evidence that Lazar has ever visited Area 51, which unlike the S-4 claim, can at least be checked out "off the record" through former Area 51 workers. Lazar says he travelled to "S-4" by way of Area 51 on daily 737 flights that hundreds of other workers take. Although he says that Area 51 was only a transfer point for him, he has been unable describe the arrivals area or what you see when you first get off the plane.
The simplest theory to explain the Lazar story is that it is completely false and that he concocted it initally to fool John Lear, who had been telling extravagant aliens-at-Area-51 stories for a couple of years before Lazar arrived. Lazar could have simply fed back to Lear a more rational version of what Lear wanted to hear. Other more complex theories say that Lazar is recounting a real flying saucer experience that actually took place elsewhere or in different circumstances, or that he is a dupe or willing participant in some complicated U.S. Government or foreign government plan. (For example, it could have been attempt by the Soviets to probe or disrupt activities at Area 51. Is so, this would not have been the most convoluted deception of the Cold War.) Motivation for the fraud remains murky, as Lazar and his primary supporter Gene Huff have ignored or sabotaged many opportunities for financial gain from the story. (Although movie options and the saucer model kit have made the story profitable for him, Lazar seems disinterested in pursuing deals.) Thanks to Huff's aggressive attacks on anyone who questions the story, it is hard to find many Lazar supporters left in the UFO community, even among those who want desperately to believe.
All lies and mismanagement aside, Lazar's is a fascinating tale, compelling even as fiction. Its restraint and long-term internal consistancy remain impressive. Lazar's straightforward explanations of his experiences, his healthy skepticism of other UFO claims and his early willingness to submit to hypnosis and a polygraph test remain intriguing. (The test was inconclusive, and the professional hypnotist believes Lazar's emotional responses to his recalled S-4 experiences were not faked.) Ultimately, Lazar's claims have prompted the world to ask, "What is out there at Area 51?"
Lazar had been recruited by the US government to work at the top secret Groom Lake/Area 51 research base better known as "Dreamland" (actually at the S4 site, Papoose Lake which is a few miles to the south of Groom Lake) to reverse engineer alien spacecraft! Here are a few things he learned.
Description of Exterior : The exterior skin of the disc is metal which is the colour of unpolished stainless steel. The "Sport Model" sits on its belly when it's not energized and not on tri-pod legs. The entry hatch is located on the upper half of the disc, with just the bottom portion of the door wrapping around the centre lip of the disc.
Description of Interior : The interior of the disc is divided into three levels. The lower level is where the three "gravity amplifiers" and their wave guides are located. The reactor is located directly above the three gravity amplifiers on the centre level and is centered between them. This center level of the disc also houses the control consoles and seats, both of which are too small and too low to the floor to be functional for adult human beings. The walls of the centre level are all divided into archways. At one point in time, when the disc was energized, one of the archways became transparent and you could see the area outside of it just as if the archway was a window.
Cutaway Diagram
The disc's reactor uses a fuel which does not occur naturally on Earth. This fuel is a super-heavy, stable, element with an atomic number of 115 and does not appear on our periodic chart. Element 115 has a twofold purpose : First, it is the source of a gravity wave that is unknown to Earth's scientists, the "Gravity A" wave. Second, it is the source of the anti-matter radiation which is reacted to provide power.
The Gravity A wave eminates from the nucleus of Element 115 and actually extends past the perimeter of the atom. The propulsion system of the disc amplifies and focuses this Gravity A wave to cause space/time to bend, much like space/time bends in the intense gravitational field of a black hole. The ability to direct gravity to cause space/time distortions allows the disc to cross vast expanses of space/time without travelling in a linear mode at a high rate of speed.
Inside the reactor, the Element 115 is transmuted to Element 116 which is unstable and immediately decays releasing antimatter. The antimatter is reacted with gaseous matter which causes a total annihilation reaction, the 100 percent conversion of matter to energy. The heat from this reaction is converted to electrial energy by a solid state, near 100 percent efficient thermoelectric generator. It is this energy that is used to amplify the Gravity A wave.
Delta Configuration:
This mode of travel is one of the two methods of propulsion used by the disc. In this mode, the disc's gravity amplifiers are in the "delta configuration" and are pulsed sequentially in a rotational pattern. This amplified Gravity A wave is so powerful that the only natural occurring source of gravity that could cause space/time to distort this much would be a black hole!
Omicron Configuration
The other mode of travel is the "omicron configuration" and is used for short range travel near a source of gravity such as a planet or star. When a disc travels near another source of gravity, like Earth, the Gravity A wave, which propagates outward from the disc, is phase shifted into the Gravity B wave, which propagates outward from the Earth, and this creates lift. The gravity amplifiers of the disc can be focused independently and they are pulsed and do not stay on continuously.
Investigation of Bob Lazar's M.I.T. Claims
by Glenn Campbell June 1993
Lazar's Statements
Bob Lazar claims to have degrees from MIT and Cal-Tech. He has also made public the names of two of his professors. Specifically, the following exchanges took place at a UFO conference on May 1, 1993:
QUESTION: Bob, could you tell us about your education. I've heard a lot of different conflicting things; I'd like to hear from you.
LAZAR: That varies widely. As far as electronic technology, my degree there is from Cal-Tech and physics is from M.I.T.
QUESTION: Did you go to Pierce College?
LAZAR: Yeah, I did. Where did you hear that?
QUESTION: A friend that said something, somebody I don't even know. I just thought, it's something I want to ask, to clear my mind.
LAZAR: Yeah, I went to Pierce and Northridge and then... I'm terrible at dates. I don't remember what date I was at Pierce, probably like in seventy-six or something I was at Pierce and then seventy-seven or eight I went to Northridge just for a short time for some classes, then I was at Cal-Tech, and M.I.T. after that.
QUESTION: ...What was the year of your graduation from M.I.T., and did you get a Ph.D.?
LAZAR: No, it was a Masters degree. The year. What was the year of graduation? Probably eighty two...
QUESTION: Could you reveal some of your professors at M.I.T. and Cal-Tech?
LAZAR: Yeah, if you want. I don't have a list of them here. Dr. Duxler I think was one of them. And Hohsfield was another.
QUESTION: Hohsfield?
LAZAR: Hohsfield. H-O-H-S-F-I-E-L-D, or something along those lines.
QUESTION: Would he remember you?
LAZAR: Oh, yeah. Hohsfield I know will.
QUESTION: These are at M.I.T. or Cal-Tech?
LAZAR: Hohsfield was at M.I.T. Duxler was at Cal-Tech.
What follows is an attempt to verify the MIT claims using local directories housed at the MIT Institute Archives and national directories kept at other libraries.
Previous Inquiries
Both Stanton Friedman and George Knapp say they have contacted MIT by phone and have been told that MIT has no record of Robert Lazar. I have not repeated this inquiry myself. I assume that such inquiries are handled by computer and that computer records can be easily altered or deleted. Printed records, however, are much more difficult to obscure.
MIT Institute Archives
The following is based on examination of various printed directories housed at the MIT Institute Archives. This library is located on the MIT campus in Cambridge, Mass., Room 14N-118, and is open to anyone claiming to be a researcher. Annual student directories, faculty/staff phone directories, commencement lists and course catalogs dating back to the early days of MIT are available in open bookshelves in the main reading room. No volumes appeared to be missing, and none showed any obvious signs of tampering.
Could these directories have been falsified? It is conceivable that a government intelligence agency could re-create a modified document that looked just as old and authentic as the original, but any such action could create much larger problems. Most of these documents were originally produced in large quantities, and there are likely to be duplicate copies scattered around the country in unpredictable places. Tampering with one copy runs the risk of detection if any other copy of the document happens to turn up. While deliberate deception may be possible, this would imply a very complex and costly operation to neutralize all the potential inconsistencies. It may be possible to eliminate all printed records for a student, but it seems unlikely you could eliminate his professors.
National faculty directories were also consulted at the MIT Humanities Library and the Tufts University Wessell Library. Falsification of the these directories seems nearly impossible, since there are thousands of copies of these publications available at libraries around the country.
Lazar's MIT Credentials
There is no "Lazar, Robert S." listed in any MIT student directory between 1978 and 1990.
These soft bound books are published every academic year and given to all students and all academic departments. Certainly, many copies must still exist in alumni attics around the country. MIT student directories are printed on low quality newsprint, which turns brown with age. It would be difficult to replace individual pages in these directories without an obvious color difference.
In the copies of the student directory at the MIT Archives, there was no visible indication of tampering on any of the pages where Lazar ought to appear. The 1981-82 student directory was also carefully searched for obvious misspellings of Lazar--"Lezar," "Lazear," etc.--with no match found. The only student listed with the same last name in the 1981-82 directory was "Lazar, Howard S." He appears in four student directories beginning 1978-79, graduating in 1982 in Chemistry. Howard Lazar's picture also appears in the 1981 and 1982 undergraduate yearbooks: He is definitely not Robert Lazar.
There is no "Lazar, Robert S" listed in any MIT faculty/staff telephone directory between 1978 and 1990.
These annual phone directories were consulted on the assumption that, as a graduate or post graduate student, Lazar might be listed as a research assistant instead of as a student. The closest entries are several people by the name of "Lazarus," none of which is appropriate.
No "Lazar, Robert S" has been found in the MIT Degree List between 1979 and 1990.
These books are published twice a year for each commencement. They list each degree recipient alphabetically and by department. The book apparently includes all degrees issued by MIT, not just undergraduate. The closest match found in the alphabetical list was "Lazar, S. R." who was shown in the department list as "Steven Roy Lazar," graduating with a BS degree in Biology on June 1, 1981.
"Lazar, Robert S" is not listed in the 1989 MIT Alumni/ae Register.
This big hard cover book is published only occasionally. Since the current one has a copyright date of 1989, it was probably assembled in late 1988. It is conceivable that if Lazar's computer records were deleted in 1988, they also would also not show up in this book. There are several people in this book with the names Lazar--as well as Lazear, Lazarus, etc.--but none are a good match.
Professor Hohsfield
There is no listing for "Hohsfield" in the current 1992-93 faculty/staff telephone directory.
Obvious misspellings were also checked for--"Hostfield," "Hohlfeld," "Ostfield," etc.--with no match. (This directory was consulted not at the MIT Archives but at another randomly chosen site on campus.)
There is no listing for "Hohsfield" in annual MIT faculty/staff telephone directories, 1980 to 1987.
Obvious misspellings were also checked for. The closest match was a "Hohlfeld, Robert G." listed as a Research Associate in Earth and Planetary Sciences in 1981-82 and 1982-83. The home telephone number listed for this person is no longer valid, and there is no listing for him after 1982-83.
In the annual MIT course catalogs, 1980 to 1990, there is no "Hohsfield," or name resembling it, listed as a professor for a physics course or in the Physics Department faculty lists.
"Hohsfield" is not listed in the 1993 National Faculty Directory
This is a comprehensive listing of all college and university faculty members in the U.S., published by Gale Research. There is also no Hostfield, Hosfield or Hohlfeld
"Hohsfield" is not listed in American Men & Women of Science.
The name is not listed in all editions examined: 1976, 1979, 1982, 1986 and 1992-93. However, this absence may not be significant, since only a nominated subset of scientists and faculty members appear in this book.
"Hohsfield" is not listed in the 1988 Faculty Directory of Higher Education.
Professor Duxler
"Duxler" is listed in the 1993 National Faculty Directory.
There is only one entry for Duxler. The entry is, "Duxler, William. Dir. of Computing, Los Angeles Pierce College, 6201 Winnetka Ave., Woodland Hills CA 91371." Pierce College is one of the schools that Lazar says he attended, and it is the only one that has been publicly verified. (Stanton Friedman has confirmed that Lazar took classes there.) Unfortunately, Lazar said Duxler was at Cal-Tech.
Lazar M.I.T. Investigation Follow-Up
Glenn Campbell August 1993
Journalistic Ethics
Since the above data could be seen as potentially damaging to Mr. Lazar, reasonable attempts were made to obtain his response. In keeping with accepted journalistic ethics, it was important that Lazar be made aware of the evidence and be given a chance to comment on it. It would be preferable that Lazar respond at length, but a "no comment" would also be sufficient to fulfill the requirements of ethics.
Unfortunately, Lazar is not easy to contact. His phone is unlisted and his address is not common knowledge. Lazar has made it clear that he does not like to deal with reporters or UFO enthusiasts, and most such inquiries appear to be handled by his friend, real estate appraiser Gene Huff.
Attempts
Immediately upon completion of the conference transcript and the MIT investigation report (both above), this reporter sent copies of both to Lazar at Gene Huff's address. There was no response for one month until Gene Huff wrote back advising this reporter to cease publication of the transcript.
We have a lot of commitments for movie, video, and literature projects and we've made certain agreements regarding marketing which you are unaware of. Your marketing plans conflict with ours. Please make this easy and take the transcript off your list of available items.
No mention was made of the MIT document.
This reporter wrote back, explaining his reasons for publishing the transcript and drawing attention to the MIT issue. This letter was sent both to Huff and to Lazar at his "unpublished" address. An excerpt:
Among the most interesting passages in the transcript are when people in the audience ask Bob about his educational credentials. Admitting that his memory for such things is poor, Bob replies with some dates and the names of two of his professors, one at MIT and one at CalTech. Since I happen to live near MIT and am familiar with the campus, I took it upon myself to look up the MIT professor and see if he remembered Bob. Unfortunately, upon arrival on campus, I could find no staff member of that name anywhere, and several hours spent in the Institute Archives seemed to indicate that no professor of that name had worked at MIT for at least the past 20 years. I also looked up Bob Lazar, as others had done before me, and found no listing in any official printed directory since the 70s. The latter discovery was not particularly distressing to me, because I recognize that government agencies have the technical capability to alter documents and delete computer records. The disappearance of a professor, however, would seem difficult to pull off, and I wondered if Bob had been mistaken on the name.
I wrote down all my MIT findings in a three-page document which I sent to Bob in the same envelope as the transcript. I expected a comment of some kind. Perhaps, he would correct the spelling of the professor's name, admit he was mistaken about the school or give me some other hint as to why I could not find the professor at MIT. Instead, what I got, a month later, was a nasty letter, not from Bob but from his spokesman, telling me to cease publication of the transcript and implying nasty repercussions if I didn't.
I cannot overemphasize how bad this looks. It is the liars who get evasive and belligerent and threaten to sue on unrelated grounds when you press them on a sensitive point. The people telling the truth aren't supposed to behave that way. Personally, I am not the sort who jumps to conclusions. I accept the possibility that a student's records could be deleted at a major university, especially one that has a lot of government contracts. I also find it plausible that a former student could be mistaken in remembering the names of his old professors; I myself cannot remember the names of mine. My credulity is strained, however, when the student's records don't exist, a professor does not exist and I get a belligerent response from the student's spokesman when I report these facts. I do not jump to conclusions. I try to let the data speak for itself, but as the data stands now, it is tempting to declare that Bob Lazar never obtained any degree from MIT.
To me, the issues of whether Bob went to MIT and whether he worked with alien craft are separate. Logically, I know that any answer to one question does not imply a conclusion to the other. Still, most people do not make such fine distinctions, and the MIT question, as long as it remains unresolved, is going to be a reoccurring problem for Bob. Matters are further complicated when Bob's de facto spokesman attempts to suppress a transcript which appears to contain some incriminating evidence in this regard. This conveys the appearance of a cover-up and virtually guarantees that this particular issue, relatively minor by itself, will always dominate any discussion of Bob Lazar in the future.
In my opinion, the MIT problem has to be dealt with directly. Belligerence and claims that the government is now eliminating MIT professors will not wash. People may not have the right to probe into Bob's private life, but degrees earned at a major educational institution are not private information. Proving a degree at MIT would help Bob's credibility 100%. Admitting no degree at MIT would certainly hurt, unless there was a good explanation, but the damage would not be as bad as leaving the question unanswered and letting someone else prove the fact.
I'm willing to go back to MIT if there is a hope of digging up better information. There are certainly countless student directories in private hands, and if Bob did go to MIT, they would provide a smoking gun. I am not interested in a wild goose chase, however, and unless there is some new input of information, my three-page document stands on its own.
Huff's reply was lengthy but shed no further light on the MIT question. The only passages mentioning MIT are as follows. (The names of third parties have been removed.)
...I know what you're thinking, it's our fault for not responding within your unstated time frame. You must remember, you are one of tens if not hundreds of people throughout the world who appeal to Bob for one reason or another. Since he never responds, it's literally my burden to respond to the worthy with my time and my expense. You see you're not the only martyr. This story has been around since 1989 for the public and you're not the first nor even the hundredth to hit us up for information or clarification, etc. To imply that Lazar's de facto spokesman is trying to suppress the transcript to hide something is quite insulting. I'm trying to stop the inadvertent spread of disinformation. You whine on and on about MIT. I never even mentioned it so you presumed I was trying to hide something. I am involved in trying to substantiate Bob's credentials from another direction. There are many people digging into the info on him from Los Alamos. After all if he worked there, they must have known his credentials when they hired him right? Anyway, some researchers just recently found out that Bob worked on beam weapons at Los Alamos and sent it to S------ F-------. Believe it or not these guys are anti-Lazar and inadvertently confirmed something that F------- didn't want to hear. He's been graciously praying that Bob is a fraud for some time, yet he remains friendly. I hope something comes of this "back engineering" of his credentials. Then people can feel comfortable and address the more important issues. So don't consider our lack of interest in your MIT search to be evasive. Others before you have done the same thing with no luck, and G----- K---- and I agree that the Los Alamos employment records are the key. Therefore we won't spend our time and energy going down that same dead end. We've been there.
I hope I've made clear that my opposition to the transcript was a sincere effort to keep the story straight, not to suppress anything. I used the term "my" instead of "our" because Bob wouldn't waste the time to respond to you and I don't want to hear more whining about me using "we". MIT is a dead end. Los Alamos is the key. I hope you can clearly see how you've used the transitive property of equality to came to your conclusions, except your variable about MIT was something you made up in your head and not based on anything I said. And correlating info on what I didn't say is how ufology got in it's present state. Too bad you've caused an adversarial situation, it may have been fun. If you have any remedies to the situation, please let me know. By the way I didn't worry about punctuation, etc. in this letter because your correspondence is always so perfect, I thought this would aggravate you. Just like answering these god damn letters aggravates me.
Regarding whether or not Lazar is aware of Huff's correspondence, Huff writes...
You seemed like someone with which I could communicate and educate so you could help us move forward but after talking with Bob this morning, I don't think that's possible. Bob and I thought it humorous that you included a copy of my letter in your letter just to make sure that Bob knew what the letter I sent you had said. He knew. He always knows.
Bob Lazar's Supporter STory for Lazar :
The Lazar Synopsis
by Gene Huff
[As posted to alt.conspiracy.area51, 12 Mar 1995.]
This is a synopsis, or maybe booklet, of Bob Lazar's story which is being offered as a ground zero for future dialogue. After coming to the internet a short time ago, I noticed that people's knowledge of Bob's story varied widely. This is an effort to increase that knowledge base so people who either support or dismiss Bob's story do it for the right reasons. Bob's story is long and complex and in this document I've tried to condense it to a manageable size without omitting relevant points. I'm going to emphasize how things looked from my point of view. I won't elaborate on propulsion systems and things of that sort, so if you want that you can get it on the Lazar Tape and hear if from Bob himself. So here we go...
In the late 1980's I was working as a real estate appraiser in Las Vegas, and still am for that matter. Bob Lazar, known as "Bob, the photo guy" to most Las Vegas appraisers operated the photo lab that serviced many appraisers at that time. Bob and I had met in 1985 and by 1988 we had become friends and began to socialize together. Bob's wife, Tracy, usually did the photo deliveries to our office and, at first, I had talked to her and seen her infinitely more than Bob. Periodically she would talk about when she and Bob lived in Los Alamos, not together, and I just presumed that he ran a photo lab down there. Bob and Tracy met when Tracy was hired to work at a business run buy Bob's first wife, Carol. Tracy's dad, Don Merck, worked at the Los Alamos National Lab (LANL from here on out) and that's how she happened to be living there. Don worked on the conventional charge that implodes and compresses the nuke material to make an atomic bomb explode.
After Bob and I started socializing, I began to notice that he knew a lot about many things. I knew that he was somewhat of an egghead because, when he would do a rare photo delivery, he would drive a Honda CRX in which he had installed a jet engine. But his knowledge base extended far beyond that. There was little he didn't know about jet engines, combution engines, electronics, computer hardware and software, etc. He even made some nitro- glycerin one day while we sat talking at the kitchen table. We later took it out to the desert and blew it up, that's how I knew it was, indeed, a high energy explosive. Eventually, I asked him why he knew all of this stuff. He said, "I've got degrees in physics and electronic technology". I said, "Well, what's the difference between you and a scientist?" He said, " I AM a scientist". I said, "Why didn't you tell me?" He said, "What did you want me to do, say hey man, I'm a scientist"? I said, "Yeah, I would have". He just shook his head and walked away. I later found out that he had worked at the Meson Physics facility at LANL.
All this time, I just thought he was some guy who ran a photo lab and just happened to have an interest in jet engines. He also had, and still has, a rail type dragster with a jet engine from one of the military's first supersonic fighters. Anyway, in time, I met: Bob's dad, Al; his mother, Phyllis; Tracy's dad Don; Joe Vaninetti, an old friend from Los Alamos. Joe's last job at LANL was melting down plutonium. He is currently completing his masters in soils analysis (soils science?) up in Utah. You'll hear more about Joe later; Melissa Crey (maybe Cray) Joe's room mate and a physicist at LANL; and Jim Tagliani, and old friend and computer & electronic tech. All of these people seemed to think Bob was a scentist and, to this day, I have no reason to doubt him and numerous reasons to believe him. Jim Tagliani actually worked with Bob at Fairchild Electronics in southern Cal where Bob was the youngest electrical engineer ever to have worked there. This was a couple of years prior to Bob's Los Alamos job.
At this point, in 1988, Bob was bored with the photo lab and had sent out resumes to various government labs to try and get back into another scientific job. Included on that list was Dr. Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb and scientific consultant to the last 5 or 6 presidents. Bob had met Teller in 1982 in Los Alamos when Teller was there lecturing. Coincidentally, at this same time, Bob's picture was on the front page of the Los Alamos Monitor newspaper. A staff writer named Terry England had done an article on Bob and a Honda CRX in which he had installed a jet engine. This wasn't the same jet CRX he had when I first met him. This article ran in the June 27, 1982 edition of that paper and in it they refer to Bob as, and I quote, "Lazar, a physicist at the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility". It's difficult to believe that in a town of 10,000 scientists, who all have egos about their credentials, the only local newspaper could refer to Bob as a scientist if he was not one, at least not without any public outrage. Anyway, when Bob arrived early to hear Teller speak, there Teller sat reading the newspaper article about Bob. Bob used this as an avenue to introduce himself and they had a short chat about jets, etc. Bob later heard Teller's speech and that was that. So in 1988 when Bob sent out all of these resumes, he thought, why not take a shot?
It had been a while since he sent out these resumes and one day I dropped by his house and asked him if he had heard any news. He said, "As a matter of fact, yeah, Edward Teller called me". I said, "Who's Edward Teller?". After he explained, I understood the importance of the call. Teller had responded by phone and said that he was no longer active, but currently worked in a chief consultant capacity. However, Teller did give Bob the name of a gentleman to call here in Las Vegas. Bob called this guy and talked to him and a short time later, someone from EG&G called Bob to set up an interview. EG&G is a company that has all kinds of high tech interests here at the Nevada Test Site. Bob threw away the piece of paper with the name Teller gave him on it. Remember, at this point in time, nobody knew what Bob was headed for and it's obvious that it would be nice to have that name now.
So Bob went to EG&G for the interview. Bob later told me that he "dazzled" them by having every answer to some pretty complex questions and he was optimistic about getting the job. This was unusual because Bob isn't one to pat himself on the back. However, dazzling them temporarily backfired because they told him he was overqualified for the job and he didn't get it. They then told him not to lose hope because they had something coming up that he might be interested in. Ultimately, they called him back and hired him to work on a propulsion project in an "outer area".
Bob reported to the EG&G building at McCarran airport, which had runway access, where he was met by Dennis Mariani. Mariani was a security man of medium build and heighth, about 35 to 40 years old, blonde hair and a tightly cropped blonde mustache. Mariani had a military look and manner, but he didn't wear a uniform. With Mariani as his escort, Bob was flown out to area 51 at Groom Lake.
At area 51, Bob had to sign a secrecy agreeement and an agreement to waive his constitutional rights, which is illegal but was made possible by an executive order with Ronald Reagan's signature on it. He also had to sign an agreement which allowed them to monitor his phone line. Bob already had "Q" clearance, which is top secret civilian clearance, at Los Alamos but he had never gone through anything like this. The clearance he was now attaining would require perpetual monitoring of his activities and would never simply be attained and forgotten about until the next review date. After some abrupt suggestions that he honor his secrecy agreement and watch his general conduct, he and Mariani boarded a bus with blacked out windows and took a 20 to 30 minute ride down a bumpy dirt/gravel road. They arrived at a base near Papoose dry lake bed know as S4.
S4 was a combination of buildings and hangars built into the side of a mountain. Armed guards were everywhere, and security was oppressive. Bob even got an armed escort when he went to the bathroom. They arranged Bob's I.D. and gave him a physical which included a test for allergic reactions to substances which were not identified for Bob. After this he was placed in a briefing room by himself to read some briefings as part of his indoctrination. As Mariani closed the door to leave Bob alone, Bob saw a poster on the back of the door. It was a "flying saucer" hovering over a dry lake bed and it was captioned, "They're Here". Bob opened the top folder on the desk and it contained 8 x 10 glossy photos of 9 different flying saucers, including the one on the poster.
To this day, no one knows why Bob was selected for this project. Bob has a comprehensive knowledge base and is an excellent problem solver, but this may not be uncommon in the scientific community. Maybe the good word from Edward Teller carried a lot of weight. It's even possible that the nod from Teller carried more weight than was originally intended, no one knows.
At this point in time, Tracy helped with the photo lab during the day and worked out at a health club and took flying lessons at night. Bob was on call for S4 and would generally be called to go out once every week or two. They said he'd be working on an on call basis until he was "brought up to speed", at which time he would work on a more consistant basis. They'd always have Bob report in the late afternoon and work evenings which allowed him to maintain the photo lab during the day. Bob was now very secretive about his job and would only tell his wife and friends that he was working on something that required clearance. He eventually did tell us that he flew into area 51 when he went to work. We had no idea what he was actually doing and, because of that, none of us were overly curious as to what his project was.
Around this same time, KLAS, the CBS affiliate is Las Vegas, had been running local news shows, featuring UFO researchers, which I found entertaining and intriguing. These shows were hosted by George Knapp, a local news anchor who is now high profile and arguably the most informative and motivating speaker on the UFO circuit. George doesn't speak as regularly as "UFO experts", but is infinitely more informed than them, especially with things ufological in Nevada. On these shows, much ado was being made about alleged UFOs and aliens at area 51. Bob assured us that there were no UFOs at area 51. As it ended up, he was telling the truth. They were at S4 and they were called "discs" and they were anything but "unidentified".
Bob had been hired to be part of a "back engineering" team. Back engineering is the act of taking apart a finished product to find out what makes it tick. In this instance, their job was to back engineer a flying disc to see if it could be reproduced with earth materials. Bob's specific job was to help back engineer the propulsion system. In subsequent trips to S4 Bob was exposed to the propulsion system on a bench in a lab, as well as the propulsion system, in place, in a disc. In a sleek disc he would eventually nickname the "sport model" Bob had to hang upside down through an opening on the floor of the central level to view the gravity amplifiers on the lower level. He eventually witnessed a brief, low altitude test flight of this same disc. He was also taught how the discs are able to distort space/time to achieve interstellar travel. The "Sport Model" disc is currently being produced as a plastic model by the Testor Corporation.
In subsequent visits to the briefing room, he read read overview reports which were used to give the diverse group of S4 scientists some idea of the breadth of the project. Naturally, they were all given in depth information regarding their own particular endeavors, but it seems that they couldn't put good scientific minds to work and compartmentalize information so much that someone wouldn't say, " By the way, aren't these flying saucers we're working on?". The scientists at S4 worked in teams and were obviously not allowed to chat in the lunch room about what everybody else was doing so apparently they gave them all a limited overview to satisfy their curiousity and keep them sane.
In these reports Bob read information about man's history and philosophy and theology and the part that these aliens, who brought the disc technology, played in these areas. Much of this information was alarming, even shocking, and it has certainly changed my life. This information, combined with the defense capabilities and possibilities of disc technology and gravity propulsion , has caused this to be the most secret program in history and THE pet project which the military and political elite have kept from the rest of the DOD and, for that matter, the rest of mankind.
During this time, agents from the Office of Federal Investigation, the OFI, would randomly visit Bob's house. The OFI agents are the guys who do background checks on people hired for classified positions on the Nevada Test Site, and elsewhere I would imagine. One time an agent named Mike Thigpen visited with other agents and searched Bob's house and belongings. Thigpen was witnessed there by Kristen Merck, Bob's now ex-sister-in-law and Mrs. Wayne Higdon, the wife of a mutual friend of Bob's and mine. George Knapp later asked Thigpen what he was doing at Bob's house. Thigpen claimed he had no file on it and he couldn't remember being there. He said maybe he was there asking Bob questions about Jim Tagliani, a friend of ours who was then trying to get clearance to work as an electronics technician at the stealth fighter base on the Tonopah Test Range. This was a ridiculous response. Thousands of people nationwide have been visited by investigators from the OFI or DOD to respond to questions about friends and neighbors and relatives who are in the process of getting cleared for classified positions. These agents hardly retain the right to search your house and personal belongings. Obviously, Thigpen was doing his job by not remembering being at Bob's house, even though he was witnessed there by two women who didn't even really know each other. In defense of the OFI investigators, the guys doing the background checks are not necessarily informed of the destination of the subject of their investigation. Even if Thigpen had admitted his activities at Bob's house, this would have been no sort of verification that he knew what Bob was in for. The depth of the requisite investigation may indicate the level of security clearance, but not the actuality of the subject's employment.
Around this same time, the U.S. scientists at S4 had made some sort of discovery which was a major step forward in understanding disc technology and gravity propulsion. We had apparently involved some Russian scientists to whatever degree, and rather than share this advance with them, we kicked them out. Bob doesn't know that the Russians were allowed to actually work with the hardware. They may have only been involved in the mathematical and physical theory, he doesn't know. Anyway, the Russians weren't pleased about being left out. One of the S4 scientists didn't show up for work for a couple of days and security was paranoid. They said that the KGB had a presence in Las Vegas and they were afraid that they would either abduct someone that worked at S4 or make the bribe so good that someone wouldn't be able to refuse. The S4 guy eventually turned up, but security wanted to be safe rather than sorry. They decided to make everyone in the program who flew out from EG&G carry guns from home to EG&G and from EG&G back home.
At EG&G, a female official distributed a small caliber pistol to Bob and told him that if he lost it, he'd have to pay them $500 for it. Bob said no way, because he knew this pistol wasn't even worth $500. After some discussion, Bob made them aware that he had a .44 magnum, amongst other guns, and they agreed that he would carry his own gun. However, since all of Bob's guns were purchased in New Mexico and had never been registered, they wanted Bob to register his guns so everything was legal. Dennis Mariani escorted Bob down to the Las Vegas Metro substation on the southwest corner of Atlantic and St. Louis. Bob sat in a waiting area and Mariani went in and spoke about whatever with the police official in charge. A short time later, the police official came out of the office with Mariani to make a copy of something. He looked at Bob and scoffed, "So THIS is the kid the Russians might be after?" I guess Bob wasn't the big, strong, he-man required to command this guy's respect. It's curious that Mariani would have even mentioned anything like that to a local cop. In Nevada, you can carry a gun in your car as long as it's not concealed. Your car is interpreted as an extension of your home, so Bob didn't need a permit to carry a concealed weapon or anything like that. This event has subsequently caused us to question whether or not Dennis Mariani was from Nevada.
Also around this same time something was going on that Bob didn't know about. The feds monitoring his phone line had heard Tracy talking with her flight instructor, who was teaching her more than just how to fly. She was having an affair and they knew that if Bob inadvertantly found out or if Tracy confessed, Bob could potentially become emotionally unstable. They kept him involved at S4 on a limited basis but the time intervals between calls to work lengthened and he became frustrated. This was ultimately a blessing for Jim Tagliani and me.
Bob sensed that something was wrong. They had give him a taste of honey and he had a strong desire to get back out to S4. He would hear us talking about George Knapp's UFO shows and we would wonder aloud about the actuality of the situation. In a rebellious move, Bob threw us some hints and finally decided that he would do us the favor of allowing us to KNOW, not suspect, that something was really happening. After not being called to work for some time, he broke down and told me. I understand that he told Jim Tagliani around the same time. We didn't have group meetings or anything like that. Jim didn't know what I knew and I didn't know what Jim knew. Bob was the central cog in that relationship and, though I consider Jim Tagliani a friend, we seldom socialize together unless Bob is involved.
When Bob told me we were riding down Alta drive in my car. He said that he was working at S4 on flying discs and he was back engineering the propulsion system. I was intrigued to say the least. He said one of the discs looked like it had been stood up on it's edge to have a projectile fired through it to test the integrity of the metal or something along those lines. The conversation was brief, but I remember it like it was yesterday.
I now had a million questions to ask Bob, but we couldn't talk on the telephone and, considering the state of the art in listening devices, we couldn't talk at his house either. This confirmation increased my appetite for reading UFO literature exponentially. I soon saw that no one knew what Bob knew and I was lucky enough to have him telling me. When we felt it was safe and convenient we would have discussions and he would tell me things about S4 and I would tell him things that I had read. We both found it hilarious that organizations like MUFON andCUFON named themselves by placing UFON after their initials. So we jokingly nicknamed each other Bufon and Gufon, for Bob's UFO network and Gene's UFO network, respectively. These were nicknames that, later, government agents would not find so funny.
Around this same time, Bob received his first paycheck for one week's pay even though the days had never been worked consecutively. The check was for $958.11. Bob showed me the check and I remember commenting that I thought that a senior staff physicist, which was Bob's position, would have been paid more than that. He proceeded to tell me how underpaid scientists were and I later found out that was true. I think I was the only one, other than Bob, to ever see that check. He had his eye on some electronic equipment so he decided to buy it and not tell Tracy that the check had ever arrived. In later years when people questioned Bob's W-2, I knew it was actual because, even though I didn't remember the exact amount, I knew that it was nine hundred and fifty or sixty bucks which showed me that Bob's W-2 reflected the money actually received. Later, when he left the program, the government still owed him for some time worked, a bill which remains unpaid to this day.
The next time he was called to work, the people at S4 were questioning Bob about his friend, Joe Vaninetti. They implied they might be interested in Joe and wanted Bob to get a resume from Joe and take it to the office at EG&G. On the day when Bob told them he'd have it there, he was busy and couldn't make it. Since Joe was still down in Los Alamos, Bob asked me to drop it off for him. I took Joe's resume out to EG&G and the receptionist asked me what I was doing there. I told her that I had Joe's resume and she grabbed it from me as though she was expecting it. We still don't know if they were interested in Joe or they just wanted to know more about him because he was Bob's main, but not only, Los Alamos connection. They may have heard Bob talking on the phone with Joe or something like that, no one knows. The bottom line is, they never hired Joe and his name was never brought up again.
On one of Bob's last nights at S4, he was being escorted down a hallway by armed guards and was told to keep his eyes forward. As they passed a door with one of those small square windows in it, out of the corner of his eye, Bob thought he saw a small "grey" alien standing between two men in lab coats. All three were facing a console of some sort and had their backs to the door. When he tried to turn his head to actually look and confirm his sighting, he was pushed forward by a guard behind him and told, again, to keep his eyes forward. Bob recognized it as a "grey" alien because these types of beings were shown in reports in the briefing room. To this point, he had surmised that any grey aliens had been gone since 1979, at least that's what the briefing reports implied. The sight in that room surprised him, to say the least.
After work that night, Bob arrived home and Tracy was gone, apparently to her flying lesson. He needed someone to talk to so he called me. I had been sick with the flu all that day and my wife had been nursing me back to health all that evening. I let the answering machine go off and after it beeped, I heard Bob say, "Gufon, it's Bufon, pick up the phone". I answered and he suggested that we get together that night. I explained to him that I had been sick and, after all of my wife's efforts, she would be mad if I left. He insisted and said that he wanted to talk to me about those "baby pictures". He and I had no business with baby pictures so I recognized this as code and he mentioned photos so if anyone was listening, they wouldn't be suspicious. I reminded him that I rise early and suggested we get together the next morning. I asked if he would be up at that early hour. He replied that he would probably be up all night. I told him I'd talk to my wife and call him right back.
I told my wife that something big must have been up because he was so persistent. After all, we already knew he was working on flying saucers so this had to be something big. Whatever it was he wanted to talk about was so important that he risked sounding suspicious to those monitoring his phone. I called Bob back to tell him I'd come over and, oddly, there was no answer. I thought maybe he had stepped out to get something to eat. I'd wait about 5 minutes between calls, but he didn't answer the next four times I called him. Finally, on the sixth call he picked up the phone and said, "I'll have to call you back, some people from work are here. Bob didn't call back that night, but since I had the flu, I fell asleep anyway. As it ended up, right after I had hung up with him the first time, government agents arrived at his door and wanted to know who this "Gufon" character was. To them, this sounded like a code name, not a joke. Bob explained and they stayed there and filled out a multi-page report on Gene Huff aka Gufon. We don't know if these were the guys who were actually listening to our conversation or if they had been radioed or telephoned about it. However they found out, they couldn't have been far from Bob's house to arrive that quickly.
The next morning I arrived at my office around seven. I had taken some baby pictures to the office with me, just in case. Bob walked into my office around seven thirty and motioned with his hands in an effort to tell me to watch what I said. He now knew they were suspicious of me and he didn't want to talk in my office or on my phone. It was highly unusual for Bob to ever be at my office before ten thirty or so and his face was very ruddy. He looked like he just may have been up all night. I said, "Here are those baby pictures" as I handed them to him and he said "Thanks". Since we couldn't talk, I grabbed a legal pad and wrote down two questions. The first one said, "Have you only flown in planes?", as I was thinking he might have flown in a disc. The second one said, "Has everyone you've seen been from earth?", for obvious reasons. He grabbed the pen and answered the questions Yes and No respectively. He said, "I'll take care of these baby pictures" and left my office. Just to be safe, I went out to the wetbar sink at my office and burned that piece of paper. Bob later told me the rest of the story which I've just told you. Now, in present day, when Bob is asked about this event by strangers, he explains it away by saying that it may just have been an alien doll or something along those lines which was employed just to test him. He tends to diminish this story with time, but as you can tell, that's not what he thought back on that night.
Another substantial period of time had passed since Bob had been called to work and one day I dropped by his house. He answered the door and we walked out to the sidewalk in front of his house to have a short chat. I was telling him about all of the UFO stuff I had read recently and the whole time he was looking up in the sky, preoccupied with his own thoughts. I was essentially whining that everything of substance in ufology always happened a long time ago, i.e., the Roswell crash in the '40s, the Russian sightings in the '50s. I told him that if all this was reality, there should be something happening somewhere, now, and that's where I wanted to be. He stopped looking at the sky and looked at me and said, "What are you doing Wednesday night?
Bob had had it. He was tired of them not involving him to a greater degree and he decided to rebel in an aggressive manor. He had decided to take me to the desert out off of the now infamous highway 375 to witness a disc flight test. Bob knew the tests were held on Wednesday evenings right after dusk.
The first Wednesday, March 22, 1989, we arrived right at dusk, turned our lights off, and went in about 5 miles on the Groom Lake road. Soon we saw a bright light rise above the mountains which were between us and S4. The light begin jumping and dancing around, doing step moves in the sky, then would come to a dead stop and hover, etc. It repeated this type of activity for a few minutes which was thrilling, but it was so far away, we could only see so much. This activity by the object was blatant and it wasn't our eyes playing tricks on us with starlight and planet light being distorted by the atmosphere or clouds, or anything of that sort. Eventually, the light slowly sat back down behind the mountains. Little did we know that the next Wednesday, March 29, 1989, would present us with the thrill of a lifetime. I would not generally remember these Wednesday dates, but my son was born Wednesday, March 15, 1989, so the Wednesday dates were easy to remember.
The next Wednesday, Bob, Tracy, Jim Tagliani, and I rented a Lincoln towncar to make the trip a little more comfortable. We all owned compact cars and the round trip out to Groom Lake was a killer. We arrived, turned our lights off, and went in about 5 miles on the Groom Lake road. We pulled off on a side road and unloaded our video camera, telescope, binoculars, etc. out of the trunk and we left the trunk lid open.
The disc came up around the same place but, this time, it staged a breathtaking performance. It repeated moves similar to the week before, but this time it came down the mountain range toward us. At first it seemed far away, then you'd blink and it would seem a lot closer, then you'd blink again and it would seem a LOT closer. It wasn't the same sensation as seeing a set of headlights on a car or landing lights on a jet approach you at night time. There was no sense of continual movement toward you, it just sort of "jumps" toward you and this is very alarming to your brain. Bob explained that this is because of it's method of propulsion and the way it distorts space/time and light. Bob also explained that the bright glow of the disc was due to the way it was energized. When the disc came our direction, it glowed so brightly that we thought it might explode so we moved behind the open trunk lid for protection. The fact is that an explosion was the only thing, other than the sun, that we had ever seen be that bright so that's why we suspected an explosion. As we all look back on that now, it's difficult to believe it came so close that we backed away from it. After all, it was probably still a few miles away and that fact reflects how brightly it was glowing. But the fact is, it did come that close and the event was much more thrilling than I've described here. It, too, eventually sat down behind the mountains and we left. We have never seen anything comparable to this in the sky out in central Nevada since then, and we haven't even heard other people's descriptions come close to describing what we saw. Remember, this all happened prior to the highway 375 sky watch becoming ufology's favorite past time.
The next Wednesday, April 5, 1989, we arrived shortly before dusk. On the drive out, Bob told us he had been called to go into work the next day. Numerous security vehicles were sweeping the roads that the cattle ranchers use to round-up their cattle after open range grazing. It seemed that this night, more than the previous Wednesday nights, they wanted to make sure no one was outside of area 51. We tried to sneak in using our usual "stealth" mode, but security saw our brake lights and began to chase us. We tried to beat them out to the highway, but they came from all directions and ultimately we had to stop. We told them we were simply out there star gazing, which they didn't believe for one moment. They agreed that they couldn't chase us off of public land, but simply said they would "prefer" that we retreat back up to the highway. They issued us a copy of a written warning that said we were approaching a military installation and it stated the Nevada Revised Statutes which cited the penalties for taking pictures of the base, etc. So much for those UFO researchers who say that the government won't admit that area 51 exists. If that warning isn't an admission, I don't know what is. We went back up to the highway, but we didn't leave. A short time later a Lincoln County cop named LaMoreaux pulled us over and hassled us. He took our I.D.s and radioed our identities into the security base station. It was obvious that the guards and the sherriff's office worked together. He let us go and we went back home.
The next day when Bob reported to EG&G, Dennis Mariani stopped him and told him they wouldn't be flying out to Groom. Instead, they took Bob's car and drove out to Indian Springs Air Force Base, a small, rural base about an hour north of Las Vegas. On the drive out Mariani sarcastically told Bob that when they told Bob this was top secret, they presumed he understood that meant not to bring his family or friends out to watch a disc test. He also told Bob that our shenanigans outside of area 51 had caused them to postpone a "high performance" disc test. Mariani was totally silent for most of the rest of the drive.
At Indian Springs, Bob was debriefed and reprimanded for bringing us out to watch the disc test. They didn't know we had been successful the two previous Wednesdays. They helicoptored the head security man in from area 51 to identify Bob as one of the people he saw when they stopped us the night before. They told him that if they caught any of the rest of us out there again, they'd arrest us for espionage. Bob explained that he couldn't tell us what to do and also reminded them that we were on public land. They explained that they would simply claim that we were on government land and that a judge would certainly believe twenty of them before he'd believe us. They blatantly stated that they would collectively lie to get us convicted, not that we were surprised by that. That was certainly enough to keep me away from there, at least for a while.
They also showed Bob transcripts of Tracy's phone conversations with her boyfriend/flight instructor. Bob already knew about the affair, but he was shocked to see that they had actual typed transcripts of her conversations. Since they now knew that he was aware of the affair, they considered him to be a sure candidate for emotional instability. They revoked his security clearance and said he could reapply in 6 to 9 months. They let him go back home that night, but they apparently weren't done with him yet. A short time later they called and demanded his presence back out on the Nevada Test Site, but Bob refused. He knew they had no intention of letting him go this time and he was not about to volunteer to help them out. Dennis Mariani called and threatened him but Bob stood firm.
After losing his wife and the most important job a scientist could ever have, Bob was pretty much a broken man. His concern for their efforts at retaliation caused him to decide to go on television in silhouette and tell the story of what was going on out in central Nevada. After he did that, they shot his back tire out one evening as he was driving up an entrance ramp to get on the highway. This was an extra hint at what was in store for him if he didn't shut up.
Bob had decided to work with George Knapp to expose the story. This was an aggressive move on his part to try and gain some leverage. If he went high profile, he could force them to adopt a hands off policy. After going high profile, if they incarcerated him or killed him, they would have confirmed that what he was saying was true, and that was definitely not their desire.
At this point, we all agreed that there was great power in knowing that someone was listening on the phone. People watch what they say when they suspect their phone line is tapped, but it's a much different story when you're confident they're listening. We called friends in other states and told them Bob's story. We would also imply that we had informed numerous friends and agencies by mail, something that they could not monitor. If someone actually was listening, and I think they were, we must have driven them crazy trying to figure out what was real. They had to prepare for the worst and presume we might be telling the truth. Bob was being followed by unmarked cars both day and night. I was even followed one evening.
Finally, Dennis Mariani contacted Bob and send he wanted to meet and speak with Bob on a "personal level". Bob set up the meeting at the Union Plaza casino in downtown Las Vegas. The meeting was set for 8 PM on Saturday night when there's be plenty of witnesses if anything bad happened. Joe Vaninetti happened to be in town from Los Alamos that weekend. We created a stealth plan and Joe and I accompanied Bob down to the Union Plaza hotel.
Bob entered first and, a short time later, Joe and I entered and sat down to play the slot machines as though we were tourists. Bob walked around and looked for Mariani, but at first he couldn't find him. Bob even paged him on the house phone. Finally, Bob saw Mariani approaching in a crowd of people and walked up to him. Mariani wouldn't make eye contact with Bob and walked on by as if Bob wasn't there. Bob also noticed another security man from S4 over by the wall on the other side of the crowd. Bob casually walked by Joe and I and told us what happened without looking at us or appearing to socialize with us. From a distance he then saw Mariani walk into another part of the casino.
Bob asked me to go into that other part of the casino with him, but to stay out of sight. He wanted someone else to be able to visually identify Dennis Mariani. We entered in a crowd and Bob pointed out Mariani, who was now sitting at a blackjack table. I went and hid behind a bank of slot machines behind Mariani. I was only about 20 feet from him and I had a clear view of him. He looked exactly as Bob had described him. Thirty five to forty years old, medium build, blonde hair , and a tightly cropped blonde mustache, and this night he was also smoking a slender cigar.
Mariani's manor was quite curious. He was sitting between two very attractive, very buxom, women at the blackjack table, yet he would only look down at his cards and didn't seem to be enjoying himself. This is unusual behavior for someone in the festive casino atmosphere of a Saturday night in Las Vegas. Bob walked down the other side of the blackjack pit parallel to a long bar. Mariani looked up and his head followed Bob as Bob made that walk. Since this was the only time he looked up from his cards, especially considering the other available scenery, this indicated to me that he, indeed, knew who Bob was.
Bob walked around the blackjack pit and walked right up to Mariani and said, "Well, Dennis, you said you wanted to meet and here I am, now what's the deal?". Not only did Mariani not answer, he didn't even look at Bob or acknowledge his existence. Bob said, "Dennis, what the hell is going on, what is this shit?". Again, Mariani didn't acknowledge him.
Bob came over to me behind the slot machines and we quickly formulated a plan to follow him and try and get his license number or something along those lines. Mariani was only out of our sight for less than 15 seconds, but when we looked back, he was gone. We hurried through the casino in different directions looking for him. We even checked the restrooms, but he was nowhere to be found. We went back to the other part of the casino where Joe was sitting and asked him if anybody fitting Mariani's descripton had come that way. Joe said no one who looked like that had walked by his area. We could only surmise that maybe Mariani was there to speak on a personal level and that the other security guy that Bob had spotted was a surprise to everyone, including Dennis. No one has seen or heard anything from Dennis Mariani since that night.
After this Bob proceeded to cooperate with George Knapp, who subsequently produced "UFOs, The Best Evidence". George won the UPI individual achievement award for that special. During the making of that documentary, George tried to check out Bob's credentials, including his schooling and his previous employment. George could only find a record of Bob's schooling at Pierce Junior College in California. Even Los Alamos denied that Bob ever worked there.
Bob provided George with evidence that he had worked at Los Alamos. This included the names of people he worked with, newpaper articles about him, and even a LANL phone book that listed Bob's name in it. People were apparently going to great lengths to detach from Bob Lazar. Eventually Bob cooperated with George in contacting Kirk-Mayer, the LANL sub-contractor that Bob worked for at LANL. Both Kirk-Mayer and LANL admitted that Bob had been issued a "Z number" of 094729 on May 18, 1982, but both said they no longer had any record of Bob's employment. By the way, a "Z number" is some prerequisite identification number for anyone who works at any of the LANL facilities. Bob also provided George with his W-2 from S4, however, George ran into dead ends when he tried to find who deposited money in IRS and FICA accounts on behalf of Bob Lazar. The word was that some IRS and Social Security files are also classified.
In the months that followed, ufology began to become more mainstream and much of it was due to George Knapp and others exposing Bob Lazar's story. The Rachel Bar and Grill, outside of area 51, became the "Little A le Inn" and people began running bus tours out to watch the sky over Groom Lake. George Knapp received 30 to 40 phone calls on a daily basis which involved peoples reports and questions reagarding all aspects of ufology. Journalists from all over the world were chasing Bob Lazar for interviews, and still are for that matter. Then came the brothel bust.
Bob was still a broken man, but when he had recovered enough to go out in public, he sought some comfort with a hooker. Now I don't know how this looks and sounds elsewhere in the world, but in Nevada this is no big deal. Prostitution is legal in the state of Nevada, but illegal in the counties that house Las Vegas, Reno, and Lake Tahoe. However, this is just for show and it's common knowlege that brothels and hookers in the form of escort services exist in these cities also. The police pretend to passively pursue this, but along with gambling, drinking, and entertainment, prostitution is part of the package.
Bob called a number out of the newpaper and happened upon a 40 to 45 year old madam/hooker who ran 2 to 4 girls out of a condominium project in the southeast part of town. This was an upper line condo project so don't envision some dark sleezy place engulfed in red lights. Bob went there and did his business, but before he left, the hookers were having some problems with a stereo or something like that and, naturally, Bob came to the rescue. He fixed it for them and they invited him back for a freebie.
Well, Bob went back more than once and, in time, all of the girls loved him. Bob has this unique manor about him in which he treats everyone equally. When you interact with Bob, he never gives you the feeling that he's a scientist and you're not so you're not worthy. He treated the hookers with respect, like friends and equals, and this was a breath of fresh air to them considering the attitudes they get from some people. The madam explained to Bob that she had an ongoing affair with a member of Las Vegas Metro Vice and that as long as she didn't do outcalls to the hotels, vice would turn their heads and allow her to operate. It is unknown whose interest these cops were protecting in the hotels. The madam also told Bob that she was an FBI, DEA, and Las Vegas Metro informant. Bob felt a sense of security because of all of this and proceeded to tell the madam how he could streamline her operation by installing computers, security cameras, and other electronic equipment. This appealed to her and she financed her brothel's entrance into the computer age. During all of this, something bad happened. The madam fell in love with Bob. She offered him fifty percent of the business to stay around, but once the electronics were installed, he was no longer interested. Since he wasn't really interested in her, it was a drag for him to be around and he detached himself from her and the brothel. To say that she didn't take this very well is an understatement.
So now television sweeps rolled around and George Knapp thought it would be a great idea to give his audience an update on what the now famous Bob Lazar had been up to since his exit from the program at S4. KLAS had set ratings records with George's previous UFO special about Bob Lazar and they were interested in doing that again.
When George did the interview Bob said, amongst other things, that he had installed a computer system for a local brothel. That was a bad idea. The fact that Bob had broadcast this on television reflected his naivety about the ramifications of his actions. The Las Vegas cops now had a problem. Here was a guy stating that he knew where a local brothel was and all they had to do was ask him it's whereabouts and then bust it. The problem was compounded by the fact that the brothel was run by one of their informants and they were aware of her operation.
The madam's vice buddies explained to her that they had to bust her operation because of Bob's televised admission. After all, the entire vice department didn't know about this, just a couple of vice cops she knew and did business with. They busted the place and she blamed the entire operation on Bob, probably under their advice. She had a client list of some very high level Las Vegans, including cops, and they weren't about to force her to make that public. They let her off with a misdemeanor called, "Keeping a Disorderly House", which is Nevada statute from the early 1900s. I don't think anybody even knows what that's supposed to mean. They then charge Bob with six felonies.
These cops thought they could just hang this whole thing on Bob and be done with it. They soon found out that Bob Lazar had a large following and hundreds of thousands of people were scrutinizing this story. Naturally, most following Bob's story thought this was a setup by the federal government to discredit him, and they may have been involved, but that is unknown to this day.
Anyway, under some of the most incompetent and questionable legal advice in history, Bob plead guilty to pandering and they dropped the rest of the charges. We all urged Bob to fight it but he didn't want to spend the money. This is part of his "I can do everything myself" attitude because his dad is a wealthy L.A. businessman and money would have been no problem. Bob simply won't depend on anyone, even those that love him and want to help him.
Prior to sentencing Judge John Lehman questioned how it was possible that a guy with no previous criminal record, like Bob, would have plead guilty under these circumstances. He also couldn't understand how the madam of the brothel wasn't in front of him as a co-defendant. After all, in the madam's original statement to the police she admitted having become a prostitute in 1971 when Bob Lazar was 12 years old. The judge wasn't buying that Bob coerced HER into anything. All of the judges questions and apprehensions were stated on the record, ON CAMERA, and George Knapp still has a copy of the raw footage.
Bob was sentenced to 3 years probation and community service. Ironically, he completed his community service by installing yet another computer system, this time for Clark County, Nevada. The guys down at probation would jockey for position to see who got to go visit Bob so they could talk to him and ask him UFO questions. He's now off probation and we're currently investigating the possibilities for a pardon. The whole thing was one bad dream and somewhat of a joke because there have only been a handful of pandering convictions in the history of Las Vegas and the others weren't scientists with no criminal record.
Even after the brothel fiasco, Bob was still a highly sought after interview. In 1990, I had an operation on my left leg which laid me up for ten weeks. Since Bob kept turning down people who wanted interviews, I suggested we make a video tape. He said, "Who would want to see a video tape about all of that stuff?". I proceeded to question Bob at length about things and I proceeded to write the script of the "Lazar Tape". Unless our distributors are lying to us, it has become the most highly purchased, and bootlegged, video in the history of UFO videos. The original was produced with elementary facilities and it is currently being remade, broadcast quality, with state of the art graphics and imaging. The rest of the story is pretty much history.
The story I've just presented you is in no way the totality of what happened, but it does present the basic facts. I'm fully aware of everything else that happened so I can answer questions on subjects and details that have not been mentioned here. No one knows everything so if I don't know the answer, I'll simply say "I don't know".
In this synopsis I've also given researchers, pseudo researchers, and "wanna be" researchers new tidbits to chase down and verify and to them I say "Go for it". As you have just read, Bob went public to save his own butt, not to do a favor for everyone else. This is not to say that there isn't a part of him that thinks we all have the right to know. His motive for going public should help explain to some why he is reluctant to participate in some of the the current sideshows, that was never his intent.
I'd also like to include the personal observation that people who think Bob would perpetrate a fraud are wrong. He is totally self sufficient and doesn't care enough about what other people think to waste the time to try and fool them. If I had to describe Bob Lazar in one word, I'd call him "productive". Bob doesn't watch television unless it's the news or weather channel. He doesn't waste one moment of his life preoccuping himself with irrelevant minutia like the rest of us. Bob couldn't tell you who was in the super bowl or the world series and if the baseball strike never ends it won't affect his life one bit. He's busy with one scientific project or another and he certainly isn't sitting around wondering what we're saying about him on the internet.
I know that this synopsis, in itself, doesn't prove a thing. I'm now going to write a counterpoint to the infamous "Lazar Timeline" and post that. I don't intend to refute everything that's in it, I just intend to put it in perspective. This story isn't as simple as some guy with no credentials makes some flying saucer claims and then gets busted for pandering.
I fully understand everyone's apprehensions about the lack of evidence of Bob Lazar's schooling. If I didn't know him, I would be apprehensive, too. I wish I had been around when Bob went to school, but I wasn't. Anyone who has met Bob Lazar knows that you don't know what he knows by taking 1 electronics course at Pierce Junior College in California. When George Knapp couldn't find any records on Bob, I asked Bob about it privately. I told him that if he did overstate his credentials that he should tell me and I would try and help him smooth it over. I certainly believed he worked at Los Alamos and S4, even if he had overstated his credentials. I believed, and still believe, his story is way too important to lose it's impact because of something like this. Bob stood firm and didn't change his story. I've seen him do this about other subjects and I haven't caught him in a lie yet.
Evidence is abundant that he worked at Los Alamos. In the early 80's if you worked at Los Alamos you had to have a degree or be working toward one at the University of New Mexico at Los Alamos. That's why there IS a branch of the University of New Mexico in Los Alamos. That's probably still the rule, I don't know. Since Bob was never enrolled there, obviously, LANL believed Bob had credentials.
After you've read the preceding information and after we've had some questions and answers and dialogue on internet, I think you'll have enough information to put Bob's story in perspective. I'm aware of all of the different theories about him which range from total fraud to a subject of mind control to who knows what. Most of those are based on misinformation by incompetent UFO researchers and blatant liars.
You don't need UFO researchers and other assorted characters to pass judgment for you, even when it comes to the physics of gravity propulsion and disc technology. There are numerous books available which are written to the intelligent layman and they explain how physicists know what they know and why they don't know what they don't know. If this subject is important to you then do some reading and upload your own knowledge base. I'm comfortable with whatever conclusions you draw, both for and against Bob Lazar, I understand.
The bottom line is that the only opinion that really counts for you is yours. All of our current opinions are based on the best information we have at this point in time and all of our opinions are subject to change based on new information. That's true of Bob Lazar's story, science, and life in general.
Up to this point I've responded to all of you by Email, but now I'm going to do it on UseNet so any benefit of dialogue will be available to all. I'll treat you as fairly and respectfully as you treat me. Einstein was quoted as saying "Common sense is all the prejudices you acquire by the age of 18". So use your common sense when you examine Bob's story, but remember to expand your knowledge base at the same time. Bob Lazar is 100% certain the S4 story is true. I'm 99% sure, saving 1% for the fact that I wasn't there myself. I hope my effort here will move your opinion up or down so at least it will have been worth the time one way or another. Please forgive any typos, spelling, or sentence and paragraph structure as I am not a professional writer and I haven't found spell check yet on my new word processsing program. Keep in touch
Gene Huff
Bob Lazar's Important Interviews
NOTE: Some of the interviews were simply question and answer sessions. In those cases, I took liberties of excerpting only pertinent questions and strung them together in the order asked and answered. In the case of the book and tape excerpts, there existed a certain flow, so I identified discontinuities by the notation [BREAK].
Tom Mahood (tmahood@netcom.com)
February 28, 1994
On the Record, KLAS-TV, Las Vegas, Nevada, 12/9/89
George Knapp, producer/host
Robert Lazar, guest
Lazar:
The first thing was HANDS-on experience with the anti-matter reactor.
Knapp:
Explain what that is and how it works and what it does.
Lazar:
It's a plate about 18 inches in diameter with a sphere on top.
Knapp:
We have a tape of a model that a friend of yours made. You can narrate along. There it is.
Lazar:
Inside that tower is a chip of Element 115 they just put in there. That's a super-heavy element. The lid goes on top. And as far as any other of the workings of it, I really don't know, you know, [such as] what's inside the bottom of it . . .115 sets up a gravitational field around the top. That little wave guide you saw being put on the top: it essentially siphons off the gravity wave, and that's later amplified in the lower portion of the craft.
But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.
Knapp:
Now we saw the model. We saw the pictures of it there. It looks really, really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything.
Lazar:
Right.
Knapp:
Working parts?
Lazar:
None detectable. Essentially, what the job was to back-engineer everything, where you have a finished product and to step backwards and find out how it was made or how it could be made with earthly materials.
There hasn't been very much progress.
Knapp:
How long do you think they've had this technology up there?
Lazar:
It seems like quite a while, but I really don't know.
Knapp:
What could you do with an anti-matter generator? What does it do?
Lazar:
It converts anti-matter . . .It DOESN'T convert anti-matter! There's an annihilation reaction. It's an extremely powerful reaction, a hundred percent conversion of matter to energy, unlike a fission or fusion reaction which is somewhere around eight-tenths of one percent conversion of matter to energy.
Knapp:
How does it work? What starts the reaction going?
Lazar:
Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated.
Knapp:
Automatic.
Lazar:
Right.
Knapp:
I don't understand. I mean, there's no button to push or anything?
Lazar:
No, there's no button to push or anything.
Apparently, the 115 under bombardment with protons lets out an anti-matter particle. This anti-matter particle will react with any matter whatsoever, which I imagine there is some target system inside the reactor. This, in turn, releases heat, and somewhere within that system there is a one-hundred-percent-efficient thermionic generator, essentially a heat-to-electrical generator.
Knapp:
How is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity generation that you were talking about earlier?
Lazar:
Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a tremendous amount of electrical power, which is almost a by-product. The gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's through some action of the 115, and the exact action I don't think anyone really knows.
The wave guide siphons off that gravity wave, and that's channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there are three gravity amplifiers, which amplify and direct that gravity wave.
Knapp:
In essence creating their own gravitational field.
Lazar:
Their own gravitational field.
Knapp:
You're fairly convinced that science on earth doesn't have this technology right now? We have it now at S-4, I guess, but we didn't create it?
Lazar:
Right.
Knapp:
Why not? Why couldn't we?
Lazar:
The technology's not even -- We don't even know what gravity IS!
Knapp:
Well, what is it? What have you learned about what gravity is?
Lazar:
Gravity is a wave. There are many different theories, wave included. It's been theorized that gravity is also particles, gravitons, which is also incorrect. But gravity is a wave. The basic wave they can actually tap off of an element: why that is I'm not exactly sure.
Knapp:
So you can produce your own gravity. What does that mean? What does that allow you to do?
Lazar:
It allows you to do virtually anything. Gravity distorts time and space. By doing that, now you're into a different mode of travel, where instead of traveling in a linear method -- going from Point A to B -- now you can distort time and space to where you essentially bring the mountain to Mohammed; you almost bring your destination to you without moving.
And since you're distorting time, all this takes place in between moments of time. It's such a far-fetched concept!
Knapp:
Of course, what the UFO skeptics say is, yeah, there's life out there elsewhere in the universe; it can never come here; it's just too darn far. With the kind of technology you're talking about, it makes such considerations irrelevant about distance and time and things like that.
Lazar:
Exactly, because when you are distorting time, there's no longer a normal reference of time. And that's what producing your own gravity does.
Knapp:
You can go forward or backward in time? Is that's what you're saying?
Lazar:
No, not essentially. It would be easier with a model. On the bottom side of the disk are the three gravity generators. When they want to travel to a distant point, the disk turns on its side. The three gravity generators produce a gravitational beam. What they do is they converge the three gravity generators onto a point and use that as a focal point; and they bring them up to power and PULL that point towards the disk. The disk itself will attach ONTO that point and snap back -- AS THEY RELEASE SPACE BACK TO THAT POINT!
Now all this happens in the distortion of time, so time is not incrementing. So the SPEED is essentially infinite.
Knapp:
We'll get into the disks in a moment. But the first time you saw the anti-matter reactor in operation or a demonstration -- you had a couple of demonstrations -- tell me about that.
Lazar:
The first time I saw it in operation, we just put -- a friend I worked with, Barry -- put the fuel in the reactor, put the lid on as, as was shown there. Immediately, a gravitational field developed, and he said, "Feel it!" And it felt like you bring two like poles of a magnet together; you can do that with your hand. And it was FASCINATING to do that, impossible, except on something with great mass! And obviously this is just a . . .
And it was a REPULSION field. In fact, we kind of fooled around with it for a little while. And we threw golf balls off it. And it was just a really unique thing.
Knapp:
And you had other demonstrations to show you that this is pretty wild stuff, right?
Lazar:
Yeah, they did. They were able to channel the field off in a demonstration that they created an INTENSE gravitational area. And you began to see a small little black disk form, and that was the bending of the light.
Knapp:
Just like a black hole floating around?
Lazar:
Yeah, well, a black hole is a bad analogy, but yeah, essentially.
Thursday, December 28th 1989: KVEG Radio Interview
Caller:
With the gravity generators running, is there thermal radiation?
Lazar:
No, not at all. I was never down on the bottom WHILE the gravity generators were running, but the reactor itself -- there's no thermal radiation whatsoever. That was one of the really shocking things because that violates the first law of thermodynamics.
Lazar:
In fact, I'm in the process of fabricating the gravity amplifier, but then I'm at a tremendous shortage for power. So yeah, I have even tried to do that stuff on my own.
Caller:
Is there any electronics as we know it -- chips or transistors?
Lazar:
No, nothing like that. Because of the tremendous power involved, too, there was no direct connection between the gravity amplifiers and the reactor itself.
Caller:
Are the wave guides similar to what we use with microwaves?
Lazar:
Very similar.
Caller:
In regard to the long-range method of travel, isn't a propulsion unit the wrong idea? I feel this device is creating a situation where it is diminishing or removing the localized gravitational field, and long-distance body that they're heading toward is actually PULLING the vehicle rather than it being pushed. Am I correct in this?
Lazar:
The vehicle is not being pushed. But being pulled implies it's being pulled by something externally: It's pulling something else to IT. IT's creating the gravitational field.
Caller:
Is there any relation to the monopoles which [scientists] have been looking for?
Lazar:
Well, they've been looking for the monopole magnet. But then this [the UFO force] is a gravitational force.
Caller:
What is the top speed of the craft?
Lazar:
It's tough to say a top speed because to say speed you have to compare distance and time. And when you're screwing around with time and distorting it, you can no longer judge a velocity. They're not traveling in a linear mode where they just fly and cover a certain distance in a certain time. That's the real definition of speed. They're bending and distorting space and then essentially snapping it back with the craft, so the distances they can travel are phenomenal -- in little or no time. So speed has little bearing.
Caller:
You've mentioned anti-gravity generator and anti-matter generator. Are they different?
Lazar:
It's not a gravity generator; it's a gravity amplifier. I Get tongue-twisted all too often. The anti-matter reactor provides the power for the craft and the basic low-amplitude gravitational wave, which is too low of an amplitude to do anything. It's piped into the gravity amplifiers, which are found at the bottom of the craft. There it's amplified into an extremely powerful wave, and that's what the craft is flown on. But there is an anti-matter reactor: that's what provides the power.
Caller:
I understand there's an antenna section in this device; what is the resonant frequency that that operates at?
Lazar:
The resonant frequency of the gravity wave I do know, but I don't know it off hand; I just can't remember it.
Mark:
Can you give me a ballpark, like 2,000 kilohertz?
Lazar:
I really don't remember. It's a really odd frequency.
Mark:
Is it measured in kilohertz or gigahertz or megahertz?
Lazar:
I really don't remember.
Burt:
You were talking about the low- and high-speed modes and the control factors in there. Can you describe those modes and what the ship looks like each time it is going through those modes?
Lazar:
The low-speed mode -- and I REALLY wish I could remember what they call these, but I can't, as I can't remember the frequency of the wave --The low-speed mode: The craft is very vulnerable; it bobs around. And it's sitting on a weak gravitational field, sitting on three gravity waves.
And it just bounces around. And it can focus the waves behind it and keep falling forward and hobble around at low speed. The second mode: They increase the amplitude of the field, and the craft begins to lift, and it performs a ROLL maneuver: it begins to turn, roll, begins to turn over. As it begins to leave the earth's gravitational field, they point the bottom of the craft at the DESTINATION. This is the second mode of travel, where they converge the three gravity amplifiers -- FOCUS them -- on a point that they want to go to. Then they bring them up to full power, and this is where the tremendous time-space distortion takes place, and that whips them right to that point.
Burt:
Did you actually bench-test a unit away from the craft itself?
Lazar:
The reactor, yeah.
Burt:
About how large is this, and could you describe it?
Lazar:
The device itself is probably a plate about 18 inches square; I said diameter before but it is square. There's a half-sphere on top where the gravity wave is tapped off of, but that's about the size of it.
Jim from Las Vegas:
On TV, you spoke of observing a demonstration of this anti-matter gravity wave controller device. And you made a mock-up copy?
Lazar:
A friend made one, yeah.
Jim:
I heard you speak of bouncing golf balls off of this anti-gravity field?
Lazar:
Yeah.
Jim:
And also about the candle, the wax, and the flame stood still?
Lazar:
Right.
Jim:
And then the hole that you saw appear --
Lazar:
It wasn't a hole; it was a little disk.
Jim:
Under what conditions did you see this demonstrated. Elaborate on this.
And how large was the force field?
Lazar:
The force field where the candle was?
Jim:
The force field created by the anti-matter device.
Lazar:
It was about a 20-inch radius from the surface of the sphere.
Jim:
Where was this area, just above the device?
Lazar:
Yeah, surrounding the sphere.
Jim:
Did the sphere surround the device?
Lazar:
No, the sphere sits in the center of the device. It's a half-sphere sitting on a plate, and a field surrounds the half-sphere.
Jim:
And you just place a candle in there?
Lazar:
No, no, no. That was a separate demonstration. I'm just telling you where the field EXTENDS from.
Jim:
Oh, that's what I'm curious about.
Lazar:
No, they tap the field off using a wave guide, off of the sphere. And this is a completely different setup, where they had a mockup small gravity amplifier, and there were three focused into a point, and that area of focus was probably nine or ten inches in diameter.
Jim:
They displaced this area or moved this area?
Lazar:
No, it wasn't displaced; it's just where the field was generated.
Jim:
And in there you put the candle?
Lazar:
Right.
Jim:
And that thing can actually bounce golf balls off of it?
Lazar:
No, no. The golf ball thing, again, had nothing to do with that setup. The golf ball thing had something to do with just when the reactor was energized, before the wave guide was put on or anything. We were just pushing on the field; it was being demonstrated to me; and we just bounced a golf ball off the top.
March, April 1990 (approximate time of interviews):
"Alien Contact" by Timothy Good. Published by William Morrow and Company in 1991 & 1993.
This book was also published under the title "Alien Liaison: The Ultimate Secret". Some of the Lazar info is a rehash of earlier interviews with Knapp and excerpts from his tape, however there is some new stuff and drawings by Lazar.
....The craft does not create an "antigravity" field, as some have surmised. "It's a gravitational field that's out of phase with the current one," Lazar explained in a 1989 radio interview. "It's the same gravitational wave. The phases vary from 180 degrees to zero...in a longitudinal propagation."
[BREAK]
Assuming they're in space, they will focus the three gravity generators on the point they want to go to. Now, to give an analogy: If you take a thin rubber sheet, say, lay it on a table and put thumbtacks in each corner, then take a big stone and set it on one end of the rubber sheet and say that's your spacecraft, you pick out a point that you want to go to -which could be anywhere on the rubber sheet - pinch that point with your fingers and pull it all the way up to the craft. That's how it focuses and pulls that point to it. When you then shut off the gravity generator, the stone (or spacecraft) follows that stretched rubber back to its point.
There's no linear travel through space; it actually bends space and time and follows space as it retracts.
In the first mode of travel - around the surface of a planet - they essentially balance on the gravitational field that the generators put out, and they ride a "wave", like a cork does in the ocean. In that mode they're very unstable and are affected by the weather. In the other mode of travel - where they can travel vast distances - they can't really do that in a strong gravitational field like Earth, because to do that, first of all, they need to tilt on their side, usually out in space, then they can focus on the point they need to with the gravity generators and move on. If you can picture space as a fabric, and the speed of light is your limit, it'll take you so long , even at the speed of light, to get from point A to point B. You can't exceed it - not in this universe anyway. Should there be other parallel universes, maybe the laws are different, but anyone that's here has to abide by those rules. The fact is that gravity distorts time and space. Imagining that you're in a spacecraft that can exert a tremendous gravitational field by itself, you could sit in any particular place, turn on the gravity generator, and actually warp space and time and "fold" it. By shutting that off, you'd click back and you'd be at a tremendous distance from where you were, but time wouldn't have even moved, because you essentially shut it off. It' s so farfetched. It's difficult for people to grasp, and as stubborn as the scientific community is, they'll never buy it that this is in fact what happens.
[BREAK]
According to Lazar, the propulsion system he worked on at S-4 gives rise to certain peculiar effects, including INVISIBILITY of the craft: "You can be looking straight up at it, and if the gravity generators are in the proper configuration you'd just see the sky above it - you won't see the craft there. That's how there can be a group of people and only some people can be right under it and see it. It just depends how the field is bent. It's also the reason why the crafts appear as if they're making 90- degree turns at some incredible speed; it's just the time and space distortion that you're seeing. You're not seeing the actual event happening."
[BREAK]
If the crafts look like they're flying at seven thousand miles per hour and they make a right-angled turn, it's not necessarily what they're doing. They can APPEAR that way because of the gravitational distortion. I guess a good analogy is that you're always looking at a mirage - [it's only when] the craft is shut off and sitting on the ground, THAT'S what it looks like. Otherwise, you're just looking at a tremendously distorted thing, and it will appear like it is changing shape, stopping or going, and it could be flying almost like an airplane, but it would never look that way to you.
"How close do you think you have to get before time distortion takes place?" I asked.
It's tough to say, because it depends on the configuration of the craft. If the craft is hovering in the air, and the gravity amplifiers are focused down to the ground and it's standing on its gravity wave, you would have to get into that focused area. If you're directly underneath the craft at any time there's a tremendous time distortion, and that's in proportion to the proximity of the craft.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
September 22, 1990: "Ufos and the Alien Presence" by Michael Lindemann.
Published July 1991. Available from the 2020 Group, 3463 State Street, Box 264, Santa Barbara, CA 93105. Very good Lazar interview, as well as good interviews with Stanton Friedman, Linda Moulton Howe and Budd Hopkins.
Lazar:
I don't know if I mentioned it before, but the amplifiers always run at 100%. They are always outputting a maximum gravity wave, and that wave is phase-shifted from zero to 180 degrees. That's essentially the attraction and repulsion, and it's normally at a null setting somewhere in between. It's a very straight-forward system. It looks more like a coal fired engine than very hi-tech.
Mid 1991: "The Lazar Tape", 40 minute VHS videotape
This tape, produced by Lazar is his "official" statement in the matter, done in a science lesson format. Although a little amateurish, it is still full of information and very worthwhile. Supposedly, there is a new version in the works, with full production values. Release date of this new version is unknown.
"The Lazar Tape" is available from Tri-Dot Productions, 1324 S. Eastern, Las Vegas, NV, 89104 for $29.95 + $3.50 shipping.
The following are excerpts:
...And there are two specific different types of Gravity: Gravity A and Gravity B. Gravity A works on a smaller, micro scale while Gravity B works on a larger, macro scale.
We are familiar with Gravity B. It is the big gravity wave that holds the Earth, as well as the rest of the planets, in orbit around the Sun and holds the moon, as well as man-made satellites, in orbit around the Earth. We are not familiar with Gravity A. It is the small gravity wave which is the major contributory force that holds together the mass that makes up all protons and neutrons. Gravity A is what is currently being labeled as the Strong Nuclear Force in mainstream physics, and Gravity A is the wave that you need to access and amplify to enable you to cause space-time distortion for interstellar travel..
To keep them straight, just remember that Gravity A works on an atomic scale, and Gravity B is the big gravity wave that works on a stellar or planetary level. However, don't mistake the size of these waves for their strength, because Gravity A is a much stronger force than Gravity B. You can momentarily break the Gravity B field of the Earth simply by jumping in the air, so this is not an intense gravitational field.
Locating Gravity A is no problem because it is found in the nucleus of every atom of all matter here on Earth, and all matter everywhere else in our universe. However accessing Gravity A with the naturally occurring elements found on Earth is a big problem. Actually, I'm not aware of any way of accessing the Gravity A wave using any Earth element, whether naturally occurring or synthesized, and here's why.
We've already learned that Gravity A is the major force that holds together the mass that makes up protons and neutrons. This means the Gravity A wave we are trying to access is virtually inaccessible as it is located within matter, or at least the matter we have here on Earth.
[BREAK]
The most important attribute of these heavier stable elements is that the Gravity A wave is so abundant that it actually extends past the perimeter of the atom. These heavier, stable elements literally have their own Gravity A field around them in addition to the Gravity B field that is native to all elements.
No naturally occurring atoms on Earth have enough protons and neutrons for the cumulative Gravity A wave to extend past the perimeter of the atom so you can access it. Even though the distance the Gravity A wave extends is infinitesimal, it IS accessible and has amplitude, wavelength and frequency just like any other wave in the electromagnetic spectrum. Once you can access the Gravity A wave, you can amplify it just like we amplify any other electromagnetic wave.
[BREAK]
So, back to our power source. Inside the reactor, element 115 is bombarded with a proton which plugs into the nucleus of the 115 atom and becomes element 116 which immediately decays and releases or radiates small amounts of antimatter. The antimatter is released in a vacuum into a tuned tube which keeps it from reacting with the matter that surrounds it. It is then directed toward the gaseous matter target at the end of the tube. The matter and antimatter collide and annihilate, totally converting to energy. The heat from this reaction is converted into electrical energy in a near 100% efficient thermoelectric generator. This is a device that converts heat directly into electrical energy. Many of our satellites and space probes use thermoelectric generators, but their efficiency is very, very low.
All of these actions and reactions inside of the reactor are orchestrated perfectly like a tiny little ballet, and in this manner the reactor provides an enormous amount of power.
So, back to our original question: What is the power source that provides the power required for this type of travel? The power source is a reactor which uses element 115 as a fuel, and uses a total annihilation reaction to provide the heat which it converts to energy, making it a compact, lightweight, efficient, onboard power source.
I've got a couple of quick comments on element 115 for those of you that are interested. By virtue of the way it's used in the reactor, it depletes very slowly, and only 223 grams of 115, which is just under 1/2 a pound, can be utilized for a period of twenty to thirty years.
Element 115's melting point is 1740 C.
I need to state here that even though I had hands-on experience with element 115, I didn't melt any of it down and I didn't use any of it for twenty to thirty years to see if it depleted.
[BREAK]
Now when a disk travels near another source of gravity, such as a planet or moon, it doesn't use the same mode of travel that we learned about in our science lesson. When a disk is near another source of gravity, like Earth, the Gravity A wave which propagates outward from the disk is phase-shifted into the Gravity B wave which propagates outward from the Earth, and this creates lift. The gravity amplifiers of the disk can be focused independently and they are pulsed and do not stay on continuously.
When all three of these amplifiers are being used for travel, they are in the delta configuration, and when only one is being used for travel it is in the omicron configuration.
As the intensity of the gravitational field around the disk increases, the distortion of space-time around the disk also increases. And if you could see the space-time distortion, this is how it would look....
[Draws a side-view picture of saucer hovering above ground, with field surrounding it and running straight down to the ground. Picture a disk on the end of a pole, then throw a sheet over it.]
As you can see, as the output of the gravitational amplifiers becomes more intense, the form of space-time around the disk not only bends upward, but at maximum distortion actually folds over into almost a heart shape around the top of the disk.
Now remember, this space-time distortion is taking place 360 degrees around the disk, so if you were looking at the disk from the top, the space-time distortion would be in the shape of a doughnut. When the gravitational field around the disk is so intense, that the space-time distortion around the disk achieves maximum distortion and is folded up into this heart shaped form, the disk can't be seen from any vantage point, and for all practical purposes is invisible. All you could see would be the sky surrounding it.
May 1, 1993: "Bob Lazar at The Ultimate UFO Seminar" at Rachel, Nevada
A complete 27 page transcript is available for $8 + $2 shipping ($5 overseas) from Glen Campbell, HCR Box 38, Rachel NV 89001
Question:
I'm interested in a little bit more about the physics of the power generation from the development of the anti-matter to the Gravity "A" wave and the amplification and the process of generation of that and being able to fold space.
Lazar:
Well, it's... I can give you, I guess, a brief overview of essentially how that works. If you want an in-depth description, you can give me your address and I can send you a paper on it. Essentially, what the reactor does is provide electrical power and the base gravity wave to amplify, and it does that by interacting matter and antimatter, essentially. The way it does that is injecting an accelerated proton into a piece of 115. That spontaneously generates anti-hydrogen, essentially. That's reacted in a small area. It's a compressed gas, probably compressed atmospheric gas, and the antimatter reacting with matter produces the energy, mainly heat energy, and that is converted into electrical energy by a thermionic generator that appeared to be 100% efficient, which is a difficult concept to believe anyway. Also, the reactor has two functions. That's one of them; the other function is, it provides the basic gravity wave that's amplified, and that appears at the upper sphere of the amplifier itself, and that's tapped off with a waveguide, similar to microwaves, and is amplified and focused, essentially.
Question:
So how is the electrical energy related to the amplification of the gravitational "A" wave energy?
Lazar:
The electrical energy is transmitted essentially without wires, and I related it to almost a Tesla setup. It seemed like each sub component on the craft was attuned to the frequency that the reactor was operating at, so essentially the amplifiers themselves received the electrical energy, like a Tesla coil transmits power to a fluorescent tube, and what was the rest of the question?
Question:
Yeah, in other words, what is the relationship between... I think you basically answered it.
Lazar:
Yeah, that's how the amplifiers receive the power and through the waveguide to receive the basic wave. It's almost...It's very, very similar to a microwave amplifier...
Question:
Was the local means of propulsion the same as this across-space distances? What was the local means of propulsion?
Lazar:
The local means of propulsion is essentially them balancing on a out of phase gravity wave, and it's not as stable as you would think. When the craft took off, it wobbled to some degree. I mean a modern day Hawker Harrier or something along those lines of vertical takeoff craft is much more stable than then in the omicrom configuration, which is that mode of travel. The delta configuration is where they use the three amplifiers. Those are the only two methods I know about for moving the craft.
Question:
When you listen to some abduction reports, whether or not people believe it or not, there seems to be a common thread of people being hit by blue beams of light....
Lazar:
Any of the three gravity amplifiers could do that, could lift something off the ground, or for that matter compact it into the ground. That's not a problem, because the craft can operate on one amplifier, in omicron mode, hovering. That would leave the other three (?) amplifiers free to do anything. So I imagine they could pick up cows or whatever else they want to do. On the craft I worked on there was absolutely no provision for anything to come in through the bottom of the craft, or anything along those lines...
Question:
So what was the course of energy? How did it go from one area to another area?
Lazar:
The best guess is essentially it operated like a Tesla coil does. A transmitter and essentially a receiver tuned to the transmitting frequency and receives electrical power. There again, that's not real advanced technology. Tesla did that in the 30s, I think.
Question:
You mentioned the photon earlier. Do you think that physics is taking a wrong turn by looking for exchange particles, when you're talking about the strong force of gravity again? I'm not clear why you're skeptical about the graviton?
Lazar:
About the graviton?
Question:
Every other force seems to have exchange particles connected with it.
Lazar:
No, not necessarily. I mean, they make it have one, but as time goes on, that really hasn't held true. The bottom line is, they don't...First of all, they don't even believe there's a graviton anymore, so I'm not the only one. As far as exchange particles, still, though some of them like the zeta particle, maybe that's an actual thing, but when they're looking at transfers of energy, I think these are scapegoats for the most part. A lot of experiments that I was doing at Los Alamos essentially was along these same lines, but other exchange particles like the intermediate vector bozon, I don't believe that thing exists. I really don't. I think they're grabbing at straws and just coming up with excuses.
Question:
What about the small gravity, the Gravity "A"; how can you detect that one? What is the frequency of that?
Lazar:
Well, the frequency that the actual reactor operates at is like 7.46 Hertz. It's a very low frequency.
Question:
That's the frequency of Earth's gravity, or universally, all gravity?
Lazar:
That's the frequency the reactor operates at.
Question:
I can understand a reactor functioning - theoretically I can understand a reactor functioning at, say, (unintelligible word) 7.46 Hertz. There's a waveguide involved. I don't buy 7.46...
Lazar:
No, that's the basic... The frequency of the gravity wave that's produced, it has to be higher frequency, because you're in a microwave range to follow a conduit like that.
Question:
I understand from Lear's lecture that it had a tendency to conduct on the outside also of the reactor.
Lazar:
Right. Well, that's all... this was the electric field we were talking about. The basic frequency, I think, was the way the reactor's operating. The pulses that we detected out of it were probably, instead of a straight DC power supply, it was more along the lines of a pulse, as if we were getting a burst of particles coming out: An antimatter emission, then a reaction, a pulse of energy, and that would repeat. That's about seven and a half Hertz, something along those lines.
Question:
Bob, the microwave frequency going to the waveguide is electromagnetic, or that's gravitational?
Lazar:
They're one in the same.
Question:
I don't understand what you mean by that.
Lazar:
Gravity is... Unfortunately, physics hasn't gotten to that part yet, but gravity essentially is part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
Question:
Then what frequency is it?
Lazar:
That's something I'm reserving for myself.
Question:
Something about the microwave range?
Lazar:
Something about the microwave range. Well, you can sort of figure it out by the dimensions of the waveguide itself, and that's about it.
Question:
Positive energy versus regular photon?
Lazar:
No, it's not photon.
Question:
Electromagnetic Energy?
Lazar:
Right. I'm not trying to be secret, but this is part of the equipment that I'm working on, and I want to get it operating before...
Question:
I hope we'll find out one day
Lazar:
Absolutely.
Lazar Critique
by Dr. David L. Morgan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 1996, I was asked to review the content of a Bob Lazar website by an online acquaintance. Since then, my critique has been posted to Usenet discussion boards, featured on web pages, and taken on something of a life of its own. I still get email about it monthly, which is quite amusing, considering it’s been almost 5 years since I wrote it. Since the original posting was intended to be an informal email, the tone was somewhat harsh and flippant, and some sections were a bit too dismissive. I decided recently that I would try to put together a revision of the now-infamous paper. That revision is presented below.
After reading an account by Bob Lazar of the “physics” of his Area 51 UFO propulsion system, my conclusion is this: Mr. Lazar presents a scenario which, if it is correct, violates a whole handful of currently accepted physical theories. That in and of itself does not necessarily mean that his scenario is impossible. But the presentation of the scenario by Lazar is troubling from a scientific standpoint. Mr. Lazar on many occasions demonstrates an obvious lack of understanding of current physical theories. On no occasion does he acknowledge that his scenario violates physical laws as we understand them, and on no occasion does he offer up any hints of new theories which would make his mechanism possible. Mr. Lazar has a propensity for re-defining scientific terms, and using scientific language in a confusing and careless way. For these reasons, I don’t feel that Lazar's pseudo-scientific ramblings are really worthy of any kind of serious consideration.
I will focus on the parts of Lazar's text which I took the most exception with- most of these excerpts relate to particle physics, which is my field. Lazar's text is in boldface. He begins by describing the principle behind interstellar travel...
This is accomplished by generating an intense gravitational field and using that field to distort space/time, bringing the destination to the source, and allowing you to cross many light years of space in little time and without traveling in a linear mode near the speed of light.
I’m less bothered by the wording of this passage now than I used to be, although I still think it’s misleading. If you are distorting spacetime with a gravitational field, it produces a very specific kind of distortion, and a very specific kind of attraction. That’s what gravity IS – a distortion in spacetime, at least according to general relativity. And gravity attracts EVERYTHING. A gravitational field is a gravitational field...you can't pick and choose which objects it has an effect on. So, going by what Lazar says here, I still say that if you were to generate a gravitational field intense enough to warp spacetime and "bring the destination to the source" you'll also bring everything else in the nearby universe to the source too! If Mr. Lazar had really distorted spacetime like this back in his "Area 51" lab, every object on the face of the Earth would have rushed into New Mexico. Before they crashed back in the 50's, the alien saucers would have sucked the Earth right out of orbit!
Now I’m no expert in general relativity, but I believe that there ARE solutions in GR which do involve distortions of spacetime that are not “gravitational” in nature. (In other words they would not “attract” things outside of the distortion.) There are serious scientists that do serious work on wormholes and warp bubbles and other mechanisms which could allow faster-than-light travel by taking advantage of distortions in spacetime. As this research stands right now, it seems clear that the energy requirements which would be required by this kind of travel are unimaginable by any standards – even the most fanciful extrapolations of alien technology. I’m talking about an entire star’s-worth or even a galaxy’s-worth of energy! More mass/energy than could be contained in a tiny saucer, or even all of New Mexico for that matter.
There are currently two main theories about gravity. The "wave" theory which states that gravity is a wave, and the other is a theory which includes "gravitons", which are alleged sub-atomic particles which perform as gravity, which by the way, is total nonsense.
These statements by Lazar are "total nonsense". There is only ONE currently accepted theory of gravity: General Relativity. In GR, gravity is described as a distortion of spacetime, not as a particle or a wave. There are phenomena known as "gravitational waves" which exist in GR, but this does not seem to be what Lazar is talking about. Lazar says that gravity IS a wave. It isn’t a wave. The "gravitons" which he speaks of are a feature of QUANTUM gravitational theories, and I think they require a little explanation.
All physicists realize that the theories of QM and GR are incomplete, because they are mutually incompatible. In order to have a complete theory, theoretical physicists are looking to combine the two into a unified theory which will involve a quantum theory of gravity. There are currently no quantum theories of gravity that work. But even though a satisfactory theory does not yet exist, there is nothing at all nonsensical about gravitons. When an adequate quantum theory of gravity IS formulated, the energy of the gravitational field will be quantized. This quantum of the gravitational field is what physicists call the graviton. It is no more nonsensical than the photon - which is the quantum of the electromagnetic field.
(To add to the confusion of Lazar's statement, in any quantum theory of gravity, as in all quantum theories, the graviton will be, in a sense, BOTH a particle AND a wave!)
The fact that gravity is a wave has caused mainstream scientists to surmise numerous sub-atomic particles which don't actually exist and this has caused great complexity and confusion in the study of particle physics.
As a particle physicist, I must say that I have NO IDEA what he is talking about here. Surmising particles that don't exist? I can't think of a single particle whose existence has been postulated as a result of gravitational theories. Perhaps the graviton is one, but that’s about it.
You must have at least an atom of substance for it to be considered "matter". At least a proton and an electron and in most cases a neutron. Anything short of an atom such as upquarks and downquarks which make up protons and neutrons; or protons, neutrons, or electrons, individually are considered to be mass and do not constitute "matter" until they form an atom.
These are peculiar and nonstandard definitions. The standard use of the term "matter" includes anything which has mass. Even a single quark is considered to be a particle of matter. If a quark isn’t “matter” than what is it? All elementary particles are either matter particles or force-carrying particles. An electron is a mater particle, and so is a quark.
It may seem like a small point, but I think that errors like these are what make Lazar’s “theory” so dubious. How can we give much consideration to someone who claims to be overthrowing the foundations of particle physics, when it’s fairly obvious that he isn’t even familiar with the terminology?
Gravity A is what is currently being labeled as the "strong nuclear force" in mainstream physics ...
This is the place where Lazar begins to get him self in real trouble. As it is understood now, the strong nuclear force has NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAVITY. Such a statement shows either a complete lack of understanding of the physics of the Standard Model of particle interactions, or a BLATANT attempt at deception. The equations and coupling strengths which describe the two forces are totally different and unrelated. The strong force couples only to quarks and gluons. The gravitational force couples to all particles with mass. The strong force is extremely short range. The range of gravity is infinite. The gravitational coupling constant is orders of magnitude smaller than that of the strong interaction. There is NO BASIS for using the word "gravity" to describe the strong interaction IN ANY WAY.
If Mr. Lazar has formulated a NEW model in which the two forces are really the same, then he has unified gravity with the other three forces of nature, and he should publish it now and collect his Nobel Prize. If he DOES NOT have such a new theory then his statement here is ABSOLUTELY FALSE.
It's not good enough to just call the strong interaction "gravity A wave". You've got to demonstrate that it actually has SOMETHING to do with gravity if you're going to attach that name to it! The words by themselves are meaningless. I want to see some equations. Otherwise, this statement is not only wrong, but utterly incomprehensible.
...it should be obvious that a large, single star system, binary star system, or multiple star system would have had more of the prerequisite mass and electromagnetic energy present during their creations.
Now we get into some fuzzy astronomy. Mr. Lazar doesn’t seem to understand where heavy elements come from, or how they are formed.
First we have to assume that when Lazar says “large” he means “massive.” The "largeness" of a star says nothing about its mass. In five or ten billion years, the sun will be as large as the orbit of Mars. A star's size changes drastically during its lifetime. It’s pretty clear that what Lazar should be talking about here is the MASS of the star.
The next section is a little vague, but he SEEMS to be suggesting that his element 115, the alien fuel source, which doesn't exist on the Earth, should be present in those solar systems that were more massive at their inception. The implication here is that a star system which condensed out of a more massive primordial cloud should have a greater abundance of heavier elements. This is quite incorrect.
Heavy elements – all elements heavier than iron – are not formed during the normal life cycles of stars. The only time when these nuclei are "cooked" is during the collapse and subsequent explosion of supernovae. The supernova explosion then spreads heavy elements throughout the galaxy. For this reason, the abundances of heavy elements in any particular star system depend NOT upon the properties of the current star, but on the properties of the nearby stars of the PREVIOUS GENERATION! Therefore, all of the star systems in a particular region of the galaxy will have essentially the same abundances of heavy elements, regardless of the mass of star. If element 115 is STABLE, as Lazar claims it to be, then it should be created in supernova explosions and it should exist EVERYWHERE!
The most important attribute of these heavier, stable elements is that the gravity A wave is so abundant that it actually extends past the perimeter of the atom. These heavier, stable elements literally have their own gravity A field around them...
No naturally occurring atoms on earth have enough protons and neutrons for the cumulative gravity A wave to extend past the perimeter of the atom...
Since Mr. Lazar has already identified this gravity A wave with the nuclear force, he is essentially claiming that the nuclear force of element 115 extends beyond the limits of the "115-ium" atom. (I'm tempted to call it Lazarium...and somewhat surprised that he doesn't!!) This is simply not possible, given the known properties of the nuclear force. The past 50 years of probing the nucleus have taught us that the range of the nuclear force is VERY short, and protons and neutrons only feel the pull of their nearest neighbors in a nucleus. Because of this fact, the nuclear force extends out to about the same distance away from a nucleus NO MATTER HOW MASSIVE THE NUCLEUS IS. This fact is fundamental to the science of nuclear physics.
Once again, if Mr. Lazar has a NEW MODEL of the nuclear interaction which explains the properties and decay rates of known nuclei...which can predict the abundances of elements synthesized in the Big Bang...which can describe all of the properties of nuclear reactions which take place inside of stars...all as well as our current theories do all of these things (which is VERY well!) then he should publish it and collect his Nobel Prize. If not, then once again his statements make NO SENSE in the light of everything that we know about nuclear interactions.
Now even though the distance that the gravity A wave extends past the perimeter of the atom is infinitesimal, it is accessible and it has amplitude, wavelength and frequency, just like any OTHER wave in the electromagnetic spectrum. Once you can access the gravity A wave, you can amplify it just like we amplify OTHER electromagnetic waves.
(MY EMPHASIS)
I have emphasized the use of the word "other" in this paragraph to show that Mr. Lazar apparently thinks that his "gravity A wave", which if you recall, is also the strong nuclear force, is ALSO an electromagnetic wave. Perhaps he HAS formulated a "Grand Unified Theory" after all! Or perhaps this is just another example of his careless use of scientific terms.
Conclusions
I want to take some time here to talk about scientific progress, because there is one common objection to my critique of Lazar’s scenario. People will often say “Modern science could be wrong. Newton was wrong! Lazar could be right!” Yes. That is correct. In fact, modern science almost certainly IS “wrong.” But the only real test of a theory in science is that it works. Newton’s Laws worked. They still do in most situations. Einstein’s theories are better – they are more accurate and they work in more situations. New theories will continue to come along that are more precise and more generally applicable than the older theories, and these new theories will be tested by experiments until they supplant the old ones. That is how science has progressed for the past 400 years.
So it is not enough to SAY that modern science is wrong. You have to demonstrate that you have something that is better. And that “better” theory needs to do everything that the old theory does, and then do more. And chances are that it won’t completely turn the old theory on it’s head – because we already know that the old theories work too well. It is not possible to create a new theory until you understand the old one well enough to present a coherent alternative. Calling current science “total nonsense” is nice rhetoric, and no doubt convincing to many non-scientists who feel alienated from science and look on scientists as a kind of modern priesthood of arcane knowledge. But science is a process – not a body of knowledge.
I can't possibly demonstrate conclusively that Lazar's mechanism is impossible. All that I can hope to demonstrate here is that his scenario would require a COMPLETE overhaul of our theories of gravity and particle physics in order to work. Not just some minor changes...I'm talking from the ground up. Mr. Lazar makes no mention of this fact, and he proposes no alternative theories. But, if Lazar's scenario is true, then we will NEED some new theories, because we are wrong about a great many things. We don't understand gravity. We don't understand nuclear interactions. We don't understand spacetime. We don't understand stellar evolution. However, considering Mr. Lazar's careless use of language, his casual redefinition of scientific terms, and the complete lack of details in his presentation, I'm willing to bet the farm that it is actually Lazar who doesn't understand any of these things.
But wait.....There’s an addendum!!
Lazar explains on his current webpage (www.boblazar.com) how his element 115 not only serves as the generator of the Gravity A wave, but ALSO as the fuel for a matter/antimatter reactor that powers the rest of the saucer. Let's take a close look at Lazar's explanation of this reactor...
"The power source is a reactor. Inside the reactor, element 115 is bombarded with a proton, which plugs into the nucleus of the 115 atom and becomes element 116, which immediately decays and releases or radiates small amounts of anti-matter. The anti-matter is released in a vacuum into a tuned tube, which keeps it from reacting with the matter that surrounds it. It is then directed toward the gaseous matter target at the end of the tube. The matter, which in this case is the gas, and the anti-matter, collide and annihilate totally converting to energy. The heat from this reaction is converted into electrical energy in a near one hundred percent efficient thermoelectric generator. "
Lots of impressive sounding stuff about reactors and bombarding with protons and all that. But read it again. Antimatter and matter are converted into energy. Fine. But where does the antimatter come from? From element 115 when it is "bombarded with a proton" by the ship's reactor. Hmmm. And just exactly HOW MUCH energy would your reactor have to put into each proton to have it create an antiproton?? Well, exactly the mass energy of an antiproton! And how much energy do you get back out when the antiproton annihilates? EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF ENERGY THAT YOU PUT INTO CREATING IT!!
(Actually, you can't just make an antiproton by itself, you have to make a proton/anti-proton pair. So your reactor needs to put in 2 "protons-worth" of mass-energy into each proton in the beam.)
If you have to MAKE your own antimatter on board, your system produces NO NET ENERGY AT ALL!! You put 2 protons worth of energy in, and you get 2 protons worth of energy out! In fact, the BEST this system could do would be to make ZERO energy, but in fact, it would more likely USE far more energy than it would make.
Conservation of energy rears it's ugly head, and once again - it looks like Bob's saucer is going nowhere fast!
Dr. David L. Morgan
Comments?
dmorgan@ross.org
More People to follow soon...