Climate-gate

Nice post. Based on your analysis there might be a very large portion of the human race who need to be exposed to the consequences predicted by AGW. IE Scared. In that respect I hope some of them are reading the comments of BillyT and get scared into doing a personal analysis of the scientific literature. I'm scared for the human race. So far we've 'dropped the ball' and we better recover this fumble.
To help with bold above, see the quote below, which gives many links in Guy McPherson's very recent revision of his "links to posts" I. e. scientifically qualified sources that support his prediction of NTE, (Near Term Extinctions - by ~2030), from about 100 commissions and individuals. Here is short sample from that "links to posts" post:
http://guymcpherson.com/2013/01/climate-change-summary-and-update/ said:
Catastrophically rapid release of methane in the Arctic is further supported by Nafeez Ahmed’s thorough analysis in the 5 August 2013 issue of the Guardian 1 as well as Natalia Shakhova’s 29 July 2013 interview with Nick Breeze 2 (note the look of abject despair at the eight-minute mark). In early November 2013, methane levels well in excess of 2,600 ppb were recorded at multiple altitudes in the Arctic. 3 Later that same month, Shakhova and colleagues published a paper in Nature Geoscience 4 suggesting “significant quantities of methane are escaping the East Siberian Shelf” and indicating that a 50-billion-tonne “burst” of methane could warm Earth by 1.3 C. 5 Such a burst of methane is “highly possible at any time.” 6

By 15 December 2013, methane bubbling up from the seafloor of the Arctic Ocean had sufficient force to prevent sea ice from forming in the area. 7 Nearly two years after his initial, oft-disparaged analysis, Malcolm Light concluded 8 on 22 December 2013, “we have passed the methane hydrate tipping point and are now accelerating into extinction as the methane hydrate ‘Clathrate Gun’ has begun firing volleys of methane into the Arctic atmosphere.” According to Light’s analysis in late 2013, the temperature of Earth’s atmosphere will resemble that of Venus before 2100. Two weeks later, in an essay stressing near-term human extinction, Light concluded: “The Gulf Stream transport rate started the methane hydrate (clathrate) gun firing in the Arctic in 2007 9 when its energy/year exceeded 10 million times the amount of energy/year necessary to dissociate subsea Arctic methane hydrates.” Not surprisingly, the clathrate gun began firing in 2007, the same year the extent of Arctic sea ice reached a tipping point. 10... Robert Scribbler provides a terrifying summary 24 February 2014, and concludes, “two particularly large and troubling ocean to atmosphere methane outbursts were observed” in the Arctic Ocean. Such an event hasn’t occurred during the last 45 million years. Scribbler’s bottom line: “that time of dangerous and explosive reawakening, increasingly, seems to be now.”

The importance of methane cannot be overstated. Increasingly, evidence points to a methane burst underlying the Great Dying associated with the end-Permian extinction event, as pointed out in the 31 March 2014 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 11
methane-concentration-300x200.png

Here is a shorter summary: http://www.collapsingintoconsciousn...nge-summary-and-update-from-nature-bats-last/

As my copy in above quote has lost the "click-on-links" I am inserting red numbers in the quote and list them below.
Note that about half of all sentences in Guy's very long post (not just the tiny part I quoted) are documented with references.
1) http://www.theguardian.com/environm...7-facts-need-to-know-arctic-methane-time-bomb The Guardian, one of England's most respected papers, is not the scientific source, but quotes them. The Guardian is perhaps the world's most aware newspaper of the threat facing mankind, and not afraid to inform the public of unpleasant facts.
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx1Jxk6kjbQ
3) http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/2013/11/methane-levels-going-through-the-roof.html
4) http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v7/n1/full/ngeo2007.html
5) http://guardianlv.com/2013/11/global-warming-arctic-storms-releasing-methane/
6) http://www.newscientist.com/article...ctic-could-cost-60-trillion.html#.U7qL0NEg_pN
7) http://arctic-news.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/methane-emerges-from-warmer-areas.html
8) https://sites.google.com/site/runawayglobalwarming/the-non-disclosed-extreme-arctic-methane-threat
9) http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/2014/01/global-warming-and-the-gulf-stream.html
10) http://www.the-cryosphere.net/7/275/2013/tc-7-275-2013.html
11) http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/26/1318106111
 
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Todays teaching moment.

Can anybody describe the classic error that "Neutral Observer" has made?

Is it that many papers on climate science may neither support nor oppose AGW, because that isn't what the papers are about?
If not, I give up. What is the error?

For anyone who has not heard of Guy McPherson, mentioned earlier, here is a lecture with a dire vision of the near future.
One burp of gas from the Arctic could raise temperatures by 6 degrees almost immediately.
It is an hour in length, but it is interesting and worth viewing if you have the time
[video=youtube;nEGlYXumguI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEGlYXumguI&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
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From the comments: "The "97% of scientists agree" claim has been widely debunked. Even the IPCC’s lead author, Dr. Richard Tol mocks the 97 percent figure. He states, “People who want to argue that climate researchers are secretive and incompetent only have to point to the 97% consensus paper.” He refers to a report authored by John Cook, Dana Nuccitelli and others that examined 11,944 “climate abstracts” in the scientific literature. But the authors of that study themselves found otherwise, noting that “66.4% of abstracts expressed no position on AGW, 32.6% endorsed AGW, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain about the cause of global warming.” In other words, examining the abstracts alone found only 32.6 percent supported the notion of man-caused global warming. The 97 percent figure was derived by comparing the 32.6 percent with those who rejected (0.7%) or were unsure (0.3%), and essentially ignoring the rest. So, the reality is that only 32.6% agree that AGW is real.

That's like saying that 95% of medical papers do not mention that smoking causes cancer, and thus only 5% of doctors believe that smoking causes cancer.
 
"Where did this 97 percent figure come from? When you explore the lineage of this cliché, it appears about as convincing as a North Korean election. Most footnotes point to a paper published last year by Prof. John Cook of the University of Queensland, which purported to have reviewed the abstracts of over 11,000 climate science articles. But the abstract of Cook’s paper actually refutes the talking point:

We find that 66.4% of abstracts expressed no position on AGW, 32.6% endorsed AGW, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain about the cause of global warming. Among abstracts expressing a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming. In a second phase of this study, we invited authors to rate their own papers. Compared to abstract ratings, a smaller percentage of self-rated papers expressed no position on AGW (35.5%). Among self-rated papers expressing a position on AGW, 97.2% endorsed the consensus. In other words, two-thirds of the articles expressed no opinion about the human causation of climate change, while the one-third that did were twisted by Cook into a simpleminded tautology: Among all the scientists who agree with the “consensus” are all of the scientists who agree with the consensus."--The Weekly Standard

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesta...caught-doctoring-97-percent-consensus-claims/

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303480304579578462813553136

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303480304579578462813553136
 
What is your position, Photizo?

Do you believe man's activities ARE CAUSAL to AGW or are we a negligible contributor and have no responsibilities in keeping our environment pristine.

I like that word "pristine"
Definition of pristine (adj)

Bing Dictionary, pris·tine
1.immaculate: so clean and neat as to look as good as new
2..unspoiled: not yet ruined by human encroachment
3.in or of original state: in or belonging to an original state or condition
 
We find that 66.4% of abstracts expressed no position on AGW, 32.6% endorsed AGW, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain about the cause of global warming. Among abstracts expressing a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming. In a second phase of this study, we invited authors to rate their own papers. Compared to abstract ratings, a smaller percentage of self-rated papers expressed no position on AGW (35.5%). Among self-rated papers expressing a position on AGW, 97.2% endorsed the consensus. In other words, two-thirds of the articles expressed no opinion about the human causation of climate change, while the one-third that did were twisted by Cook into a simpleminded tautology: Among all the scientists who agree with the “consensus” are all of the scientists who agree with the consensus."--
That's like saying that 95% of medical papers do not mention that smoking causes cancer, and thus only 5% of doctors believe that smoking causes cancer.
 
I just note that the brief quote of Guy McPherson in post 821 is part of the first of 34 positive feed back systems discussed (or at least briefly defined) by Guy, that quite likely have made recovery for NTE* impossible - The ball is rolling down hill and accelerating. So as Guy suggests - do what you would do as if the next day is your last.

I'm too old to have GW be my cause of death, but I am "going down fighting" for my grand kids. - I have an idea as to how to remove CH4 from the air. If it is true than new patent regulations no long permit anyone to obtain a patent after public disclosure,** I'll begin a thread describing it as if I were making a patent application.
I. e. (1) I claim... {probably too broadly general to be allowed, then n claims more of the form: (n) "The device of claim (1) with .... "

If that is not true I may try for patent so the licensee fee can be zero. If idea qualifies, for Carbon Credits, as I think it will, then device I have invented should pay for its construction in a few years.

*NTE = Near Term Extinction.

** ~35 years ago, when I patented "Mass Flow Solar Absorber," MFSA,*** you could publish first, and still file for patent before 1 year passed. (In fact I published two papers of calculation in Applied Optics soon after I had completed the mathematical analysis to prove idea would work. (Did not want to pay filing fees etc. prior to being sure.)

*** MFSA solved the fundamental problem of solar thermal power systems. I.e. if absorber is hot enough for good Carnot limited conversion efficiency then the re-radiation losses keep the efficiency much lower than desired. The "absorber" of MFSA is a hole - has 1.0 absorption coefficient - and yet very low (less than 0.1) emissivity for IR. In one application discussed in the patent, the MFSA drives a reversible endothermic chemical reaction, to store energy with near zero thermal loss using SO2 & SO3. Both easily stored as liquids. Back then the power companies had small mountains of sulfur they would pay you to take away!

There had been prior solutions, all basically based on wave length selective cover glasses. (Let sun light reach the absorber, but reflect the IR trying to escape back to the absorber. The get very hot and crack with first sudden rain is near the absorber in concentrated sunlight.) If on or near the collection mirrors, they survive but their area is too large to be economically feasible.
 
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Massive amounts of methane (gigatons) will be released as the Arctic warms.
That is a consensus view.
But there is a debate over whether that release could happen quickly or not.
The following link explains that debate.
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/08/arctic-methane-hydrate-catastrophe

Hi, thanks for the link, I appreciate it. Here is a link to a popular blog presenting another viewpoint: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/13/defusing-the-arctic-methane-time-bomb/
 
Hi, thanks for the link, I appreciate it. Here is a link to a popular blog presenting another viewpoint: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/13/defusing-the-arctic-methane-time-bomb/
That link bases its entire argument on false assumptions:

1) That the total warming, rather than the rate or diurnal/seasonal balance, is the relevant number; { - past warmings were much slower and seasonally/diurnally different. The unprecedented rate of current warming is the major risk factor, and its seasonal/diurnal distribution also adds risk.}

2) that if only a small - less than ten percent - fraction of the methane hydrates are vulnerable we have no problem with the amount or rate of release; {- - even a very small percentage of currently sequestered methane would create disaster if released too quickly.}

3) that thawing of permafrost is governed by summer daytime high temps rather than winter nighttime lows; {- - - some past interglacials not only did thaw much current permafrost (there are badger holes preserved in permafrost just south of Hudson Bay), but the cold winters and nights of the thaw times past seem to have slowed that process down considerably from what we can expect now.}

4) that the existence of possible feedbacks that might bail us out (methane eating bacteria could multiply like mad and eat all the bubbling methane before it reaches the atmosphere, say) can be relied upon and are reason to conclude that we are safe; { - -again these hypothetical hopes depend on rate and timing and circumstances of release, and have not been demonstrated for our current circumstances in real life.}

5) and several others.

{editing in, one serious and illustrative one: that the calculation of ocean floor methane release can assume heat transfer into bottom sediment by diffusion only. Much methane is held in sloping and otherwise unstable sediment vulnerable to strong currents and earthquakes and its own partial thawing - in the past, when destabliized and exposed (by massive landslides, partial thaw tipping point eruption, shift in overlying current, change in pressure from storms, etc) it contacts water of the same cold temperature that imposed its formation, If that water is even slightly warmer, as it will be soon if not already, the consequences of things like massive landslides along the continental shelf are potentially much different than they have been in recent geological times.}

It's comforting to know that we may not be necessarily doomed - however, even taking all the vague reassurance at face value nothing there indicates that we are necessarily safe, either. And the event we are running risk of is really, really, very, five star and special effects by Pixar, bad. So what odds on such an event would a sane person be willing to accept?

And since the reassurances are coming from people who at the same time are presenting us with the kind of statistical reasoning we see from "Neutral Observer" the "Weekly Standard" above, we can't take them seriously without careful backchecking. Those folks are clearly incompetent, and we need to doublecheck everything they say.
 
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... Here is a link to a popular blog presenting another viewpoint: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/13/defusing-the-arctic-methane-time-bomb/
I agree with iceaura's post 381 comments, but also note that this link is a well documented statement basically to the effect that something like 99% of the methane hydrates will not become unstable for at least 103 years. One can not rationally take any more comfort in that than in the statement that 99% of the existing nuclear bombs will not be fired in an all out nuclear exchange as the first 1% will so disrupt the command and control systems that the safety controls, release codes, etc. can not be delivered or, if delivered, exercised (all already dead at the surviving silo site, etc.). Here, in blue, is most of the link's conclusion:

" Catastrophic*, widespread dissociation of methane gas hydrates will not be triggered by continued climate warming at contemporary rates (0.2ºC per decade; IPCC 2007) over timescales of a few hundred years. Most of Earth’s gas hydrates occur at low saturations and in sediments at such great depths below the seafloor or onshore permafrost that they will barely be affected by warming over even 103 yr. Even when CH4 is liberated from gas hydrates, oxidative and physical processes may greatly reduce the amount that reaches the atmosphere as CH4. The CO2 produced by oxidation of CH4 released from dissociating gas hydrates will likely have a greater impact on the Earth system (e.g., on ocean chemistry and atmospheric CO2 concentrations; Archer et al. 2009) than will the CH4 that remains after passing through various sinks.

Contemporary and future gas hydrate degradation will occur primarily on the circum-Arctic Ocean continental shelves (Sector 2; Macdonald 1990, Lachenbruch et al. 1994, Maslin 2010), where subsea permafrost thawing and methane hydrate dissociation have been triggered by warming and inundation since Late Pleistocene time, and at the feather edge of the GHSZ on upper continental slopes (Sector 3), where the zone’s full thickness can dissociate rapidly due to modest warming of intermediate waters.
... "

* Clear from the text and even in the part of the conclusion, I made bold, that his "Catastrophic" means / is when a large fraction, (not just ~1%, of the methane hydrates), is released in less than 103 years. A mere 1% "burp" released over a decade, which would only produce NTE (Near Term Extinction), and does not qualify as "Catastrophic." With this definition of "Catastrophic" , I agree, "Catastrophic" methane release from the deep, pressure-stabilized, methane ice hydrates is impossible in the next 103 years.

When little dog Toto of Wizard of Oz pulled the curtain back, the "Wizard" said: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain." Unlike Toto, I can type, so say:
"Pay no attention to assurances that "Catastrophe" is impossible because neither 99% of nuclear nor methane ice hydrates "bombs" will explode in the next 103 years."

Also very miss-leading and falsely reassuring is the "denier's" reassurances of no danger based on true facts that life has made it thur ancient periods when CO2 was much higher than current levels. This high level of CO2 developed over many thousands of years, not the current rapid rate. Thus every century a little more methane was released, and quickly oxidized to water and CO2, so the CH4 concentrations were not as high as they currently are. Back then natural processes could and did produce the OH radial, main destroyer of tropospheric methane. I.e. the half life of newly released methane was certainly less than one year with OH radical at it's dynamic steady state concentration. Now the rate of CH4 release is so rapid the OH radical concentration is much lower and dropping. I.e. the half life of CH4 about a decade ago (in 2004 as I recall) was 9.6 years but in 2013 was 12.6 years and still increasing.

SUMMARY: Back when CO2 was much higher than now, methane concentrations were much lower and rapidly being converted to an insignificant part of the CO2 concentration. Now methane has entered into a positive feed back system: More GW, more CH4 released each year, so more OH radical destroyed each years with OH concentrations falling, so every CH4 molecule last longer (about 0.3 years per year now) and more are being release this year than last year. - more living longer is a very strong positive feed back system and already in the first 10 years, it takes 104Kg of CO2 to do the same GW, averaged over those 10 years, that one Kg of CH4 does. (assuming falsely that the current OH radical were not being reduced).

This positive feed back system mainly operates in the Arctic, and strongly re-enforces the melting sea ice positive feed back system (Floating ice reflects more than 80% of the incident sun light, but when that area has open water instead of ice more than 80% of the sun light is absorbed in the sea to melt ice every more rapidly.) Also as the wind now has larger open sea to build strength, the waves are larger and stronger so the thinned ice still un-melted is broken up and melts faster. There are a total of 34 known mutually re-enforcing positive feed back systems. Almost none of which were even significant positive feed systems back when CO2 took thousands of years to increase as much as it now does each decade!
 
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kremmen said:
Thanks. It confirms a problem I had with the theory.
No. Hell no.

You need to be more wary than that. Nothing Photizo links to should confirm anything. He links to propaganda, irresponsible and corrupt sources of deception without integrity and without rigor, factually accurate and relevant only by coincidence. The reason he links, rather than arguing, is that a link abets the misleading bs he is trying to shovel unto this forum by presenting it in a literate and official and "scientific" manner beyond his capabilities here.
 
I agree with this at least.
Why would this global warming suddenly release a catastrophic amount of methane,
when previous global warming did not?
 
... Why would this global warming suddenly release a catastrophic amount of methane,
when previous global warming did not?
Answer: current sustained (for several decades) rate of CO2 release is much higher - so high that the rate of methane release is so high that it has CH4 in positive feed back mode. - The rapid release of methane is depleting the concentration of atmospheric OH radical that destroys the methane (and the OH also), making methane's half life increase about 0.3 year every year now. Previous CO2 release was not the sustained high rate as it is today*, so methane concentrations remained low.** I.e. the newly released methane was destroyed as it was made as the natural source production of OH radial was faster than methane removal of it. - not true today.

* There were brief period (a few years, not decades), with rapid volcanic surges of CO2 release.

** Fundamentally the difference is that now methane released each year is now greater than the new production of OH radical so both methane half life and concentration are increasing while the OH concentration is falling. Long ago when CO2 release was slower the converse was true. Thus, back then, a dynamic equilibrium was established with neither methane concentration nor OH radial concentrations changing. Now methane concentration is rising and that of OH is falling with no clear limit (of import) in the methane concentration known. Some bubble clouds of methane now bubbling up off the Siberian coast are one KM in diameter now not just a few meters in diameter as they were about 8 years ago when first noted.
 
Perhaps this is the wrong place for this, or maybe some of the wrong crowd... I am still sifting thru the pages and comments

Here is a link that I was given recently on another site: http://dialoguesonglobalwarming.blogspot.com.au/p/10000-global-warming-skeptic-challenge.html

for those who deny AGW and keep "proving" it here and in other places, this is the time for you to act.
The challenge is simple:
prove, via the scientific method, that man-made global climate change is not occurring;
Be 18 or older

There is a list of rules on the page but that is basically everything important to know.
Given that this is posted publicly, it is open to anyone with access, but it will be first come gets credit, original or not.

I've told other deniers to take the challenge... I would suggest it here as well. Especially for those who repeatedly make the same logical errors and fallacious claims.

I have noted some who will read a peer reviewed study, but link a blog as refute. This seems woefully inadequate.
If the source you are trying to refute uses a peer reviewed process, the refute should have the same process that shows scientific integrity and a series of checks and balances, not just unsubstantiated conjecture based upon personal delusion or conspiratorial discourse between mentally unstable or unreliable people.
This is like saying that a mental patient with a tenuous grasp on reality disproves an Police officer when it comes to the credibility of eye-witness testimony on a burglary gone bad with an aggravated homicide attached. If both were eye-witness... I know that the mental patient will be questioned, but the D.A. will want the cop on the stand.

Pardon the interruption and POV

Please continue.
 
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kremmen said:
Why would this global warming suddenly release a catastrophic amount of methane,
when previous global warming did not?
For the five or six reasons already listed, in multiple posts on this thread. See mine at 831, for one of maybe a dozen such posts.

Or this quote from Billy, post 833:
There are a total of 34 known mutually re-enforcing positive feed back systems. Almost none of which were even significant positive feed systems back when CO2 took thousands of years to increase as much as it now does each decade!

I don't, myself, think the methane bomb is going to be detonated, I think the odds are probably too long against it - but the fact that we are taking that risk without knowing the odds for sure, that we are relying on the kinds of arguments visible in Photizo's links to reassure ourselves and forestall amelioration, is just mind boggling.
 
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