Circumcision is a crime now in Germany

[quadraphonics]

Basically it boils down to this, why do you have a problem with "informed consent"?

Children lack the same ability as adults to become "informed," and so to give "consent." This is part of what makes them children, and why we accord said rights to their parents instead, in the first place. To speak in ignorance of that is to render yourself irrelevant to any serious discussion of child/parental rights.

a person has a right to CHOSE what happens to there body,

A child is not "a person" in the legalistic sense you are invoking.

that means that SURE if your tonsils are playing up then they have to be removed, thats a medical NESSECITY or you will die (or at the very least be quite sick). And if there is an URGENT MEDICAL NEED to operate on the genitalia then no one would complain.

So, wait, now you're saying that a child has no right to subject such decisions to his informed consent, in cases where some doctor says it's a "medical necessity?"

That's strange, because adults have such rights.

Sounds like you're asserting that parents are rightfully allowed to make these decisions for their children, but you want veto power over what justifications they can use to make certain decisions.

However if its NOT an urgent medical need then the child can decide when they turn 16 (or younger if the age of medical consent is younger) THEY get to decide pure and simple.

Interesting that you aknowledge we're talking about people below the age of medical consent - yet don't notice that such undermines the entire legalistic argument you are presenting here. The age of medical consent exists for a reason - right? And it says explicitly that medical decisions for people below that age are made by their parent or guardian - right?

So the issue is simply that you disapprove of some of those decisions taken by said parents and/or guardians. Which, fine - but what, again, is your justification for enshrining your view into law?

Its just sad watching people call this law "goverment interfearance in self determination" while compleatly ignoring what SELF determination means. Children have rights, those rights include being protected from the idiocy of there parents.

No, "idiocy" is not protected. Just things like abuse and negligence. I don't think you can point to any law that says parents aren't allowed to be idiots.

JW cant refuse a blood transfusion for a child,

Right, that's negligence.

parents cant get there children sterilised without authorisation from the Guardianship Board,

That one is abuse.

Although, a "Guardianship Board" with the power to veto parents' medical decisions is exactly the spectacle of statist intrusion onto personal liberty you are saying doesn't exist. Nothing like that would ever fly in the USA.

and germany ruled that THIS is another decision the CHILD can make when they are old enough to make that decisions.

You mean, when they are no longer a CHILD.

The funny thing is for those who call this antisemetic origionally this was the test of manhood, this was what YOU got done when you wanted to be accepted as a man in the tribe and marry. Basically Germany isnt being antisemetic, they are simply saying that it can be practiced the way it origionally was, when YOU can decide

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that having the German state dictate how Jews ought to go about their practices - telling them the real, original way, over their objections - is still real offensive. If you want to avoid being anti-Semitic, probably try to abstain from trampling the self-determination of German Jews to decide exactly what their own authentic cultural practices are and are not.

 

[Bells]

That was a personal attack wasn't it? And this uneducated parent deemed it ok, because the doctor DIDN'T deem it unnecessary.

Was it?

I guess it would be a personal attack if you were an uneducated parent.

 

[Orleander]

Was it?

I guess it would be a personal attack if you were an uneducated parent.

passive aggressive much? whatever

well, isn't that just freakin awesome. I can't put you on ignore. *&^%$

 

[Bells]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that having the German state dictate how Jews ought to go about their practices - telling them the real, original way, over their objections - is still real offensive. If you want to avoid being anti-Semitic, probably try to abstain from trampling the self-determination of German Jews to decide exactly what their own authentic cultural practices are and are not.

Interesting.

Ethiopian Jews also practice female circumcision, also known as female genital mutilation.

Does that mean Germany banning female circumcision would be anti-Semitic for any Ethiopian Jews and "trampling the self-determination of German Jews to decide exactly what their own authentic cultural practices are and are not"? After all, Ethiopian Jews living in Germany currently have the German State dictating how they should "go about their practices". Isn't that just as offensive?

 

[quadraphonics]

Was it?

I'd say it was more of a bigoted nationalist slur than a personal attack, but either way Orleander has grounds to call you on trafficking in insult.

I guess it would be a personal attack if you were an uneducated parent.

That is an unambiguous personal attack, though.

If this is how you are going to behave, you should resign your duties as a moderator. Apart from being the honorable thing to do, it would allow members who no longer wish to hear your abuse to put you on "ignore."

 

[Bells]

passive aggressive much? whatever

well, isn't that just freakin awesome. I can't put you on ignore. *&^%$

Orleander, you are in no position to be complaining. You have gone out of your way to be demeaning, insulting and abusive in this thread.

 

[quadraphonics]

Interesting.

Ethiopian Jews also practice female circumcision, also known as female genital mutilation.

Does that mean Germany banning female circumcision would be anti-Semitic for any Ethiopian Jews and "trampling the self-determination of German Jews to decide exactly what their own authentic cultural practices are and are not"? After all, Ethiopian Jews living in Germany currently have the German State dictating how they should "go about their practices". Isn't that just as offensive?

In your rush to construct a cheap "gotcha!" there, you ran right past my point.

The thing that is trampling the self-determination was Asguard's justification of the ban as being closer to "true Judaism" as he defined it. If someone were to justify said ban on gemale genital mutilation in a similarly patronizing way, then yes, the same description would apply. That hasn't happened yet, though, that I'm aware of.

There is, of course, the larger question of multiculturalism and religious autonomy, although I don't see where I've taken much of a stand on that one. And since you raise the issue in an instance of blatant trolling, I'm going to decline the opportunity to try to have a serious conversation about that, and instead simply reiterate my previous observation:

Equating male circumcision with female genital mutilation is fucking stupid.

 

[quadraphonics]

Orleander, you are in no position to be complaining. You have gone out of your way to be demeaning, insulting and abusive in this thread.

Two wrong don't make a right - especially when a moderator is one of the wrong-doers.

And since I've been well-behaved in this thread, it seems that I'm entitled to complain about your nationalist bigotry - suggesting that US parents are, in general, "uneducated" - and general trolling. You should stop doing that - permanently - or else resign as a moderator.

 

[Bells]

I'd say it was more of a bigoted nationalist slur than a personal attack, but either way Orleander has grounds to call you on trafficking in insult.

Are you saying it is a slur to say that circumcision is more commonly acceptable in the US than here? And is it a slur to say that even in the US now, there is a push from the medical bodies to educate and make parents aware of the risks and benefits of circumcisions so that they can be educated and make an informed decision instead of relying on a cosmetic belief that "ewwww I wouldn't put one in my mouth" when considering whether one should circumcise their son's or not?

That is an unambiguous personal attack, though.

Really?

I guess she should know, shouldn't she? I didn't see you commenting about her personal attack then. Or the ones that came after.

If this is how you are going to behave,

How exactly am I behaving Quad? Perhaps you should concern yourself with your own behaviour and I shall concern with mine? Okay?

you should resign your duties as a moderator.

How about, I will when you apply that rule equally?

Apart from being the honorable thing to do, it would allow members who no longer wish to hear your abuse to put you on "ignore."

Refer to above.

 

[Bells]

In your rush to construct a cheap "gotcha!" there, you ran right past my point.

The thing that is trampling the self-determination was Asguard's justification of the ban as being closer to "true Judaism" as he defined it. If someone were to justify said ban on gemale genital mutilation in a similarly patronizing way, then yes, the same description would apply. That hasn't happened yet, though, that I'm aware of.

There is, of course, the larger question of multiculturalism and religious autonomy, although I don't see where I've taken much of a stand on that one. And since you raise the issue in an instance of blatant trolling, I'm going to decline the opportunity to try to have a serious conversation about that, and instead simply reiterate my previous observation:

Equating male circumcision with female genital mutilation is fucking stupid.

Here is the thing about using the anti-semitism card that you just tried to use. It applies equally.

If you deem that Germans should respect the rights of German Jews to circumcise their son's because it is anti-semitic not to (when one considers German's history where Jews are concerned), then it stands to reason that Jews who do practice female genital mutilation, distinct to their beliefs would also have a fair call to say that it is anti-semitic to ban them from doing so.

I'm sorry quad, but not every practice by other cultures or religious practices should be acceptable, regardless of where they live or that country's history.

To claim that it is anti-semitic to prevent Jewish parents from circumcising their newborn sons in one region of Germany and determining that those children should be making the decision for themselves and then saying it isn't anti-semitic to prevent Ethiopian Jewish parents from practicing something that is inherent to their culture because *gasp* it entails female genital mutilation *gasp* is ridiculous.

So please, can the indignation. Because your hypocrisy on this point is blatant.

 

[quadraphonics]

Are you saying it is a slur to say that circumcision is more commonly acceptable in the US than here?

Why would you think that I am saying that, and why are you attempting to put words in my mouth?

Why can't you just own up to what you actually said, like an adult?

And is it a slur to say that even in the US now, there is a push from the medical bodies to educate and make parents aware of the risks and benefits of circumcisions so that they can be educated and make an informed decision instead of relying on a cosmetic belief that "ewwww I wouldn't put one in my mouth" when considering whether one should circumcise their son's or not?

No, I'm saying that what you actually said is a slur. Let me remind you:

Possibly because parents here are educated and aware that it is not necessary to remove bits of their children's bodies if there is no medical need to actually do so.

Obviously in the US, parents think it is acceptable to remove their kid's body parts, even when the medical profession deems it unnecessary.. To each their own.

Do I have to spell it out for you, exactly why it is offensive to assert that an entire nation of parents are "uneducated" and acting out of bizarre ignorance? Because it's the kind of thing I'd expect a moderator to understand, in the first place.

Really?

Yes, really. You clearly implied that she's "uneducated." There was nothing ambiguous about it. How about you own up to your actions, like an adult, if you're going to go around lecturing people on their parenting?

I guess she should know, shouldn't she? I didn't see you commenting about her personal attack then. Or the ones that came after.

I am mostly sticking to highlighting instances of moderator misbehavior. We can't really have any expectation that regular members will refrain from personal attacks, when those charged with policing such are themselves implicated, now can we?

And, again, two wrongs don't make a right. Isn't that the sort of thing that educated, responsible parents try to teach their children?

How exactly am I behaving Quad?

You are making personal attacks and generally using troll tactics to personalize and debase the discussion. This is, unfortunately, somewhat typical of your behavior, and presents a serious problem for your service as a moderator.

Perhaps you should concern yourself with your own behaviour and I shall concern with mine? Okay?

Resign your position as moderator, and then you'll be in a position to seriously demand that of me. As it is, your station required you to concern yourself with the behavior of others, and so likewise makes your own behavior a matter of general interest here. If you don't like that state of affairs, well, again: resign.

How about, I will when you apply that rule equally?


Refer to above.

It's very immature and trollish of you to try to drag yet another person into the mess you're making here. But anyway I'm not going to respond to mere insinuations - I see nothing objectionable about string's post there, and if you aren't even going to venture any positive assertion of what is supposed to be the matter with it, then you'll have to excuse me for writing that off as the pathetic, hollow attempt at diversion it appears to be.

And, again, I don't get to "apply" and "rules" here. That's the business you're in, and that's what attracts and justifies heightened scrutiny of misbehavior on your part.

So, again: act like a mod - and an adult - or resign. This whole childish, nasty display is embarassing.

 

[quadraphonics]

Here is the thing about using the anti-semitism card that you just tried to use. It applies equally.

I aknowledged in the material you quoted there that an equivalent assertion regarding female circumcision would indeed draw equal results. I said that explicitly.

If you deem that Germans should respect the rights of German Jews to circumcise their son's because it is anti-semitic not to

I have not so "deemed" anywhere that I can see. In fact, I explicitly declined your invitation to do so, in exactly the material you just quoted, because it was clearly a troll premise - as further evidenced by your giddy insistence on pursuing it in spite of that.

Which is really silly - your quote there is me explaining exactly how you missed the point the first time, and then explicitly correcting you on what I did actually say. Who are you kidding?

I'm sorry quad, but not every practice by other cultures or religious practices should be acceptable, regardless of where they live or that country's history.

Again, I never said that. Why is it that you are in such a rush to stuff words into my mouth and attack them? You really think I'll fall for this nonsense, or that you'll fool anyone else?

To claim that it is anti-semitic to prevent Jewish parents from circumcising their newborn sons in one region of Germany and determining that those children should be making the decision for themselves and then saying it isn't anti-semitic to prevent Ethiopian Jewish parents from practicing something that is inherent to their culture because *gasp* it entails female genital mutilation *gasp* is ridiculous.

Good thing for me that I didn't say that, then.

So please, can the indignation. Because your hypocrisy on this point is blatant.

Unimpressed. Why are you devoting so much energy to these pathetic, obvious strawman attacks? And why are you so resistant to owning your own statements?

 

[Tiassa]

Mod Hat — On personal attacks, and other notes

Mod Hat — On personal attacks, and other notes

Really, this thread is insane.

Yes, there is an issue here. But it is being obscured by a fairly heated rhetorical war.

As to personal attacks: Were I to intervene for personal attacks, I would have done so long ago.

People on one side of the argument want to denigrate others as mutilated. And there's something about vaginal drymouth, or something like that buried in there somewhere. If this is how those folks want to fight, I'm perfectly happy to let them.

People on the other side of the argument resent any number of aspects about the one side's argument, and plenty are willing to sling right back.

I will say this much: If the participants are starting to get frustrated with the rhetorical heat they help create, we have two possible outcomes. Either they can all grow up and try to discuss real issues in real terms, or I can shut down this thread and maintain a moratorium against reiterations of the discussion in new threads.

In the long history of Sciforums, people have been very, very frustrated because they perceive moderators undertaking too many punitive actions that are too severe.

Fine.

But look at yourselves.

If this is just a way for people to get penile neuroses off their chests, then fine.

If this is intended to be a serious discussion of a serious issue, well, it has failed on the serious front.

 

[quadraphonics]

Mod Hat Either they can all grow up and try to discuss real issues in real terms, or I can shut down this thread and maintain a moratorium against reiterations of the discussion in new threads.

I vote for the latter.

 

[Bells]

Why would you think that I am saying that, and why are you attempting to put words in my mouth?

Why can't you just own up to what you actually said, like an adult?

I don't need to. It is there.. unedited in all of its glory.

Do I have to spell it out for you, exactly why it is offensive to assert that an entire nation of parents are "uneducated" and acting out of bizarre ignorance? Because it's the kind of thing I'd expect a moderator to understand, in the first place.

They are uneducated about circumcision since parents are not being educated about it, hence the push to educate parents to allow them to make an informed and educated decision.

Do I need to spell that out for you, again?

Yes, really. You clearly implied that she's "uneducated." There was nothing ambiguous about it. How about you own up to your actions, like an adult, if you're going to go around lecturing people on their parenting?

Really? She has been lecturing me on mine when she has been going on about circumcision, just as you have in your posts in this thread.

Don't you get it yet? This thread is about parenting.

Now, with the push in the US to educate parents about the risks and benefits of circumcision so that they can make an informed decision (keep in mind that medical bodies in the US no longer recommend circumcision as a precautionary measure), one can say that when Orleander claims that the men in her family, principally her son, were circumcised, she may not have been given the correct information to make an informed and educated decision. Because as she advised, she had it done to her son because her doctor told her that she should. Which to me means that doctors are not educating and informing parents correctly so that they can make an informed decision. In other words, it is akin to what Stoph recounted in this thread about his own son.

I am mostly sticking to highlighting instances of moderator misbehavior. We can't really have any expectation that regular members will refrain from personal attacks, when those charged with policing such are themselves implicated, now can we?

And, again, two wrongs don't make a right. Isn't that the sort of thing that educated, responsible parents try to teach their children?

I guess this would apply when one cannot understand between being uneducated and being placed in a position where one isn't given the correct and valid information to make an informed decision...?

You are making personal attacks and generally using troll tactics to personalize and debase the discussion. This is, unfortunately, somewhat typical of your behavior, and presents a serious problem for your service as a moderator.

If you say so.

Of course, I will take you seriously about this accusation when you apply it to all the other moderators who took part in this thread. Of course, they are arguing for circumcision, so it stands to reason that you say nothing about their behaviour in this thread. I guess that is somewhat typical of your behaviour, isn't it Quad?

Resign your position as moderator, and then you'll be in a position to seriously demand that of me. As it is, your station required you to concern yourself with the behavior of others, and so likewise makes your own behavior a matter of general interest here. If you don't like that state of affairs, well, again: resign.

I will resign when the other moderators who took part in this thread resign for their behaviour. I think that sounds about fair, don't you?

It's very immature and trollish of you to try to drag yet another person into the mess you're making here. But anyway I'm not going to respond to mere insinuations - I see nothing objectionable about string's post there, and if you aren't even going to venture any positive assertion of what is supposed to be the matter with it, then you'll have to excuse me for writing that off as the pathetic, hollow attempt at diversion it appears to be.

And, again, I don't get to "apply" and "rules" here. That's the business you're in, and that's what attracts and justifies heightened scrutiny of misbehavior on your part.

So, again: act like a mod - and an adult - or resign. This whole childish, nasty display is embarassing.

And I think your hysterical display and demands that I resign because I am not buying your line of argument in this thread to be childish, nasty and embarrassing.

So perhaps you can stop your diversionary tactic of concentrating on my moderator status and getting back to the thread? There are sub-forums that deal specifically with your complaint. You are also free to PM a moderator or administrators for a review of this whole thread. I am sure the other moderators who participated in this thread and who have made questionable comments and remarks will also welcome such a review. After all, if you are demanding that such rules are applied equally, that is how it goes.

In short, just because I am not on your side on this issue does not make me a bad moderator. It just makes you a bad sport to instantly demand people resign because they disagree with you.

 

[Bells]

If this is intended to be a serious discussion of a serious issue, well, it has failed on the serious front.

It was never intended as a serious discussion as the OP itself is miss-representative of the reality of what actually happened in Germany regarding this case. In short, Germany has not made circumcision illegal. Far from it.

 

[Kittamaru]

So you would have no issue if parents of baby girls made the decision and the choice to circumcise their baby girls? How about give them a beating? After all, 'until the child is capable of making rational and informed decisions, they are reliant on their parents to make such choices and decisions for them', correct? What you are saying is that children have zero rights and are to remain at the whim of the parents until said child is able to make rational and informed decisions. Which, believe it or not, opens the door to some things you probably do not even want to imagine because there are people out there who do horrendous things to their children because they believe exactly as what you just stated, that children do not really have any rights until they get older.. So well done..

Thankfully we have laws to protect children from parents who believe that their children have no rights or shouldn't have rights.

*grins sadistically* Sure, go ahead - take what I said to crazy, illogical extremes - as I said, the child has to be reliant on the parent, especially since they are not legally capable of making their own decisions - sadly, that's how the USA works, even when the child is far more capable and intelligent than the parent. Even when the parents allow alcohol and other drugs to influence their "raising" of the child. Even when said parents brutally beat and traumatize their child because they don't know how to control their tempers. Even when said parents don't feed the child properly resulting in malnourishment and stunted growth...

Sad fact of fucking life, Bells... the world isn't a damned bit fair, and there ain't shit you can do about it till you emancipate yourself. Nobody is going to do it for you, and you sure as hell ain't gonna do it as a newborn. There are lessons that some unfortunate souls will learn far too early... and with any luck, they will carry those lessons their entire life and learn from them, never cursing their own children with such harsh realities as not knowing love or kindness or respect or dignity... never having to FEAR their own PARENTS or hide every single mistake, terrified by the punishment that would await them. Do you know what it's like to be held against a wall by your neck, struggling to breath, while your alcoholic father "informs" you just how useless and worthless you are? Do you know what it's like to have your mother tell you to "let it be" because it's how life is? To be told there is nothing better, and to believe it so much you try, repeatedly to kill yourself?

Really Bells? Cutting off this USELESS flap of fucking SKIN is so important to you, yet the suffering and despair of these poor, abused children is somehow so much less important?

I'm sorry, but Godsdamnit, there are more IMPORTANT things in the world to fix than circumcision! Now, if you can't see that, that's your own damn fault, the lot of ya. For me? I'm not going to "fight the power" of something so incredibly menial and insignificant when there are very REAL threats to children, and indeed society as a whole, still out there.

And yes, you hit a bit of a nerve there, Bells... putting words in my mouth is something I don't take too kindly too, something you MIGHT understand if you knew a damn thing about what my childhood was like. I learned all too early how unfair and cruel the world is, and you know what? I decided to do my best to protect anyone and everyone I could from the kind of bullshit I had to put up with.

None the less, I bow to your "high and mighty crusade" against circumcision! ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SAVIORS OF OUR CHILDREN'S PENILE FLAPS!

...

And yes, I'm pissed... congrats!

PS - for the record, this is probably going to be my last post in this thread... the level of insanity an logical retardation are just staggering all around... myself included at this point. I'm just going to walk away before I say/do something I'd regret... like punch a wall with my face.

 

[Tiassa]

Mod Hat — Response

Mod Hat — Response

It was never intended as a serious discussion as the OP itself is miss-representative of the reality of what actually happened in Germany regarding this case. In short, Germany has not made circumcision illegal. Far from it.

Well, that's alright, then.

 

[Bells]

Kittamaru

Feel better now?

*grins sadistically* Sure, go ahead - take what I said to crazy, illogical extremes

You pretty much just came out and said that a child doesn't really have any rights because it is incapable of knowing right from wrong. And you are offended when I picked up on this?

What rights does a child, incapable of even KNOWING right from wrong, truly have, hmm?

Your words, not mine.

This is an emotional debate, more so for some than others it seems.

However, when you make such comments Kitta, do not be so offended when your words are taken as they are written.

And the "fact of fucking life" is that there are parents who actually believe this to be true and commit horrendous acts on their children as a result. Don't you understand Kitta? When you deliberately harm someone, you do not believe they have rights. It means you do not believe they have "fucking" human rights and a right to not be harmed. So when I see people making comments that children have no rights because they are too young to understand right from you, yes, I take offense to that. Because I have spent a stupid amount of years dealing with people who believed that and because of said belief, committed atrocities against said children.

You don't like that "fact of fucking life"? Tough shit. Next time, choose your words more wisely.

as I said, the child has to be reliant on the parent, especially since they are not legally capable of making their own decisions - sadly, that's how the USA works, even when the child is far more capable and intelligent than the parent.

In saying that, those very children also have a right to not have their parents cosmetic or religious beliefs forced on them to the point where they have to be surgically altered to suit a religious or cosmetic ideal.

That is how it should work Kitta.

Even when the parents allow alcohol and other drugs to influence their "raising" of the child. Even when said parents brutally beat and traumatize their child because they don't know how to control their tempers. Even when said parents don't feed the child properly resulting in malnourishment and stunted growth...

Are you kidding me?

Wow..

No, truly, wow..

Sad fact of fucking life, Bells... the world isn't a damned bit fair, and there ain't shit you can do about it till you emancipate yourself. Nobody is going to do it for you, and you sure as hell ain't gonna do it as a newborn. There are lessons that some unfortunate souls will learn far too early... and with any luck, they will carry those lessons their entire life and learn from them, never cursing their own children with such harsh realities as not knowing love or kindness or respect or dignity... never having to FEAR their own PARENTS or hide every single mistake, terrified by the punishment that would await them. Do you know what it's like to be held against a wall by your neck, struggling to breath, while your alcoholic father "informs" you just how useless and worthless you are? Do you know what it's like to have your mother tell you to "let it be" because it's how life is? To be told there is nothing better, and to believe it so much you try, repeatedly to kill yourself?

And so this is right is it? That no one should be there to 'emancipate' the child or provide them with the protection they deserve to ensure their rights are protected because that person may not be that child's parent? Are you offended that the State awards and stands to protect a child against its parents abuse?

I'll put it this way. I don't give a "fucking" shit what rights you think you have as a parent. The very moment you deliberately hurt a child, you break the law and deserve to be in jail. Get it yet?

Because you see, as adults, it is our role to ensure the weak are protected. That includes newborns.

Really Bells? Cutting off this USELESS flap of fucking SKIN is so important to you, yet the suffering and despair of these poor, abused children is somehow so much less important?

How is it less important?

How is thinking that newborns should be protected from having parts of their bodies, no matter how useless you seem to mistakenly believe it is, offered to their God as a sacrificial offering or removed because their parents think it looks prettier or their mother thinks that no woman would want to take her son in her mouth if he's not circumcised because she thinks it is "ick" to suck on an uncircumcised penis is somehow less important than ensuring that the rights of all children to not be harmed in any way? Please, tell me that?

I'm sorry, but Godsdamnit, there are more IMPORTANT things in the world to fix than circumcision! Now, if you can't see that, that's your own damn fault, the lot of ya. For me? I'm not going to "fight the power" of something so incredibly menial and insignificant when there are very REAL threats to children, and indeed society as a whole, still out there.

Where did I say it was more important?

Remember, you are the one prattling on about how children shouldn't or do not have rights because they are incapable of knowing right from wrong. Not me. I find that belief to be something important, because it is that kind of belief that results in what you seem to think is more important happening to children.

Get it yet?

You see, I have dealt with adults who fucked their 6 month old baby girls and then told me "it's my kid, I can do what I want to do". I also dealt with one parent who kicked his son so hard, the child died. Now if your words are to be applied in such cases, he can do what the fuck he wants to do without any consequence whatsoever. Because it is his child and his child has no rights because said child cannot know right from wrong and that child is therefore at the whim of the parents and is only given what rights the parents think it should have.

Do you understand how that is fundamentally wrong?

Do you understand how that is "fucking" twisted?

It isn't the parent that awards their child their basic fundamental human rights Kitta.

And yes, you hit a bit of a nerve there, Bells... putting words in my mouth is something I don't take too kindly too, something you MIGHT understand if you knew a damn thing about what my childhood was like. I learned all too early how unfair and cruel the world is, and you know what? I decided to do my best to protect anyone and everyone I could from the kind of bullshit I had to put up with.

I hit a nerve?

Really?

Poor you. Have a cookie.

Because when I see people say that children have no rights because they don't know right from wrong, I will speak out. Don't like it? As I said before, tough shit. They were your words. Not mine.

If you do not like how those words are taken and applied, choose said words more carefully.

You see Kitta, it is because the people in your life believed that you had no rights that you were harmed as a child. And I think that is so "fucking" wrong, it's not even funny. Because I think that you, as a child, deserved and should have been afforded all the rights and protection that everyone has, even if and frankly because you could not know or understand the difference between right and wrong. And I have spent the better part of my adult life working to ensure the people who believed as your parents did were jailed for their crimes. So before you accuse me of putting words in your mouth or before you get offended that I challenge you on your words and beliefs, consider where I am approaching this from. What makes this even more disheartening is that you could come out and make that statement in light of what you suffered as a child.

None the less, I bow to your "high and mighty crusade" against circumcision! ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SAVIORS OF OUR CHILDREN'S PENILE FLAPS!

The point, Kitta, is that everyone should determine whether they are circumcised, everyone should determine whether a religious or cosmetic surgery is done to them in a case that it is not medically necessary.

I have two sons. I am leaving that decision up to them and if they decide they want to be circumcised, then I will take them to the best urologist to have it done. But that is their decision, not mine. I am not going to remove something from their bodies because of a religious belief or because I might think it looks prettier without their consent. My role as their parent is to ensure their rights are protected. Not to determine what rights they should have based solely on my religious and non-religious beliefs.

And yes, I'm pissed... congrats!

You're welcome.

PS - for the record, this is probably going to be my last post in this thread... the level of insanity an logical retardation are just staggering all around... myself included at this point. I'm just going to walk away before I say/do something I'd regret... like punch a wall with my face.

Oh I think it is safe to say that you went past there..

 

[Gustav]

great thread