Cigarettes - do you buy into all the hype?

spuriousmonkey said:
So you are just pretending that cigarettes are harmless so you can sleep at night...

I don't think anyone here has said that smoking is harmless. What we've been trying to point out is that they don't DIRECTLY cause cancer any more than breathing smog causes cancer.

I mean, face it, purposely sucking smoke into ones lungs rather than clean, pure, mountain air isn't exactly the greatest idea that man has devised. But that also doesn't make it the/a CAUSE of lung cancer.

And lest y'all forget, hundreds of thousands of NON-smokers die of lung cancer in the US/world. So maybe, just maybe, there are other factors of which we seem to ignore or, at the very least, don't talk about. We'd rather blame it all on smoking wherever possible (and just not talk about the others cause it weakens the case against smoking!).

Alcohol and liver disease? I think that there's an absolute, direct link between alcohol and liver disease ...big difference between that and lung cancer, don't ya' think?

Baron Max
 
Great point Baron....in fact, accoriding to the American Lung Association - Roughly 75% of the lung cancer in America is in NON-Smokers?!?!? How do they play that out??
 
Baron Max said:
I mean, face it, purposely sucking smoke into ones lungs rather than clean, pure, mountain air isn't exactly the greatest idea that man has devised. But that also doesn't make it the/a CAUSE of lung cancer.
I agree, I do not believe smoking causes cancer rather that it increases the risk of developing cancer. And someone correct me if I'm wrong but it would seem as the number of smokers declines the number of people suffering lung cancer is increasing?
 
getts said:
in fact, accoriding to the American Lung Association - Roughly 75% of the lung cancer in America is in NON-Smokers?!?!? How do they play that out??
I didn't see your post when posting above, anyways, that would indicate that something else in modern society is probably a bigger cause of lung cancer.
 
Smoking tobacco contributes to gum disease, heart disease, lung, mouth and throat cancers and probably a whole load of other ills as well. I do not dispute that a minority of smokers may actually live long and healthy lives, but if someone is predisposed to a particular disease (and most people are) then smoking certainly doesn't help.

Let's face it, governments rake in fortunes from the duty imposed on tobacco so why are they trying to kill their golden goose, unless they've worked out that it actually does more harm than good? What I mean is that governments want their working populations to live longer in order to work longer in order to pay more taxes and in order to expect a shorter time of claiming state pensions, so again, I put it to you that they've done their sums and have realised that untempered tobacco use ultimately provides them with negative equity.
 
tab - Wow, are you really that dense? Are you not aware that the 'scare' of 'Big Tobacco' has INCREASED that duty imposed on tobacco products? To bolster their tax-and-spend motives, they fabricated yet another "crisis" in America -- a "health care crisis" and say tax increases are necessary "to protect the children."

You can always count on the gov't to pull that one out of their hat.....'protect the children'.

Anti-smoking liberals have for years siphoned billions of tax dollars, via Federal and State Grant Money, the ASSIST and IMPACT programs are a primary source, and diverted charitable contribution dollars to their coffers under the guise of improving health and saving children. Funding the anti-smoking groups with public funds, or any other social group with "an ax to grind", is nothing more than buying votes and a way to circumvent the laws that prohibit Government employees from using public funds to promote their own social agenda.

Socialists throughout the government and society began their assault by creating an atmosphere of hateful distrust and by turning public opinion from the tobacco companies accompanied with an avalanche of misleading PR designed to frighten the public. Controlling public opinion was paramount if they were to succeed in extorting billions of dollars from a legal industry and raising taxes on Americans least able to afford it.

The Washington "spin doctors" have successfully twisted the facts about tobacco and smoking and the news media has fed those lies to the American public. Social engineers manipulating the American media went to great lengths to make tobacco industry executives out to be nothing less than liars.

An early success was redefining the tobacco industry, calling it "Big Tobacco," playing on the public's aversion to "Big Government." Lawyers bringing suits against the tobacco industry developed various theories to show the tobacco industry committed a fraud against the American public. They claimed documents have shown that the tobacco industry lawyers controlled scientific research in an attempt to hide data that was damaging to the industry (not unlike any industry), that the tobacco industry has hidden the dangers of smoking (ignoring the fact that everyone already knew of the dangers), that they manipulated the nicotine content of cigarettes to addict more people, and that they targeted children in their advertising (ah yes, the popular "for the children" theme).

Never mind that Americans have been warned since the 1950s of the dangers associated with smoking. Thomas DiBacco, a retired American University history professor from Palm Beach, testified in the Miami Florida lawsuite that hundreds of articles published in the 1950s and '60s warned the public that heavy smoking causes lung cancer and other debilitating diseases. He cited a 1957 story in the Detroit Free Press, ``Doctors are indicting cigarettes, that smoking cuts your life span by seven years.'' DiBacco said 94.2 percent of 556 smoking-related articles published between 1950 and 1963 stressed the health risks of cigarettes. Only 2.3 percent of those articles emphasized the industry's downplaying of those risks. [Miami Herald, Feb. 8, 2000]

Isn't it ironic that these same lawyers, government officials, and other politicians accusing others of lying have perfected the art of lying (who can forget the long string of lies coming from our highest elected official, Bill Clinton). Basing their arguments on fraudulent and bogus research, these corrupt politicians successfully convinced much of the American public and a few activist judges that more private wealth should be turned over to the government.

Dare I remind you who has a tremendous financial motive to convince you the tobacco companies are at fault? These same lawyers making these wild accusations will earn BILLIONS of dollars after they turn you to their position

Raising taxes is nothing new to liberal tax-and-spend Democrats. The U.S. Congress rejected the settlement with the tobacco industry that was an attempt to address youth smoking and instead proposed to impose a HALF A TRILLION dollars in new taxes and to create 17 new bureaucracies to control another American industry. That effort, too, was defeated in Congress as the McCain Bill became bloated with extravagant spending that had nothing to do with smoking.

Sadly, many Republicans who were elected with the mandate of no new taxes has joined the effort to steal more of your money. They have been forced to by the successful PR campaign slogan, "Big Tobacco or Kids?" Never mind truth! Liberals would have you believe that anyone opposing their efforts of the government takeover of another American industry and their welfare state caring for your children is necessarily supporting youth smoking. How ridiculous, but effective....

Most states have enacted cigarette-tax increases or other legislation designed to discourage smoking or lessen people's exposure to secondhand smoke, according to the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, a Washington lobbying group. In Alaska smokers pay $1 per pack in taxes. Washington lifts 82.5 cents from smokers pockets for every pack they buy. In New Jersey smokers pockets were picked by their legislators when they doubled their tax on cigarettes. The new 80 cent tax will be used to pay the costs of medical care for indigent people without medical insurance. Some states (notably California and Massachusetts) have a special indignity reserved for smokers: They must pay for their own persecution. In California, an additional 25 cents per pack tax on cigarettes was passed in 1988 to be used for cancer research, 5%; wetlands, 5%; indigent medical care, 40%; and "education" - read anti-smoker campaign - 50%.

The national litigation, which was settled in 1998, sought to recover money that states spent treating smoking-related illnesses of those on the Medicaid insurance program for the poor and disabled and to prevent future generations from smoking . However, many states plan to use the money for projects unrelated to tobacco. Sixteen states and the District of Columbia, for example, have either decided or are planning to spend nothing or less than 2 percent of their settlement funds on prevention programs. Many others are using their windfalls to reduce taxes or for unrelated programs. National Conference of State Legislatures recently figured that only 8 percent of the money is earmarked for anti-smoking programs. A good portion is slated for "health care," but much is also going into totally unrelated programs like roads, schools and teenage boot camps.

Arkansas wants the money to establish health education centers in the Mississippi Delta, bolster minority health programs, increased Medicaid coverage for pregnant women, expanded benefits for the elderly, and eventually extend coverage to everyone who lives at or below the poverty level. In addition, they want the money to fund medical research for Alzheimer's disease. [Arkansas Democrat-Gazette , Jan. 22, 2000]
California wants to spend the money on childhood development programs, child care, and to fund programs that would allow health care workers to identify and track children for future services. [Los Angeles Times , Jan. 20, 2000] An initiative that would have required the state and counties to spend their share of the national tobacco settlement entirely on health care was scrapped in favor of the Orange county supervisors' plan to use most of the windfall to pay off its bankruptcy debt and to add jail beds. [Orange County Register , Jan. 29, 2000] The city of Los Angeles wants to use their share of the tobacco money to pay for lawsuits in the Rampart police scandal. [Los Angeles Times , Feb 20, 2000] In the Bay area, they plan to spend the money on capital improvements for the Alameda County Medical Center or renovations for Benicia's police station.
Colorado has passed legislation to use their share of the booty to subsidize prescription drug costs and pay for primary care to at-risk newborns. [Associated Press, Mar. 9, 2000]
Connecticut wants to fund education, new roads, and prisons.
Delaware would like to use their portion of the settlement to add nine staffers in the Department of Health and Social Services, fund the state's "pill bill" prescription- assistance plan, help the un- and underinsured, and buy automatic heart defibrillators. [The News Journal, Mar. 28, 2000]
Idaho doesn't plan to spend any of the money, rather they want to invest the money and spend only the interest. Governor Kempthorne has said that health advocacy, state building construction and academic scholarships should be priorities for the money.
Illinois wants to use the money for tax relief. [Chicago Tribune, 4/21/2000]
Indiana will spend the money on a children's health insurance program and wants to help low income senior citizens pay for prescription drugs. [Associated Press, 1/28/2000]
Kansas intends to use all $70 million of this year's settlement to fund the state budget rather than health care. [Topeka Capitol Journal, Dec. 30, 1999]
Maryland proposed tobacco-settlement funds be used for a teacher pay raise. [SunSpot, February 27, 2000]
Minnesota wants to use a large share for medical student stipends. [Associated Press, Mar. 9, 2000]
Nevada plans to use their share of the booty to help low-income senior citizens pay for prescription drugs. [Las Vegas Sun, Mar. 28, 2000]
New Jersey wants the money to provide free or subsidized health care to thousands of low- and moderate-income New Jerseyans [The Record , Jan. 22, 2000], reimburse hospitals for treating uninsured patients, provise mental health services in prisons, programs to care for the elderly, help low-income seniors pay for prescription drugs, and create a fund to bail out health maintenance organizations that go under. A whopping 8% of the money would be used on programs that discourage children from smoking and help others to quit. [The Record , Jan. 27, 2000]
Ohio plans to use some of the money to help rebuild or replace aging Ohio public school buildings. [Cleveland Live, Oct. 28, 1999]
Pennsylvania would devote the funds to a number of important health care-related objectives in Pennsylvania, including an expansion of health insurance coverage for the uninsured and disabled, an expansion of smoking cessation and prevention programs, home and community-based health services, health research, and uncompensated care relief to hospitals which provide health services to the uninsured. [PRNewsWire, 1/27/2000]
Utah suggests using their share for the University of Utah Health Science Center, for a children's health insurance program and for a permanent trust fund for public schools. [The Salt Lake Tribune]
Virginia's governor is throwing his state's tobacco settlement money into roads[SunSpot, February 27, 2000].
Notice how they are not suggesting spending the money on recovering health care costs for smokers! It's even more rare for them to use the money to reduce smoking. No, they want to fund the socialist programs, especially targeting children. These folks recognize that for their socialist programs to succeed, they need to win over the children.

In my opinion, states spending the money in this fashion is nothing short of criminal. Why the tobacco companies ever agreed to this extortion in the first place is beyond me. I find it ironic too, that the folks who were complaining about all the alleged lying going on by the tobacco industry, don't seem to have a problem with lying when it benefits them. The next time someone says something to you about the "lying tobacco companies," remind them about the lying Attorney's Generals.

I suppose the other side of this issue of the states not using the money for what it was intended for is you can pretty well count on them coming back for more. Once they have discovered the easy money at the trough, it will be next to impossible to wean them from the public/private nipple.

Notice, they are not suggesting a total ban on cigarettes! In fact, no one is suggesting a BAN on cigarettes. The anti-smoking lobby says that smoking is a deadly addiction, responsible for three million deaths each year and that because nicotine is as addictive as heroin or cocaine, using tobacco is not a choice once you're hooked. Further they pull the "children" tactic and says the nicotine industry hooks 60% of its customers before they're even 14 years old.

If tobacco was as dangerous and the killer substance they say it is, wouldn't any reasonable person outlaw it ouright? Why don't the do that? See, they are NOT trying to kill their Golden Goose....they are trying to convert it into a PLATINUM PENGUIN!!!
 
tablariddim said:
Britain says that 100,000 people die every year from smoking related deseases, but there are like 13 million smokers there so as a percentage, 100k seems miniscule and makes you wonder what all the fuss is about
Uh, dude, did you expect all the smokers to die every year?? In that case, am I screwed or what!?

Here is the actual irrefutable evidence, found here:
1912: First strong connection made between lung cancer and smoking. Dr. I. Adler is the first to strongly suggest that lung cancer is related to smoking in a monograph.

1914: Lung cancer death rate is 0.6 per 100,000 (US Census Bureau); 371 cases reported in the US.

1919: Washington University medical student Alton Ochsner is summoned to observe lung cancer surgery - something, he is told, he may never see again. He doesn't see another case for 17 years. Then he sees 8 in six months - all smokers who had picked up the habit in WWI.

1925: Lung cancer death rate is 1.7 per 100,000 (US Census Bureau).

1928: Lombard & Doering examine 217 Mass. cancer victims, comparing age, gender, economic status, diet, smoking and drinking. Their New England Journal of Medicine report finds overall cancer rates only slightly less for nonsmokers, but finds 34 of 35 site-specific (lung, lips, cheek, jaw) cancer sufferers are heavy smokers.

1930: 2,357 cases of lung cancer reported in the US. The lung cancer death rate in white males is 3.8 per 100,000.

[...]

1948: Lung cancer has grown 5 times faster than other cancers since 1938; after stomach cancer, it is now the most common form of the disease.


In fact the lung cancer epidemic was a major concern to the medical establishment throughout the early decades of the 20th Century. Strenuous efforts had to be made to find out what was causing the explosion in this previously remarkably rare disease.

The obvious culprit was clearly................ petrol fumes! If there is anything which had clearly become a daily part of everybody's lives it was the vastly accelerated use of the internal combustion engine, with its concomitant pollution blackening the streets of the cities of the world. But there was insufficient proof.

Then one day a doctor suddenly realised that, checking off the history of a new cancer sufferer, he had automatically ticked "smoker". Checking his own medical records showed a very high correlation between lung cancer and smoking. Ultimately the statistical evidence, once you were looking for the right thing, proved irresistible.

Smoking causes lung cancer, period. Also cancers in the mouth and throat area. That the health lobby has, without scientific foundation, expanded those dangers to include all cancers, plus coronary heart disease and other ailments, has totally demonised tobacco, and also constantly make erroneous claims about the dangers of passive smoking, is certain as well. Only this week the British government is moving towards a full ban on smoking in public places (presumably indoors!) including pubs and restaurants. The only possible reason for this (given that there are surely enough smoke-free places provided by private enterprise, for people who truly find it an offensive habit, for which I do not blame them) is that, without actually checking all the scientific evidence, they believe that passive smoking is significantly harmful. It has been shown to be less harmful than the normal petrol fumes we all breathe in every single day. Sorry about the somewhat anecdotal nature of this post, it seems impossible to back anything up with a really independent web site - they're all pro- and anti-smoking sites!
 
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If tobacco was as dangerous and the killer substance they say it is, wouldn't any reasonable person outlaw it ouright?
Yes, but there's a huge political lobby supported by tobacco companies. The rest of your spiel was just some anti-liberal bullshit. I think more drugs should be legal, if tobacco, why not pot?
 
Something that appeared on the news in the UK was a study that had reveled that two identical twins, one a smoker and the other was not, had physically aged at a different rate.

Doctors had suggested although the twins had been born circa minutes apart, there was approximately 5 years difference in their physical condition.

Smoking around children causes their lungs to be less effective and increases the chances of Asthma. I know this because as a kid I found it difficult to breath when doing heavy exercise caused by my fathers smoking. Which incidentally I followed his footsteps after schooling had finished and have completely quit smoking altogether in 2000-01.

I don't miss coughing up the yellow flem, or the discoloured tongue and teeth or even the yellowed fingers caused by smoking. However I do find smoking absolutely repulsive.
 
Interesting, too, ...I just saw a seqment on NBC news that said that researchers have found a genetic link to lung cancer! So, see, there's one more new item to show that it's not smoking that causes lung cancer. How many more do we need until smokers can crawl back out of their caves and into the light of day?

Baron Max
 
So, the epidemic in lung cancer was caused by, what, a genetic mutation? The link to lung cancer is undeniable and clear, look at the history in my previous post. In 1919 it was so rare a medical student was told that an operation for lung cancer he was watching might not be seen again throughout his career. He never saw one again until 1936, when he saw eight cases in the same year, and from then on lung cancer was suddenly the second most common cancer. It was World War I when cigarettes first became widely available that caused this massive increase.

P.S. I smoke.
 
OK, if all this is true, tell me this - Why is a black male 50% more likely (American Lung Association http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=317181) than a white male to get lung cancer?

Especially when the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus04trend.pdf#060 states that there are only a couple of % more black male smokers currently, and there has never been more than about 10% difference beltween black males and white males?

If there was truly a link between lung cancer and smoking, shouldn't these statistics be somewhat more in line with eachother?? I mean, come on....
 
spuriousmonkey said:
Baron, nobody claimed that smoking was the sole cause of lung cancer.

Well, that's sorta' true ....but they also failed to prove that smoking causes lung cancer AT ALL. ..they're still actually trying to figure it all out, and haven't done so thus far.

Baron Max
 
Well, if that's the case, Baron, why don't you answer my posts with the undeniable history? Lung cancer was a very rare disease that suddenly exploded. When they made studies to find out the cause, smoking didn't even occur to the researchers. But a close analysis of the habits of the sufferers made it beyond doubt. The number who smoked or had smoked substantially sometime in their lives was off the scale, far in excess of the proportion of smokers in the population.

To answer the genetic item, genetics may give you a preponderance to a particular condition. So a genetic link will increase the likelihood of contracting a disease if its generating factors are present.

Being related to a smoker who gets lung cancer won't give you lung cancer. If you're a smoker and you're related to a smoker who died of lung cancer, you're more likely to get lung cancer than a smoker who was related to another smoker who lived their whole life without getting lung cancer. (Lung cancer is the cause of death of 10-15% of smokers according to that excellent link getts provided).

You're looking at the Black vs White statistics from the wrong direction. "Black people have a 50% greater chance of contracting lung cancer than White people, despite only 2% more of them smoking." You think that's telling you something, but it isn't. Because the correct way to look at it is to ask, "What proportion of the Black lung cancer sufferers are smokers?" And I believe you'll find it's the same 87% quoted by that site as the proportion of all causes for lung cancer.

They quote that the number of smokers who contract lung cancer is 10-15%. This is absolutely perfect to illustrate my point. Let's say right now that it's 10% of white smokers who get lung cancer, and, as it turns out, 15% of black smokers who get lung cancer. (Non-smokers, it may be 1-2%? Not sure). There you have the clear picture that blacks have a 50% greater chance of getting lung cancer. But it's smoking that causes the cancer just the same.
 
People, have you forgotten, nicotine is five time deadlier then cyanide, which was used for assasinations in small amounts. So smoking is a slow death, biochemically speaking.

Tar is used as a poisen to ward off snakes and scorpions in many countries.

After this you even consider raising the question why is it wrong to smoke??
 
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