Church and State in the U.S.

is this supposed to be funny? i mean, are you being sarcastic? seriously, our innate sense of fairness? :confused:

:roflmao:

Why is that funny? Without laws (a code of ethics) there would be no societies.
Societies are needed in order that religions may form.

so anyway, in regards to church and state, explain the whole bizarro liquor laws on sundays thing. dry counties in the bible belt and whatnot...

I live in a country 3,000 miles from the US and even I could make a stab at answering that one. I'm surprised, albeit not a lot, that you can't.
 
Why is that funny? Without laws (a code of ethics) there would be no societies.
Societies are needed in order that religions may form.

it's funny because humans obviously do not have an innate sense of fairness.



I live in a country 3,000 miles from the US and even I could make a stab at answering that one. I'm surprised, albeit not a lot, that you can't.

i can. it was actually more of a rhetorical question. the answer is that people in the us use religion as a foundation for law-making. protestants think alcohol is evil, so they place limitations on it, particularly on sundays. and yes, it's ridiculous.
 
it's funny because humans obviously do not have an innate sense of fairness.

I disagree. We have laws that punish people who commit acts that we deem as a society to be unfair. Even if some killers get away with it or some CEO of a company gets to spend his taxes on a yacht that is a failure of the implementation of those laws and not the laws themselves.

i can. it was actually more of a rhetorical question. the answer is that people in the us use religion as a foundation for law-making. protestants think alcohol is evil, so they place limitations on it, particularly on sundays. and yes, it's ridiculous.

Fair enough Lori. But that's not really in keeping with the OP who believes that the ethics of the USA are based on Christian ethics. It is a state and not federal issue. It's also a fairly recent development.

Having travelled to England on countless occasions I can confirm that most certainly not all protestants believe alcohol is evil. :)
 
Christianity, as practiced in any society or community, takes it's ethics from the people, who use those innate ethics to interpret the Bible. If we took Biblical ethics seriously, we would have the death penalty for those who commit adultery, eat shrimp, or wear clothing made from more than one type of fabric. Many of the founders of the USA were not Christians, they were deists.

Theism in general is a poor model for a government, and we have to get past it, because it values faith, which robs human beings of their dignity and intellect. It says that we have to accept things without evidence on the authority of a secondhand report, even to accept things in light of contrary evidence.

The ethics of faith are not rational, and they cannot be questioned. Evidence based reasoning and skepticism are the basis of an ethical government.

The ethics are mostly from Christ for Christians, in a speech called the Sermon on the Mount. Wisdom in the Bible is one of several books of wisdom. Most people could stand to read them.

Two people can form a civilization. One says to the other, "We will be friends." The other says, "Agreed." What I am saying is that the basic agreements that bind our civilization are being violated especially in courts, but also in other areas of life, where people should review the ethics, and not allow false arguments to rise to the top of the public dialogue. The idea is to go back to the basics.

Evidence based reasoning? Wow. That is something like the military intelligence of Napoleon, in fact, it's much like it. Nothing is what it seems most of the time, evidence or not. Skepticism? News is a one sided argument. I took a poll. I did a study. There's the evidence. Whom does it serve? If I were in the Andromeda galaxy, and looked out into space and saw the Earth what would I know about Joe Smith who lives in Detroit? I would really know more about myself would I not? That is the value of evidenced based reasoning. So no. The great Western civilization has a historical beginning prior to the formulation of U.S. government.
 
You have just contradicted yourself. Either the 10 commandments are written in stone or they're not - which is it?

That is lawyer speak for saying that anything is arguable. Someone said, and I'm not convinced of the source, that a good prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich.
 
is this supposed to be funny? i mean, are you being sarcastic? seriously, our innate sense of fairness? :confused:

:roflmao:

Even chimps and monkeys have an innate sense of fairness. If a large primate goes over to a little one, slugs him, and takes a treat from him, the other primates that see the act clearly react as if the aggressive primate did something wrong.

Interestingly, with chimpanzees, the closeness of two chimps colors the judgment of whether a given action is "unfair" or not...just as it does in humans.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050212191635.htm

Then again, maybe they learned their sense of fairness from Monkey Jesus. :)
 
Your initial claim was:

“ The Constitution clearly defines and delineates the revelence of the Christian model in social action as it applies to law in the U.S. ”

I would think that this legal document, which was written while George Washington was still in office and then subsequently ratified by unanimous vote, would clearly debunk that claim.

>If you take that sentence out of the context of the paragraph in which it was written it probably will not stand on its own. I could take a door frame out of a building, but the frame would not be the building. It needs the context.

I am making the point that religion cannot be separated or separate from government in this civilization. People would actually do better without the government if that was the case, and I think that is a problem that most people do not understand, much the same as most people did not adopt computers until decades after they were mass produced.
 
That's certainly one of them. The Magna Carta was a much stronger influence, as was the Declaration of Independence and Common Sense. In terms of people, the Constitution is based far more on the teachings of Thomas Paine than on Jesus Christ. (Which is a good thing.)

Agreed. And that's true whether the person is Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Muslim or Hindu.

There is a mixture of terms in this discussion that is not doing justice to the readers. The terms government, civilization, society, and law each have distinct meanings.

I am, for the sake of the reader, going to make the distinction between good and bad, right and wrong, saying that good is not the same as right, and bad is not the same as wrong. They are not synonyms. Each has a distinct meaning. So if we talk about civilization we can talk about it separate from the term government. It is important, on the other hand, where the intersections lay when discussing church and state, ethics and law, and it is important to understand the differences in the terms used in the discussion.

So each has history - legal history - religious history - ethical history - and the history of Western civilization. In law, I think the ideas needs review, so that the arrows point in the right direction for future action. Somewhere the wind has blown them off course. We have more than 50,000 laws in this free country, and the review might produce some course corrections that are long overdue. That is my point, and thank you for allowing me to express it. Thank you all for your responses.
 
much the same as most people did not adopt computers until decades after they were mass produced.
my parents argued with me when i tried to talk them into the computer being a good thing..(when computers first started appearing for the public).
years later..mom finally got a computer and fell in love with it..
 
I am making the point that religion cannot be separated or separate from government in this civilization. People would actually do better without the government if that was the case, and I think that is a problem that most people do not understand, much the same as most people did not adopt computers until decades after they were mass produced.
You're making a lot of claims, but no points. But it's obvious you're here to rant and rave instead of discuss - so it's time you joined a few other evangelists on the ignore list... Bye.
 
Even chimps and monkeys have an innate sense of fairness. If a large primate goes over to a little one, slugs him, and takes a treat from him, the other primates that see the act clearly react as if the aggressive primate did something wrong.

Interestingly, with chimpanzees, the closeness of two chimps colors the judgment of whether a given action is "unfair" or not...just as it does in humans.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050212191635.htm

Then again, maybe they learned their sense of fairness from Monkey Jesus. :)

if our sense of fairness is innate then would you care to explain the world around us and the society we live in please? thanks.
 
I disagree. We have laws that punish people who commit acts that we deem as a society to be unfair. Even if some killers get away with it or some CEO of a company gets to spend his taxes on a yacht that is a failure of the implementation of those laws and not the laws themselves.

the need for those laws implies that our sense of fairness is not innate.
 
the need for those laws implies that our sense of fairness is not innate.

No, it means that not everyone has the sense of right and wrong, so different societies establish a baseline of proper behavior and punishments for not following them.
 
No, it means that not everyone has the sense of right and wrong, so different societies establish a baseline of proper behavior and punishments for not following them.

in·nate (-nt, nt) KEY

ADJECTIVE:
Possessed at birth; inborn.
Possessed as an essential characteristic; inherent.
Of or produced by the mind rather than learned through experience: an innate knowledge of right and wrong.

excuse me? if it were innate, according to the definition of innate, it would be an essential characteristic of being human, and everyone would possess it at birth. as it is now, the rules, disciplines, religions, and laws, as prolific as they are, still do not put a dent in our unfairness, nor are they themselves fair.

what planet are you on? seriously...
 
The fact that we have them implies we do. If we didn't it would be a much more unfair world.

i think it's quite unfair enough. perhaps you're just a lucky one?

and further, please refer to the above post.
 
is this supposed to be funny? i mean, are you being sarcastic? seriously, our innate sense of fairness? :confused:

:roflmao:


so anyway, in regards to church and state, explain the whole bizarro liquor laws on sundays thing. dry counties in the bible belt and whatnot...
States have some room to pass laws that reflect the will of the local people, who have historically been very religious.

The ethics are mostly from Christ for Christians, in a speech called the Sermon on the Mount. Wisdom in the Bible is one of several books of wisdom. Most people could stand to read them....

I disagree that the Sermon on the Mount is a good model for society. For one thing, he says that we shouldn't save or think of tomorrow. That would eliminate the banking system, and being aware of problems like global warming. Instead of hating our enemies, which is what most people do now, we should love them? Seriously? Also, you can't take any oaths, so no oath of office, no swearing to tell the truth in a courtroom, and no doctor's Hippocratic oath. And forget looking at a woman with lust, that's out, so no porn. A society based on the teaching of Jesus is fundamentally incompatible with the principles established in the constitution.
 
the need for those laws implies that our sense of fairness is not innate.

That is not true. The truth is that we have two competing impulses. We have the impulse to cooperate, and the impulse to cheat and get the best deal for ourselves.

Suppose we observe two strangers. They each do an equal amount of work, see them both get rewarded with food, shelter and other good things. We then see one of them got twice as much of these things (more food, a bigger, nicer shelter, etc.) for exactly the same effort. Studies are clear that even young children, across cultural lines, will see that as unfair and react negatively to the one who was getting the bigger benefit.

That is the innate fairness impulse at work.

Now imagine that *you* are the one getting the higher benefit. If the other guy cannot see what we're getting, we are likely to be happy with the arrangement and deny that it is unfair. That is the selfish impulse.

If the other guy does see and objects, we're very likely to acknowledge some imbalance, but compromise by only giving *some* of our excess gains back.

In a society though, there are a number of people around us, and yet only one of us. So when 'unfair" things happen they are more likely to happen to other people, which we find innately objectionable. Laws are only passed because we know we hate to see unfairness except when it benefits us personally. We have an innate aversion to that. Usually there are more situations where other people will benefit from unfairness than there are those in which we will benefit, so on balance we are happy to place a priori limits on them. If we had no innate sense of fairness, then unfairness would never upset us. We'd have no concept of "fairness" at all, let alone an emotional intuition about what was unfair. It's the innate sense of it that leads us to be mad when we see (other) people benefiting unfairly...and that is the impetus for passing laws against unfairness in the first place.

If you look online at the psychological an anthropological literature on fairness, it's evident that the sense in innate in most (if not all) primates, including humans.

As for what "innate" means, it does not always mean "always obviously on display". We have an innate instinct for self-preservation, but that does not mean that no one, ever, risks their lives. We have an innate capacity to love, but that doesn't mean that everyone behaves lovingly all the time, and competing emotions never conflict with love. We have innate affinity for pleasure, but that doesn't mean that no one denies themselves pleasure. "Innate" means you are born with the sense of fairness, without it needing to be taught to you, but that doesn't mean that competing impulses never override the sense of fairness.
 
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