Church and State in the U.S.

Ethics are ethics. Christians are Christians.

The two ain't necessarily the same thing. ... Plus a lot of the founding fathers were Deists, and Tom Paine was pretty much an atheist.

The (to be simple) list of neural objects going from stimulii to religion is difficult. It involves ideas, concepts, and beliefs to name a few. Religion, a religion, is a system of beliefs. In a specific religion those beliefs are codified (outlined and written) into doctrine along with all the accompanying 'stuff' that it wants people to accept. I am saying that it does not matter what a person believes as a citizen of the United States, but rather that the underlying base of ethics (agreements between people that bind them into a civilization) must be held firm, and that officals of the government today seem to have lost touch with the knowledge and practice of those ethics.

In light of that, I say that as a free people we should not even need to discuss the legality of a person or group to raise a flag or display a cross in this society. It should be a given that the right is there for them to do that. When the question rises, then the flag for me is that people are not getting the message that the reason we sacrifice, fight, and die is for the right to display the symbols of our ideals. Division of Church and State: Get an education, join the Army, go to church, do something to educate yourself and stop ignorance from becoming a standard of behavior.
 
I am not interested in the litigation or interpretations of politicians regards foreign policy as they are for the most part self serving in territorial matters. My concern is the near total lack of ethical consideration in legal matters pertaining to the Constitution of the United States and the citizens of the United States. To secure these ethics is of utmost importance.
Your initial claim was:
The Constitution clearly defines and delineates the revelence of the Christian model in social action as it applies to law in the U.S.
I would think that this legal document, which was written while George Washington was still in office and then subsequently ratified by unanimous vote, would clearly debunk that claim.

But more importantly, it appears that you suffer from some delusion that religion in general (and Christianity in particular) has some sort of monopoly on moral and ethical behaviour.
 
Christianity, as practiced in any society or community, takes it's ethics from the people, who use those innate ethics to interpret the Bible. If we took Biblical ethics seriously, we would have the death penalty for those who commit adultery, eat shrimp, or wear clothing made from more than one type of fabric. Many of the founders of the USA were not Christians, they were deists.

Theism in general is a poor model for a government, and we have to get past it, because it values faith, which robs human beings of their dignity and intellect. It says that we have to accept things without evidence on the authority of a secondhand report, even to accept things in light of contrary evidence.

The ethics of faith are not rational, and they cannot be questioned. Evidence based reasoning and skepticism are the basis of an ethical government.
 
. . . in my opinion has been the folly of lawyers through the last 200 years, saying that the 10 commandments are not written in stone. . .


I am not talking about the actual commandments

You have just contradicted yourself. Either the 10 commandments are written in stone or they're not - which is it?
 
The Sermon on the Mount given by Christ is probably the best source of an ethical doctrine that would have influenced the writing of the Constitution, in my opinion.

That's certainly one of them. The Magna Carta was a much stronger influence, as was the Declaration of Independence and Common Sense. In terms of people, the Constitution is based far more on the teachings of Thomas Paine than on Jesus Christ. (Which is a good thing.)

Religion has real importance and impact in society.

Agreed. And that's true whether the person is Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Muslim or Hindu.
 
I made plain the separation of the church (Christian denominations), its political activities, and the ethics that it expouses, as being the intellectual base of law found in the Constitution.

The intellectual base of American law was British law. That is 100% clear.

The legal ideas incorporated into the Constitution and the U.S. Bill of Rights arose as a result of Enlightenment thinkers like John Locke and legal advancements like the Bill of Rights of 1689. It was an outgrowth of the philosophical movements that were advanced by the Glorious Revolution but the benefits of which advancements could not be fully realized in Great Britain because of entrenched traditions and political structures.

The history of the political and legal philosophy that led to the Constitution are really well understood, and it seems very clear that this was an outgrowth of intellectual developments that were then taking place in Britain, not in intellectual and ethical developments that took place in Judea 2,000 prior. None of the Constitution, nor federal, nor State laws look to the Bible for guidance. All of them (save Louisiana) were a direct outgrowth of the British legal system. (Louisiana's was an outgrowth of the French legal system, heavily influenced by the legal systems of its neighbors over time.)

Even the complaints that led to the Revolution mostly amounted to, "Americans should have the same rights as the British, and you are denying us those rights," and not "British people are oppressed and we reject that oppression."

There are a few elements of Biblical ethics that can be seen in U.S. law, like the prohibition on murder and theft...but those existed in Roman and other pagan ethical systems as well. The laws that were clearly Biblically derived were things like Blue Laws, laws criminalizing contraception and laws criminalizing adultery and sodomy, not any of the grander ethical principles. (And many of those religious laws have by now been struck down, with good reason.)

If you believe that U.S. law has a Christian base, then why are laws criminalizing sodomy considered archaic (and, unconstitutional)? Why in the Constitution itself would it ban "religious tests" as a criterion for holding public office? Where in the Bible do you see an ethic that suggests pagans should get equal access to being in the leadership?

Indeed, why have American lawyers been quoting Blackstone for 235 years—a famous English jurist?

All of these things are easier to explain if you view our laws as being primarily derived from British law within the historical context of 18th century America.

Regardless of the fact that Christ is mentioned in the document or not,

He isn't.

religion is fundamental to the core of any civilization.

What religion is Japan? Do you really believe that shintoism is fundamental to core of their government? Or do you believe that they have no civilization there?

They have both Shintoism/Buddhism as the predominant religion(s) *and* a state structure that is very much westernized, just as ours is. That is because we established their modern government after WWII, but, if religion must be the "core", then how can their government possibly be stable when only 2% of their population is Christian, and the rest mostly Shinto, Buddhist or both?

A similar question can be asked of India, another westernized democracy in a nation of relatively few Christians.

Do you believe these countries and others in the same position are on the verge of societal collapse?

In the United States, during the writing of the Constitution, that religion was Christian.

It's true that a majority of the people were Christian...but there were others as well. The first synagogue in America pre-dated "America" as a nation. Of the founding fathers, several were deists, some denied Christ's divinity, some denied that Jesus ever performed miracles, many rejected the idea of a "trinity," and many like Franklin did not believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

All of those men were elites (certainly having little in common with "the people" in general) heavily influenced by the doctrines of the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment was a largely secular movement that had at its core much of the philosophy of Spinoza, a Jew in Holland, and that spread in part as a reaction to the many wars and civil unrest created by Christianity in Europe. Spinoza in particular was from a family that had to flee Spain in order to avoid torture and death.

The debates (and records of them at the federal convention exist) discussed liberty in terms of Enlightenment ideals and Enlightenment thinking. There was no great discussion of what Jesus would want, or on questions of biblical interpretation.

If they were big into biblical ethics, then why rebel against the Britain at all? After all, the Bible says:

Romans 13:1-5: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."

and

1 Peter 2:13-14: "Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right."
 
Can you have ethics without religion? Yes. So you can have an ethical government without religion too.

The only thing that religion adds is a celestial enforcer to instill fear in people for not being ethical. You have to wonder if a person being ethical out of fear is really an ethical person at all. What it means is that religion teaches that people are fundamentally unethical.

The reality is that most people are ethical because we have an innate sense of fairness and some are not (probably sociopaths).
 
Legally, there is in the USA. One's religious feelings do inform political views, but that's about it.

i do believe the united states sees the vatican as its one state or country which would throw the seperation between church and state out the window

correct me if im wrong im not 100% sure
 
The Vatican is both church and state, but it's not the USA, so... not sure what point you are trying to make.
 
Your initial claim was:

I would think that this legal document, which was written while George Washington was still in office and then subsequently ratified by unanimous vote, would clearly debunk that claim.

But more importantly, it appears that you suffer from some delusion that religion in general (and Christianity in particular) has some sort of monopoly on moral and ethical behaviour.

I see no opposing view or point from you. My point is undenyable. The intellectual base of our law is derived from the religions of history. Here is just one: The Code of Hammurabi is a well-preserved Babylonian law code, dating to ca. 1700 BC (short chronology). "Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule in the land."

It does not matter if the judge is an athiest or a Buddhist. It matters that the legal system upholds the agreements found in the Constitution, as read from the moral code found in (especially the) Christian religion, because - that was and is the foundation of the agreements between a free people. I think, if you want to found an athiest state you will need to do it elsewhere with some other set of agreements.

The law read from an athiest perspective violates the foundation of the code. That is not allowed by definition. The United States is a nation of God fearing people, so to speak, that have the right to express their religious beliefs publically in legal settings including court rooms throughout the land. Hang a cross over the White House if you wish. It would be in keeping with the traditions of the country. There is no separation of church and state in the intellectual base of the agreements, and that is the case that has been wrongly twisted over the last 50 years.
 
The intellectual base of American law was British law. That is 100% clear."

Sorry, don't have much time now, got to get to work (be back later).

U.S. law has a primarily Roman derivative. Also, the day after the signing of the Constitution lawyers started getting wacky about it, and some of the decisions hooked and sliced rather than going down the center of the fareway. Sorry again. Gotta go.
 
I see no opposing view or point from you. My point is undenyable. The intellectual base of our law is derived from the religions of history. Here is just one: The Code of Hammurabi is a well-preserved Babylonian law code, dating to ca. 1700 BC (short chronology). "Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule in the land."

It does not matter if the judge is an athiest or a Buddhist. It matters that the legal system upholds the agreements found in the Constitution, as read from the moral code found in (especially the) Christian religion, because - that was and is the foundation of the agreements between a free people. I think, if you want to found an athiest state you will need to do it elsewhere with some other set of agreements.

The law read from an athiest perspective violates the foundation of the code. That is not allowed by definition. The United States is a nation of God fearing people, so to speak, that have the right to express their religious beliefs publically in legal settings including court rooms throughout the land. Hang a cross over the White House if you wish. It would be in keeping with the traditions of the country. There is no separation of church and state in the intellectual base of the agreements, and that is the case that has been wrongly twisted over the last 50 years.

You got it backwards. Religions got their ethics from the innate sense of fairness we have as human beings in a society.
 
I see no opposing view or point from you. My point is undenyable. The intellectual base of our law is derived from the religions of history.
Even if that was true, religion comes from human beings. So, obviously, the moral and ethical ideas of religion come from human beings.

Whoops, I see that spidergoat beat me to it.
 
U.S. law has a primarily Roman derivative. Also, the day after the signing of the Constitution lawyers started getting wacky about it, and some of the decisions hooked and sliced rather than going down the center of the fareway. Sorry again. Gotta go.

No problem. I am afraid that you have picked up a point about the history of the law (and particularly Roman law) that is erroneous. Roman law had a great effect on western European law, but not nearly as big an effect on the British and our U.S. law as it did on continental law (and the Civil Code).

For example, the Romans did not have a "common law" system. The British did (and still do). The U.S. does. The Romans did not have "juries." The British did (and still do). The U.S. does.

In fact, what happened is this, the continental European system (like France) was deeply influenced by Roman law after the rediscovery in the West of the texts of and various commentaries on Roman law in the 16th and 17th centuries. The British legal system picked up some Roman influences over time, but British law was so firmly established by then that there was no need to chuck it wholesale.

On the continent, many localities did not have nearly so formal a system of laws. As they were in the process of standardizing anyway, it made sense to adopt the Roman forms, because they work reasonably well and were time-tested and refined.

Unlike the rest of western Europe, Britain maintained its own legal traditions, which is why a British trial is so very much different than a continental trial (or a Roman one). U.S. law the day before the Revolution was British, and no one ever bothered to rewrite all of American law after the Revolution (as that would have been a nightmare) to match the standards of Roman law. Remember, Roman law was imperial law. There was a Senate, but it was run by aristocrats. In the founders eyes, the Romans were laudable in their culture and philosophy, but the British were undeniably "more free". The Bill of Rights itself is clearly modeled on the British Bill of Rights of 1689.

I do not have a definitive online source for you to review on the impact of Roman law on the west, but you can start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_law#In_the_West
 
Even if that was true, religion comes from human beings. So, obviously, the moral and ethical ideas of religion come from human beings.

Whoops, I see that spidergoat beat me to it.

No problem gmilam, great minds...
 
You got it backwards. Religions got their ethics from the innate sense of fairness we have as human beings in a society.

is this supposed to be funny? i mean, are you being sarcastic? seriously, our innate sense of fairness? :confused:

:roflmao:


so anyway, in regards to church and state, explain the whole bizarro liquor laws on sundays thing. dry counties in the bible belt and whatnot...
 
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