Church and Hitler

Read a freakin' history book. Hitler was an avowed Catholic his entire life. He often talked about how he was doing "the lord's work" in fighting the Jews. His hatred for the Jews was in large part a religious hatred. He made a special point to persecute the Greek Orthodox people in the countries that he conquered because he considered them to be heretics.

Why don't you read a freaking history book and figure out when he started doing the Gods work? And why? :rolleyes:

Oh btw can you explain why he imprisoned 12,000 German priests and killed over 7,000 of them, many more nuns and protestant pastors, banned listening radio in Germany Vatican under the threat of imprisonment, etc?

Or explain this?
Hitler did make anti-Christian remarks, like his October 10, 1941 claim that "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (Adolph Hitler, "Table Talk," London, Weidenfelt & Nicholson, 1953)

Hmm?
 
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thats probably because there aren't any, ....

There you go, you see having a belief or unbelief says absolutely nothing about motives. Thanks for clearing that up so nicely.:)

I'm sure there were no areligious motives behind any destruction or massacre committed by atheists.
 
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I'm sure there were no areligious motives behind any destruction or massacre committed by atheists.

Page 2, my links. These massacre's were not committed by atheists. In fact it's entirely inconclusive. Although there is more evidence saying that those massacre's were of religious origin.

It really does not matter. As I know of none of them that were based on those views. They were based on fascism. That is not atheism.

So, uh, guess what? It doesn't matter if he's a free-thinker. Stop with the pointing of the god damn fingers already.
 
The religiously deluded will always attempt to paint atheism as an evil entity in the same vein as religion that has motivations that are for the sake of atheism. The problem is, atheism isn't a belief system so much as its a lack of a belief system, though, admittedly, there are militant atheists such as myself that seek to actively defend rational thought while criticizing the deluded.

I should think the reason behind the irrational application of "evil atheism" by the religiously deluded is simply because, on some level, they realize the illogical and unreasoned position they've chosen. Moreover, it is very clear that religion, unlike atheism, *is* organized with hierarchies that very often choose to kill and terrorize in the names of their gods. Hitler wasn't an atheist, and his actions were biblical in nature (genocide is a very Old Testament idea, after all -just read the book of Samuel). Other dictators and tyrants (Stalin, Pol Pot) were atheist, but only the seriously deluded would suggest that there actions were in the name of atheism or even because of atheism. The fact of the matter is, there are far more examples of religious nutters killing for their gods than there are atheists killing for [insert reason].

Finally, this thread is about the PBS documentary on atheism. Please, kindly, allow it to go back on topic.
 
Page 2, my links. These massacre's were not committed by atheists. In fact it's entirely inconclusive. Although there is more evidence saying that those massacre's were of religious origin.

It really does not matter. As I know of none of them that were based on those views. They were based on fascism. That is not atheism.

So, uh, guess what? It doesn't matter if he's a free-thinker. Stop with the pointing of the god damn fingers already.

I hear most al-Qaeda recruits are dissatisfied young men from secular families.

Guess that makes al-Qaeda a secular institution. Like Saddam's governance, mayhaps? :p
 
lightgigantic said:
there's your belief system (theist = deluded) - unless of course you have peer reviewed empirical evidence that god doesn't exist .....

That's technically not true. Since there remains no evidence for a god, (even if there is a god), they are still deluded - they just got lucky. If a caveman strongly believed that Quark existed, he would still be delusional even as is turned out he had a flukey guess.
 
I hear most al-Qaeda recruits are dissatisfied young men from secular families.

Guess that makes al-Qaeda a secular institution. Like Saddam's governance, mayhaps? :p

pffft :rolleyes: keep calling the kettle black, no one is going to believe you.
al-qaeda secular?
those dissatisfied men still kill in the name of their religion.

they are the ones who've failed to be raised as secular individuals and have become radical and revolted against rationalism.

read about hitler's christianity here:
http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

that is a myth about hitler.
http://nobeliefs.com/hitler-myths.htm

the others you referred to earlier, pol pot, stalin, mao, killed in the name of communism, not atheism.
pol pot killed people he thought were "intellectuals".
 
"Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades.

It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history"

Dinesh D'Souza is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution. His new book, "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11," will be published in January.

Now we all know where the quote came from.
 
Its equivalent to the ratio of atheists in the population.

Out of 10-14% atheists, how many would come to power? And out of those who come to power how many would be dictators? Out of those who are dictators, how many would kill for a perfect society? etc.

You have to use standard errors for a disproportionate sample, not a standard deviation and correct the model accordingly.:)

Time and again theists and supporters come up with ways to surprise me. How in the hell could you derive a pattern from statistics that have yet to happen? Therefore then your 100% sample is effectively zero.

Until statistics are shown, Dinesh's statement that you've quoted is crock.
 
I hear most al-Qaeda recruits are dissatisfied young men from secular families.

Guess that makes al-Qaeda a secular institution. Like Saddam's governance, mayhaps? :p

You heard this sam? From where? A line of gossipy housewives in burkas? Or you assume that "most" must be like the few profiled by the news networks?
 
Why don't you read a freaking history book and figure out when he started doing the Gods work? And why? :rolleyes:
I'm not sure what you are trying to imply here. Hitler was raised Christian, and even his earliest writing and speeches are full of religious rhetoric. He apparently thought he was doing god's work all along.
Oh btw can you explain why he imprisoned 12,000 German priests and killed over 7,000 of them, many more nuns and protestant pastors, banned listening radio in Germany Vatican under the threat of imprisonment, etc?
Since when have christians ever shown any reluctance toward mistreating or killing other christians?
Or explain this?

Hitler did make anti-Christian remarks, like his October 10, 1941 claim that "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (Adolph Hitler, "Table Talk," London, Weidenfelt & Nicholson, 1953)

Hmm?
There are a mountain of quotes from well-documented sources on Hitler, including transcripts of his numerous public speeches, his letters to friends, and even his own book Mein Kampf that all show him to be a christian with a religious hatred of Jews. But you choose to ignore all of those, and pull out a quote from "Table Talk," a second-hand source that few historians take seriously because most of the things in it contradict every other record regarding Hitler. Nice. Of course, if you want to ague that Hitler was an atheist, you would also need to contend with these quotes that come from the very same source as your quote:
An uneducated man, on the other hand, runs the risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the animal)... Table-Talk [p. 59]

As long as we're throwing Hitler quotes around, chew on these. Note that these are from primary sources.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognised these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognise more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice...and if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. "
Speech in Munich (12 April 1922)

I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work. Mein Kampf
 
Since when have christians ever shown any reluctance toward mistreating or killing other christians?

god-v-satan.png
 
Huhy,

Is this right?:bugeye:

LOOK at the dates on the images from the misleading site you linked to, the dates are long before the start of WW2. Pictures of a world leader, which Hitler was at the time, with the Pope was common, this was a photo op\formality.... ALL THE IMAGES DATE TO LONG BEFORE THE START OF WW2- I guarantee that ther third reich did not disclose their plans to the catholic church or anyone else for that matter.

Then you need to ask what political power the Catholic church had or even has now, do you think they had any input at all on WW2?
 
Also the Catholic church is based in ITALY, and Italy was never involved with any anti-Jewish Nazism. They did change sides didnt they?
 
Also the Catholic church is based in ITALY, and Italy was never involved with any anti-Jewish Nazism. They did change sides didnt they?

*************
M*W: I located the below-notated work of Joshua D. Zimmermann, Jews in Italy under Fascist and Nazi rule, 1922-1945, University of Cambridge Press, 2005. ISBN: 0521841011 9780521841016

A brief introduction is as follows:

"The Jews represent the only population which has never assimilated in Italy because it is made up of racial elements which are not European, differing absolutely from the elements that make up the Italians.

Until recently, the subject of Italian Jewry under Fascist rule received little attention in English-language Holocaust historiography. A combination of factors, including the size of the community and the relatively small number of victims--about 8 out of every 10 Italian Jews survived the war--partly accounted for this neglect in historical literature. With the third highest survival rate after Denmark and Bulgaria, a consensus emerged that Italian Fascist persecution of Jews was not only mild but that Mussolini, the Italian armed forces, Italian civilians, and many church officials consistently protected Jews throughout the war years. Many scholars do not dispute the fact that while Nazi Germany began its genocidal assault on European Jewry in June 1941, Fascist Italy, as long as it remained a sovereign state, became a haven of safety and security not only for Italian Jews but for thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution in both the peninsula as well as the Italian-occupied zones of France, Greece, and Croatia.

Yet when the Germans occupied Italy in September 1943 and placed Mussolini at the head of a puppet Fascist state known as the Republic of Salò, tragedy struck Italian Jewry. In collaboration with Mussolini’s republic, the Nazis implemented their Final Solution on Italian soil. Over the next 20 months, Italian and German authorities hunted down Jewish men, women, and children in German-occupied northern Italy, which led to the arrest of 8,529 Jews of whom an estimated 6,806 were deported to concentration and death camps.

Historians have not until recently drawn attention to the degree of Italian complicity in the implementation of Nazi Jewish policy on Italian soil. Rather, they highlighted the degree to which many officials of the Salò Republic, while outwardly and officially complying with Nazi demands, strove as much as possible to obstruct German roundup and deportation actions by warning Jewish communities in advance of impeding mass arrests. Thus, when comparing Italy with other European countries, historians of the Holocaust often characterized both the Italian government and the Italian people as shining examples of heroic resistance to Nazi barbarism.

The decidedly positive evaluation of Italy during the Holocaust was articulated at a 1986 conference in Boston dedicated to Italian rescue efforts during the Holocaust. One historian maintained, the Holocaust is to a considerable extent a study in the potentialities of human evil and inhumanity. However, within all the horror, there were still sparks of good and hope....Italy was one of these sparks which illuminated human good, compassion, and tolerance....While the evil [of the Holocaust] cannot be forgotten, its darkness all the more serves to contrast with the light of the Italian response."
 
Also the Catholic church is based in ITALY, and Italy was never involved with any anti-Jewish Nazism. They did change sides didnt they?

Again, all I can say to this is read a freakin' history book. The amount of nonsense being thrown around by the Christians in this thread is beyond belief. It's not like this is esoteric stuff - you should have learned all this is highschool history class.
 
I have come to two different sources, both people, claiming difference's on the Roman Catholic Church's involvement with Hitler in WW2. Before you tell me to go look it up myself, i tried, and the only stuff I got ... well... some sources contradicted each other. I have no idea which is right and I was hoping one of you very bright individuals could tell me? ;)
here
www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
 
Again, all I can say to this is read a freakin' history book. The amount of nonsense being thrown around by the Christians in this thread is beyond belief. It's not like this is esoteric stuff - you should have learned all this is highschool history class.

what nonsense are you talking about?
 
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