Church and Hitler

The Nazi regime was aimed at the creation of a "perfect" society by eliminating the "undesirables".

This is a running theme of atheist dictators.

To address this spurious and lackluster comment directly; even if you were right that every single nazi subscribed to atheism, where do you get off saying that there is a running theme of athiest dictators? Do you detect a pattern from more than say 3 athiest dictators? (And by athiest dictators I mean anyone on Hitler's level who outspokenly said that they do not believe in any form of god, deity or divinity).

Can you show me a proven 'theme' that 1. there have been a statistically useful set of athiest dictators, and that if so 2. their goal was exactly the same as the nazi regime?
 
Sam sweetiepie...note that I said I was not considering all the other atrocities for the purposes of this discussion. I said ONE of the aspects was to attack what they percieved as threatening religions. Judaism and JW were two. Catholicism and Protestant(ism) were state approved. The nazis therefore could not be an athiest regime. Finis.
 
I thought Hitler was a Christian, or did he just claim to be?

He was anti-Christianity, then he realised he could get more people on his side if he was pro-Christian.

Basically he was just a nutter.
 
Whatever Hitler's motivation, the nazi regime supported catholicism. Therefore the regime could not be athiestic.

What's a woo-woo Sam?
 
To address this spurious and lackluster comment directly; even if you were right that every single nazi subscribed to atheism, where do you get off saying that there is a running theme of athiest dictators? Do you detect a pattern from more than say 3 athiest dictators? (And by athiest dictators I mean anyone on Hitler's level who outspokenly said that they do not believe in any form of god, deity or divinity).

Can you show me a proven 'theme' that 1. there have been a statistically useful set of athiest dictators, and that if so 2. their goal was exactly the same as the nazi regime?

Easy enough to disprove; show me an atheist dictator who did not eliminate people that did not "fit into" his perfect society.
 
Easy enough to disprove; show me an atheist dictator who did not eliminate people that did not "fit into" his perfect society.

Extremely dodgy Sam, you made the claim, now prove it.

My whole point of addressing your statement was to show you that you do not even have a significant sample on which to draw a pattern from. Two or three athiest dictators do not a pattern make.

Let's put it another way. Show me ANY dictator who did not eliminate people that didn't fit into his perfect society. Let's start from christianity's god and move from there shall we?
 
Extremely dodgy Sam, you made the claim, now prove it.

My whole point of addressing your statement was to show you that you do not even have a significant sample on which to draw a pattern from. Two or three athiest dictators do not a pattern make.

Let's put it another way. Show me ANY dictator who did not eliminate people that didn't fit into his perfect society. Let's start from christianity's god and move from there shall we?

Sure take any dictator who was not atheist. :p

Btw, Christianity's god cannot be a dictator, unless you can prove that he is a person.

Pick any atheist dictator. He/she will have killed more people in the name of social perfection than any theist dictator.
 
I just did...and christianity's god killed everyone who didn't fit into his perfect society. Plus you're still avoiding my initial challenge by reversing the question on me. Very LG of you Sam.
 
I just did...and christianity's god killed everyone who didn't fit into his perfect society. Plus you're still avoiding my initial challenge by reversing the question on me. Very LG of you Sam.

You could pick any atheist dictator who doesn't fit the paradigm, obviously you cannot find one.:p
 
I thought no-one watched PBS anymore.

I do :bugeye:

The Nazi regime was aimed at the creation of a "perfect" society by eliminating the "undesirables".

This is a running theme of atheist dictators.

Sorry, but both Hitler, and other dictators that theists love to label as "atheist" were never conclusively proven to be so. I've read many conflicting quotes from both hitler and others, in private and public.

It's entirely unfair, and illogical, to give labels anyway. Many theists have caused massive destruction in the past.

Hitler may have been personally atheist, but he used religion as a tool of control.

No, spider, as I said before. You should google for quotes, in fact I'll give you a few websites:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#hitler
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/murphy_19_2.html

Google for more. The evidence for hitler, as well as many other dictators, is a far cry from conclusive.

I find it sad that the atheists on this thread have so far not even done a simple google to find a conclusive answer. It's your firm held belief that a God doesn't exist, and ye have questioned theist claims time and again. would it not have made sense to apply that same skeptic nature to claims such as these?
 
You could pick any atheist dictator who doesn't fit the paradigm, obviously you cannot find one.:p

Babes, I haven't even tried. Simply because you reversed my request for supporting evidence. I'm not even going to bother with this until you prove your own assertation.
 
Babes, I haven't even tried. Simply because you reversed my request for supporting evidence. I'm not even going to bother with this until you prove your own assertation.

I picked them all. 100% is a statistically significant sample. :)

"all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."
 
I picked them all. 100% is a statistically significant sample. :)

"all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."

I see no source for that quote there. Or any factual evidence other than most likely made-up statistics.

Also, "in the name of atheism"? So someone went around shouting "IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM I KILL YOU!"?

Sorry, but Atheism doesn't go around killing "in the name of Atheism". That's stupid.
 
The Nazi regime was aimed at the creation of a "perfect" society by eliminating the "undesirables".

This is a running theme of atheist dictators.
Read a freakin' history book. Hitler was an avowed Catholic his entire life. He often talked about how he was doing "the lord's work" in fighting the Jews. His hatred for the Jews was in large part a religious hatred. He made a special point to persecute the Greek Orthodox people in the countries that he conquered because he considered them to be heretics.
 
You could pick any atheist dictator who doesn't fit the paradigm, obviously you cannot find one.:p
thats probably because there aren't any, People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

this is a common mistake made by theists, typically those of the fundy type, they believe atheism is essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, atheism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. How stupid!

the first thing we should note is there is an automatic and almost unconscious assumption made by these theists that their religion is somehow equivalent with captialism.

Communism is not, however, inherently atheistic. It is possible to have communistic or socialistic views while being a theist and it isn't at all wrong to be an atheist while staunchly defending capitalism, which is a combination often found among objectivists and libertarians.
their existence alone demonstrates, that atheism and communism are not the same thing.

is christianity opposed to commuism? No, the opposite, actually. There is nothing in the gospels which even so much as suggests a divine preference for captialism, now is there.

quite a bit of what Jesus said supports many of the of socialism and even communism. He specifically said that that people should give all they could to the poor and that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

basic communism states to hold all property in common rather than privately, is practiced by numerous Christian communities now and throughout history. references to it can be found in Acts:

Acts 4:33-35 "With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. "
The similarity to Marx's principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" should be obvious.

and here again in Acts:

Acts 5:1-11 "But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; with his wife’s knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. "Ananias," Peter asked, "why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!" Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

The young men came and wrapped up his body, then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you and your husband sold the land for such and such a price." And she said, "Yes, that was the price." Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things."

their deaths served as an example to all the others of what would happen if they, too, held back profits for themselves instead of giving everything to the community.
so we can see that this was the first christian commune(ist) society.

so please lets get away from this silly reference to atheism and communism being the same, the bible is basically a communist manifesto.
 
I picked them all. 100% is a statistically significant sample. :)

"all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades."


1. Who's "them all"? And how many are there?
2. Two athiest dictators out of four hundred dictators is statistically useless. Two of anything is statistically useless to derive a pattern.
3. That quote has no backup or shred of truth.


4. Casualties of the Crusades is estimated at 1,500,000 (inclusive of zealots who died stupidly starving or virus ridden in pursuit of a "higher calling"). Estimated casualties of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear strike - 200,000. It seems that nuclear weaponry pales in comparison to religious fervour and drive. Just as a comparison. :shrug:
 
1. Who's "them all"? And how many are there?
2. Two athiest dictators out of four hundred dictators is statistically useless. Two of anything is statistically useless to derive a pattern.
3. That quote has no backup or shred of truth.


4. Casualties of the Crusades is estimated at 1,500,000 (inclusive of zealots who died stupidly starving or virus ridden in pursuit of a "higher calling"). Estimated casualties of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear strike - 200,000. It seems that nuclear weaponry pales in comparison to religious fervour and drive. Just as a comparison. :shrug:

Its equivalent to the ratio of atheists in the population.

Out of 10-14% atheists, how many would come to power? And out of those who come to power how many would be dictators? Out of those who are dictators, how many would kill for a perfect society? etc.

You have to use standard errors for a disproportionate sample, not a standard deviation and correct the model accordingly.:)
 
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