We don't. We don't celebrate the birth of some mythical chap. We use that date as a simple excuse to live it up. Same as Halloween, February 29th, Melbourne Cup day, the Ashes, and many other dates. Whatever importance the christians attach to the time is irrelevent. It's just another day for a party.
And another point, how do you know Athiests celebrate christmas? Could be another holiday just on the same date. An example from Seinfeld when George's dad made a holiday called 'Festive'. Its a day when the family comes together WITHOUT the religious stuff.
In fact, I'm gonna start doing that. I'm sure Pollux would join me
Edit: I don't celebrate the birth of Jesus. Never have done, never will do
In fact, I'm gonna start doing that. I'm sure Pollux would join me
Edit: I don't celebrate the birth of Jesus. Never have done, never will do
Q
Your suspitions are wrong.
No, I don't think so, and in fact, my suspicions are increasing.
Let me simplify the question for you.
Unfortunately, the question is not that simple, and neither is the answer, which is why you need to clarify your position. If you don't, then your question is meaningless and can only be seen as a vehicle to berate our fine, upstanding sciforums members. You are simply setting a trap to make everyone look like fools. However, if you were to outline your Christmas celebrations in not too great of detail of course, I think we will find that it is you who is guilty of being a hypocrite and looking the fool.
Athiests do not believe Jesus Christ existed, but yet they celebrate His birth (Christmas)......Why?
Like I said, you need to clarify exactly what you consider celebration of his birth and what it is you yourself do to celebrate his birth.
Your suspitions are wrong.
No, I don't think so, and in fact, my suspicions are increasing.
Let me simplify the question for you.
Unfortunately, the question is not that simple, and neither is the answer, which is why you need to clarify your position. If you don't, then your question is meaningless and can only be seen as a vehicle to berate our fine, upstanding sciforums members. You are simply setting a trap to make everyone look like fools. However, if you were to outline your Christmas celebrations in not too great of detail of course, I think we will find that it is you who is guilty of being a hypocrite and looking the fool.
Athiests do not believe Jesus Christ existed, but yet they celebrate His birth (Christmas)......Why?
Like I said, you need to clarify exactly what you consider celebration of his birth and what it is you yourself do to celebrate his birth.
Australia was established primarily by christians from England. They of course brought that tradition with them. However, the religion didn't last long here; it's pretty much dead. But we kept the christmas occasion as an excuse to party. Hannakah never had such an introduction here.
Christmas is barely Christian
What, other than going to mass/church service, is Christian about the "Christmas" Holiday?
Check out some history about various "Christian" customs:
December 25th
"There were mid-winter festivals in ancient Babylon and Egypt, and Germanic fertility festivals also took place at this time. The birth of the ancient sun-god Attis in Phrygia was celebrated on December 25th, as was the birth of the Persian sun-god, Mithras. The Romans celebrated Saturnalia, a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of peace and plenty, that ran from the 17th to 24th of December. Public gathering places were decorated with flowers, gifts and candles were exchanged and the population, slaves and masters alike, celebrated the occasion with great enthusiasm."
http://www.christmas-time.com/cp-hist.html
"Christmas" Candles, The Yule Log
Can be traced back to pagan Solstice celebrations. The candle/fire-light was an important symbol on the shortest day of the year. The word Yule, itself, is a Scandinavian name for a series of winter festivals.
Holly and Mistletoe
"Holly, Ivy and other greenery such as Mistletoe were originally used in the pre-Christian times to help celebrate the Winter Solstice Festival and ward off evil spirits and celebrate new growth."
http://www.whychristmas.com
Holiday Carols
"Carols were first sung in Europe thousands of years ago, but these were not Christmas Carols. They were pagan songs, sung at the Winter Solstice celebration as people danced round stone circles. The Winter Solstice is the shortest day of the year, usually around the 22nd December. The word Carols actually means dance or a song of praise and joy! Carols used to be written and sung during all four seasons, but only the tradition of singing them at Christmas survived!"
http://www.whychristmas.com
The "Christmas" Tree
"Winter in the northern countries was harsh. As the early Germans observed Fall with the gradual dying of nature, when plants and leaves of trees began to change color, shriveled up and fell to the ground, followed by Winter with ice and snow, they blamed evil spirits for the "killing." Only a few trees stayed "alive," the evergreens, and to them they became a symbol of immortality. Good spirits and the magic power of the evergreen were believed to resist the life-threatening powers of darkness and cold. They believed in the special powers of these trees and wherever they were, evil spirits could not go, so they brought the greenery into their homes.
...
The decorated tree was originally a pagan tradition in Germany's upper Rhine region. A decorated holly tree was brought into the house and even placed in the village square. We know this because in 14th-century Alsace laws were written which forbade farmers to cut down evergreens for Christmas uses.
In the 15th or 16th century, the church gave new meaning to the customary symbol of life by decorating trees during the holiday season with apples to symbolize Adam and Eve's expulsion from Eden. Greens were incorporated into medieval miracle plays and into a Christmas a play, honoring Adam and Eve, that was traditionally presented. An evergreen hung with apples, the fruit of knowledge, was the stage prop."
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/xmastree.htm
As you can see. The "Christmas" holiday can hardly be considered exclusively Christian. As a matter of fact, most of the things that you do, thinking that they are Christian, are actually pagan in origin.
The question should be, why do Christian practice pagan traditions on Christmas?
~Raithere
You're missing the point here.
What, other than going to mass/church service, is Christian about the "Christmas" Holiday?
Check out some history about various "Christian" customs:
December 25th
"There were mid-winter festivals in ancient Babylon and Egypt, and Germanic fertility festivals also took place at this time. The birth of the ancient sun-god Attis in Phrygia was celebrated on December 25th, as was the birth of the Persian sun-god, Mithras. The Romans celebrated Saturnalia, a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of peace and plenty, that ran from the 17th to 24th of December. Public gathering places were decorated with flowers, gifts and candles were exchanged and the population, slaves and masters alike, celebrated the occasion with great enthusiasm."
http://www.christmas-time.com/cp-hist.html
"Christmas" Candles, The Yule Log
Can be traced back to pagan Solstice celebrations. The candle/fire-light was an important symbol on the shortest day of the year. The word Yule, itself, is a Scandinavian name for a series of winter festivals.
Holly and Mistletoe
"Holly, Ivy and other greenery such as Mistletoe were originally used in the pre-Christian times to help celebrate the Winter Solstice Festival and ward off evil spirits and celebrate new growth."
http://www.whychristmas.com
Holiday Carols
"Carols were first sung in Europe thousands of years ago, but these were not Christmas Carols. They were pagan songs, sung at the Winter Solstice celebration as people danced round stone circles. The Winter Solstice is the shortest day of the year, usually around the 22nd December. The word Carols actually means dance or a song of praise and joy! Carols used to be written and sung during all four seasons, but only the tradition of singing them at Christmas survived!"
http://www.whychristmas.com
The "Christmas" Tree
"Winter in the northern countries was harsh. As the early Germans observed Fall with the gradual dying of nature, when plants and leaves of trees began to change color, shriveled up and fell to the ground, followed by Winter with ice and snow, they blamed evil spirits for the "killing." Only a few trees stayed "alive," the evergreens, and to them they became a symbol of immortality. Good spirits and the magic power of the evergreen were believed to resist the life-threatening powers of darkness and cold. They believed in the special powers of these trees and wherever they were, evil spirits could not go, so they brought the greenery into their homes.
...
The decorated tree was originally a pagan tradition in Germany's upper Rhine region. A decorated holly tree was brought into the house and even placed in the village square. We know this because in 14th-century Alsace laws were written which forbade farmers to cut down evergreens for Christmas uses.
In the 15th or 16th century, the church gave new meaning to the customary symbol of life by decorating trees during the holiday season with apples to symbolize Adam and Eve's expulsion from Eden. Greens were incorporated into medieval miracle plays and into a Christmas a play, honoring Adam and Eve, that was traditionally presented. An evergreen hung with apples, the fruit of knowledge, was the stage prop."
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/xmastree.htm
As you can see. The "Christmas" holiday can hardly be considered exclusively Christian. As a matter of fact, most of the things that you do, thinking that they are Christian, are actually pagan in origin.
The question should be, why do Christian practice pagan traditions on Christmas?
~Raithere
CounslerCoffee
Registered Senior Member
Christmas is a Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.
Heres something I dont understand. Why arent we all singing "Happy BIrthday to you dear Jesus!"? Why arent we lighting candles on a birthday cake? Why are we buying presents for ourselves instead?
Heres something I dont understand. Why arent we all singing "Happy BIrthday to you dear Jesus!"? Why arent we lighting candles on a birthday cake? Why are we buying presents for ourselves instead?
First of all Christmas trees have nothing to do with the Christian religion, neither do holly/mistletoe, neither do candles nor yule logs....I already said that Christmas has turned towards a happy and jolly time rather than about Christ!!!!! When most people hear Christmas they associate it with shopping, Christmas trees, snow, Santa.........BUT Jesus doesn't come to mind first. Only if you celebrate Christmas because of Jesus, would you associate it with him.
Some carols are about the religion, but I don't know if they were just added, like with the Christmas tree.
I don't have much background with Christianity....so your saying december 25 is not the day when Christ was born? The Chrisitians stole the day from another culture?
Some carols are about the religion, but I don't know if they were just added, like with the Christmas tree.
I don't have much background with Christianity....so your saying december 25 is not the day when Christ was born? The Chrisitians stole the day from another culture?
Raithere
You're missing the point here.
Thanks. I was beginning to think about hitting him over the head with a 2x4.
Kizlevru
Only the atheist ones... No, not everyone, just atheists...
Duh.
I go to Church with my family, and we all have a great time celebrating with other Christians.
We Christians celebrate Christmas and we have a great time.
Could you possibly be anymore vague ? Like Raithere says, you're totally missing the point or else you're simply being deceptive. What is it you're trying to hide ? I want to know what it is you do, aside from attending your local services, to "celebrate Christmas" and "have a great time". Answer the questions.
You're missing the point here.
Thanks. I was beginning to think about hitting him over the head with a 2x4.
Kizlevru
Only the atheist ones... No, not everyone, just atheists...
Duh.
I go to Church with my family, and we all have a great time celebrating with other Christians.
We Christians celebrate Christmas and we have a great time.
Could you possibly be anymore vague ? Like Raithere says, you're totally missing the point or else you're simply being deceptive. What is it you're trying to hide ? I want to know what it is you do, aside from attending your local services, to "celebrate Christmas" and "have a great time". Answer the questions.
Kiz,
Its pretty simple. I celebrate halloween. Why? Its fun. I don't really believe in witchcraft, demons, etc. But I don't 'protest' halloween. I have fun with it and enjoy myself.
See the correlation?
BTW, you never answered my question: do you participate in halloween activities?
Its pretty simple. I celebrate halloween. Why? Its fun. I don't really believe in witchcraft, demons, etc. But I don't 'protest' halloween. I have fun with it and enjoy myself.
See the correlation?
BTW, you never answered my question: do you participate in halloween activities?
Well, it's hard to say. There's really very little evidence that Jesus existed as described in the Bible, much less a record of his birth date but basically; yes.
Actually, an atheist may well believe that Jesus existed... just not that he's the son of God. But you're argument here is very weak. People believe all manner of untrue propositions. BTW, do you realize your argument can be used to validate all other religions?
We don't (generally speaking).
Did you even read my last post? The better question is, "Why do you (and George W.) practice pagan traditions?
~Raithere
Kizlevru
Raithere summed it up well.
If you celebrate chrismas, you are indeed indulging in non-christian activities which have been adopted by christianity. It's very simple really.
PS: And yes, several of us have given you some history on the celebration.
Raithere summed it up well.
If you celebrate chrismas, you are indeed indulging in non-christian activities which have been adopted by christianity. It's very simple really.
PS: And yes, several of us have given you some history on the celebration.
Kizlevru
Thankyou for the gracious apology
However, I have to say that the points made by the others are essentially no different from my own.
Let me try to explain my feeling here.
Today is All Saints Day. For Christians this is a day to remember those who have passed away, and yet many athiests/agnostics use this day to pay a special tribute to their loved ones who have died. Would you describe these as "hypocrites"?
On Sunday my Dad will be holding an All Saints service in church, non-believers will attend, not to praise God, but as a tribute to those they love who are no longer with us. Would you describe them as "hypocrites"?
For me Christmas is summed up in the term "Peace On Earth, Goodwill To All Men", (obviously I include all women before I get flamed by any feminists). The mix of religious and secular aspects is a wonderful opportunity for people to join together and share regardless of their beliefs. I am pleased that I am sent a card with a picture of the Baby Jesus on it from someone who is special to me and I do not begrudge them kissing me under the mistletoe.
I hope you have a good Christmas Kizlevru.
Thankyou for the gracious apology
However, I have to say that the points made by the others are essentially no different from my own.
Let me try to explain my feeling here.
Today is All Saints Day. For Christians this is a day to remember those who have passed away, and yet many athiests/agnostics use this day to pay a special tribute to their loved ones who have died. Would you describe these as "hypocrites"?
On Sunday my Dad will be holding an All Saints service in church, non-believers will attend, not to praise God, but as a tribute to those they love who are no longer with us. Would you describe them as "hypocrites"?
For me Christmas is summed up in the term "Peace On Earth, Goodwill To All Men", (obviously I include all women before I get flamed by any feminists). The mix of religious and secular aspects is a wonderful opportunity for people to join together and share regardless of their beliefs. I am pleased that I am sent a card with a picture of the Baby Jesus on it from someone who is special to me and I do not begrudge them kissing me under the mistletoe.
I hope you have a good Christmas Kizlevru.
Originally posted by Kizlevru
I have learned from your replies that the attitude of an atheist is the same as a spoilt brat.
The remark was aimed at Q and Adam
Typical, resorts to name calling when left with no leg to stand.
Especially Q, that guy is going to give athiests a very bad name.
The sword of reason is indeed mighty and should be feared, especially by those who are content to live a life of fantasy.
And as far as this thread is concerned, it is pointless and should be locked since its purpose is obviously that of troll bait.
I have learned from your replies that the attitude of an atheist is the same as a spoilt brat.
The remark was aimed at Q and Adam
Typical, resorts to name calling when left with no leg to stand.
Especially Q, that guy is going to give athiests a very bad name.
The sword of reason is indeed mighty and should be feared, especially by those who are content to live a life of fantasy.
And as far as this thread is concerned, it is pointless and should be locked since its purpose is obviously that of troll bait.
Grazzhoppa said:
Kizlevru said:
B- I don't deny Christ I just don't accept him in the same light as you
C- How can you deny what you know for a fact is happening once a year
Women
Ethnic Minorities
Athiest
Etc
Zoiks, all that from one post, not bad going Kiz
Well, this was fun, must do it again sometime, toodles
Not here, I'm more like 'Ah crap, not again'
Kizlevru said:
I have not said that he did not exsist. I just question whether he is the savior of mankind
A- I don't celebrate it
B- I don't deny Christ I just don't accept him in the same light as you
C- How can you deny what you know for a fact is happening once a year
So, here's the list of people not allowed to vote because of what they are:
Women
Ethnic Minorities
Athiest
Etc
Zoiks, all that from one post, not bad going Kiz
Mustn't be a very bright light
What the hell do you wear, a red arm band with a Swaztika on it?
And I have learnt that your attitude is similar to that of an autistic child. Are you jealous that we made a decision on our own?
May I ask why? What's so wrong in sticking up for what you believe in?
We will if you will
Why the hell should he. He has as much right to speak his mind as you do
Just think of it as non-soldiers on Remberance Sunday
You're lucky non of them have shown up
There is no such thing as a wrong belief
Well, this was fun, must do it again sometime, toodles