Christians - Your Testimonies Please

[Katazia]

C20,

I had no faith, no intention of having faith and yet I was healed. How could I make up a full 'healing' ???

And a placebo pill can do the same thing – it is all entirely in your mind. You healed yourself. There was and is no external supernatural force only environment conditions and pressure from others, and your internal desire for some form of change – an epiphany if you like.

But also realize that there is nothing magical about faith, it is simply the epitome of illogical thought. It has no value and certainly should not be admired or encouraged.

I can only speak of what I see and hear.

I understand, in which case have you seen or heard God? You have only been told about him and have been conditioned to interpret your feelings as if they have a supernatural cause, but there is no basis for that. God is merely a concept with no basis in reality. I understand that your feelings and experience may well be real but you have no basis to attribute the cause to anything other than your mind and your emotional state and the indoctrination you have received. The effects are no different to those from a placebo.

I would say this though - What invokes the emotion in you Kat that says
“ ...usual style of such sickening testimonies ”
“ If all you want to do is share sickening religious fantasies... ”

I can understand you sitting there with your unbelief, writing it off as 'same ol same ol stories' but why would you then feel compelled to spit venom into a thread. Are the quotes above not melodramatic?

Would a polite criticism have evoked the same degree of debate? But I have seen so many make the same mistake especially at Billy Graham style rallies where so many would ‘come on down’ and give their testimonies, and then later see their lives destroyed with the confusion. The process is simply sickening and I feel powerless to prevent such a disease from spreading further. And no I never went forward in any of those rallies; my path through Christianity was quite different, but many of my friends did and when I see them now it is a subject that is to be carefully avoided – they were hurt very deeply.

Kat

 

[Katazia]

DeeCee,

Brilliant.

Kat

 

[DoctorNO]

Do you realize that a strong belief in Disney’s Mickey Mouse who also espouses those values would be of equal or superior value to Christianity?

I honestly doubt it.

My point is that religion is not needed and we achieve the same result through rational morality rather than illogical superstitions.

Athiesm & Agnosticism isnt for everybody. Many people still need religion. Whether true or false, religion serves to remove or inhibit fear & insecurity about human mortality.

We should be happy for people who became better individuals because of religion. I hate Islam but Im still happy for a few people I know who became better individuals because of their faith in Allah.

I am fond of Christianity so I am even happier for c20.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Would a polite criticism have evoked the same degree of debate?

I'll guess we will never know I have nothing to debate. Just wanted to share a story.

 

[Katazia]

C20,

…this thread was intended to allow poeple of all different faiths to gain some insight into another's and particulary why that person came to their faith. It was not intended to be any sort of preaching. i even state that i 'do not preach'.

Giving Christian style testimonies is proselytizing and preaching. It is an attempt to convince others that your intense experience attributed to an alleged supernatural is a factual truth and hence hope that others will be convinced and convert to your beliefs.

It has limited if any effect on anyone analytical and skeptical but within a group of like minded people it acts as a support mechanism and encourages and strengthens their already irrational conclusions. If that wasn’t your intention then it could only have been to placate your ego, e.g. “look what I have found, aren’t I good”, etc. otherwise, had your experience been a truly personal experience with your imaginary friend then you would have stayed silent.

This could have been a very peaceful thread that allowed peoplle to ask questions about saome 'passive' text if they so wish.

Then you need a pro-religion forum and not sciforums.

The title of the thread was pretty explicit therefore if people dont want to be mass evangelised then they are probably advised to 'skip over' a thread that has something about Christians in it.

I fully realize your attempt to illegally exclude criticism and others.

Although as i state, I am not trying to convert anybody, I just wanted to post my story up on the net and give others the chance to read and discuss if they so wish.

That’s fine and isn’t that what I have done? It was just that my response was negative and not supportive. What you really expected was Christian support group.

Kat did not want to discuss, instead she wanted to diminish my testimony in a way that made me out to be a weak person in my actions / experiences and subsequent belief system.

Almost, but I didn’t intend to be personal. I see you as an unprepared victim and there have been many millions like you. Christians have had many centuries to perfect their indoctrination and propaganda techniques and you were extremely vulnerable and quite unprepared.

'I was not delusional but its a good question Kat thank you, I am sure others may think that initially,

The only way you can show that you are not deluded is to demonstrate factual evidence for your imaginary friend and you can’t do that – so what is the basis of your claim that you are not deluded? How do you distinguish between a supernatural cause and the placebo effect?

To rant about what you personally find 'sickening' when no-one is preaching to you is a manifestation of 'ego' and does not really fit into the spirit of the thread.

the spirit of the thread was to exclude criticism that you almost certainly do not want to hear.

If you dont want to read about someones experieces just dont read. it really is as simple as that.

But I do want to read about such experiences so I can criticize them. What was your point?

Kat

 

[Katazia]

C20,

I'll guess we will never know I have nothing to debate. Just wanted to share a story.

Aye, OK – take care kiddo.

Kat

 

[c20H25N3o]

Giving Christian style testimonies is proselytizing and preaching. It is an attempt to convince others that your intense experience attributed to an alleged supernatural is a factual truth and hence hope that others will be convinced and convert to your beliefs.

It was an article of interest. Its intention was to provide a bit of an introduction about myself and my standpoint in other threads that I contribute to. Since the Forum is called Religion, it seemed an entirely appropriate place to place it.



It has limited if any effect on anyone analytical and skeptical but within a group of like minded people it acts as a support mechanism and encourages and strengthens their already irrational conclusions. If that wasn’t your intention then it could only have been to placate your ego, e.g. “look what I have found, aren’t I good”, etc. otherwise, had your experience been a truly personal experience with your imaginary friend then you would have stayed silent.

Your belief is that it is an irrational conclusion. I am happy to disagree politely with you on that matter.

Then you need a pro-religion forum and not sciforums.

Err... this Forum is called Religion? If my post was innapropriate please use the 'Report Post' link at the top of the thread.

I fully realize your attempt to illegally exclude criticism and others.

I have always said its an open thread.

That’s fine and isn’t that what I have done? It was just that my response was negative and not supportive. What you really expected was Christian support group.

Nope I expected my story to provoke interest. I am happy for people to question any element of it but please do it politely and constructively.

Almost, but I didn’t intend to be personal. I see you as an unprepared victim and there have been many millions like you. Christians have had many centuries to perfect their indoctrination and propaganda techniques and you were extremely vulnerable and quite unprepared.

Thank you for your patronisation.

The only way you can show that you are not deluded is to demonstrate factual evidence for your imaginary friend and you can’t do that – so what is the basis of your claim that you are not deluded? How do you distinguish between a supernatural cause and the placebo effect?

It is called 'faith' - I am sure you know what this means.

the spirit of the thread was to exclude criticism that you almost certainly do not want to hear.

Supposition. Criticism should be constructive. I see nothing constructive in what you have said.

But I do want to read about such experiences so I can criticize them. What was your point?

I think you criticise them because Christianity and Religion in general hurt you or at least your friends emotionally. Perhaps you are bitter that it didnt work out for you and this is why you feel you must negatively criticise somebody who it did work out for. You would be better advised to explain why Christianity or Religion became bad for you. I would then be in a position to understand where you are coming from

 

[c20H25N3o]

DeeCee,

Brilliant.

Kat

Are you happy now that YOU have a supporter???

Irony

 

[Enigma'07]

C20,I have a question for you. I don't mean to critisize, I was just wondering. If there are thousands of religions in the world, how do you know for certain that you found the right one because obviously they all can't be right.

 

[c20H25N3o]

C20,I have a question for you. I don't mean to critisize, I was just wondering. If there are thousands of religions in the world, how do you know for certain that you found the right one because obviously they all can't be right.

Hi,

Thank you for asking politely

Err ... The truth is I dont know very much about 'religion' . I proved this when I took Proud Muslims Islam test. I certainly knew nothing of Christianity before the experience described at the top of this thread.
In my original post I said that the 'books dissapeared' meaning that I stopped reading the bible and other such christian texts. The reason for this is because they were not simplistic enough for me. The bible is rather confusing in places and I am a fairly 'simple' individual. I know that in my life I sense that the greatest 'power' in the Universe is Love. We can have all the religous dogma in the world but without love we have nothing. Everything Jesus did he quite clearly did in the name of Love with His sacrifice being the greatest love of all. When I heard the voice telling me that 'I was being washed in blood' and I felt a healing surge rush through me, I could not deny what I had heard and felt. I had no knowledge of the 'Blood of Christ' being anything significant so this kind of discounts the 'placebo' effect which has been mentioned as a probable cause of my experience.
I am happier since that day than before that day therefore there is no need for me to seek alternate answers from alternate religions.

Peace

c20

 

[Enigma'07]

C20, again I honestly don't mean to critisize in a negative way, I just have another question. If you don't trust the Bible, then how do you know what you know about God/Jesus?

 

[c20H25N3o]

C20, again I honestly don't mean to critisize in a negative way, I just have another question. If you don't trust the Bible, then how do you know what you know about God/Jesus?

You are not being negative. You are being polite and inquisitive

Its not that I dont trust the bible, I just dont understand some of the long 'difficult to read passages'. The gospels are fairly simplistic tho. These I understand. I am particulary fond of the parables because they are clever ways of explaining things to simple heads like me

Peace

c20

 

[Katazia]

DoctorNo,

I honestly doubt it.

What? You don’t believe in Mickey Mouse, shame on you – but you must have faith. 

Athiesm & Agnosticism isnt for everybody. Many people still need religion. Whether true or false, religion serves to remove or inhibit fear & insecurity about human mortality.

Yes, agreed. But the problem is the large numbers that flock to religion because they cannot think for themselves. The only solution here is better education but that will take a while. I can’t see that the human race is likely to survive for long when the leaders and the majority of people run the world based on fantasies.

We should be happy for people who became better individuals because of religion.

I disagree; we should be happy for people who realize for themselves the difference between right and wrong and who do not depend on ancient outdated ideas based on primitive superstitions. You are arguing that the ends justify the means and that is extremely risky. Your idea condemns so many to just being mindless puppets and that is a bad sign for the future of the human race.

I would like to see an end to war and I don’t see that happening all the time people believe in an afterlife. I would also like to see greater tolerance for other lifestyles instead of the bigotry and discrimination we see practiced by the major religions.

No, any acceptance of religion based on its good aspects only ignores and implicitly condones its darker side.

I hate Islam but Im still happy for a few people I know who became better individuals because of their faith in Allah.

It is a goal of Islam to dominate the world. Your pacifism may have long term disastrous consequences.

Kat

 

[Enigma'07]

C20, If you believe in God, then wouldn't you also have to trust that if the Bible truly is his word (or his love letter to humans as I've heard some people say), that every thing in it is important, even if it doesn't seem so?

 

[top mosker]

I was a christian.

Drugs saved me.

They helped me realize religions always eventually evolve into a sick form of control.
Fuck 'em. Get high(er) :m:

 

[c20H25N3o]

I was a christian.

Drugs saved me.

They helped me realize religions always eventually evolve into a sick form of control.
Fuck 'em. Get high(er) :m:

From what I understand, I think Jesus would have agreed with you. He certainly didnt approve of the Pharisees religuos control and blatant hypocrisy. He called them a brood of vipers!

I think it is a shame that stuff that is supposed to be sacred like 'eternal life' and 'peace' and 'love' and 'God' have become synonymous with the Pharisean branch of religion i.e. control freaks being hypocrites and using there own brand of religous dogma to bully people to serve their own greedy ends.

In fact all things 'sacred' are so evidently persecuted in the world that it becomes hard to ignore. Jesus often exposed the hypocrites who used religion to their own bloody end. The real evil was religuous types posing as 'God' and assuming His Authority.

PEace

c20 :m:

 

[Enigma'07]

C20, how do you tell the differance between the hypocrites and the honest people?

 

[Katazia]

C20,

I thought you didn’t want to debate.

Since the Forum is called Religion, it seemed an entirely appropriate place to place it.

I totally agree and it provided me an ideal opportunity to air my views on the issue. Thanks.

Your belief is that it is an irrational conclusion. I am happy to disagree politely with you on that matter.

Why would you disagree? That religious belief is irrational is factual. If religion was logical you would need empirical evidence and you have none, that is why faith is stressed (the belief in something without evidence). You cannot form a rational and logical argument without a factual basis.

Err... this Forum is called Religion? If my post was innapropriate please use the 'Report Post' link at the top of the thread.

Religion doesn’t imply pro-religion views only, both sides are implied.

I expected my story to provoke interest. I am happy for people to question any element of it but please do it politely and constructively.

It did provoke my interest, so you succeeded. I chose to be aggressive because it more accurately reflected my observations. And being destructive is a valid debating technique, and I did not have any objective or see a need to be helpful.

Thank you for your patronisation.

You are quite welcome but I believe my statements were factually accurate and not patronizing.

It is called 'faith' - I am sure you know what this means.

Yes I explained it in another post in this thread – it is the epitome of illogical thought and quite valueless.

So what you are saying is that you have no rational means to demonstrate that your religious conclusions are anything other than delusion, right?

Supposition. Criticism should be constructive. I see nothing constructive in what you have said.

Criticism can take both forms. I wasn’t trying to be constructive; that you expect something else is your problem not mine.

I think you criticize them because Christianity and Religion in general hurt you or at least your friends emotionally.

Well no, you are fishing and guessing here. I have never been hurt directly by religion but I do feel sorry for my friends that were hurt. But these are not the primary reasons why I criticize religion.

Perhaps you are bitter that it didnt work out for you

There was no bitterness at all, just an eventual reasoned conclusion and then total rejection. Quite a pleasant and enlightening experience really.

…and this is why you feel you must negatively criticise somebody who it did work out for.

LOL dream on.

You would be better advised to explain why Christianity or Religion became bad for you. I would then be in a position to understand where you are coming from.

There are some 40+ years of analysis, observation, and investigation to consider. The final conclusion is very simple, theism has no factual basis - gods are no more than a human generated concept – pure fantasy - pure fiction. And every time I debate and discuss claims like yours the result is always the same – you cannot show anything of any substance to dispute my conclusions – you have absolutely nothing that demonstrates a supernatural source.

Does that help?

Kat

 

[Neildo]

It's called R-E-S-P-E-C-T

Nonsense, what you are requesting is surrender or a truce, and I don’t see that religionists deserve any such leeway.

Surrender or truce? No, trust me, I love to debate with the best of them. Everything you've said in this thread, I've said to Christians in other threads. The difference though is that there's a time and a place to bring up those thoughts and hatred and this doesn't seem like that thread. Rather than be objective about his post, you just unload the nasty comments.

I thought you didn’t want to debate.

I doubt he has a problem with debating. Heck, my posts aren't to say no to debating in this thread either. It's the WAY you just automatically LASHED OUT, and weren't debating, that was the problem and is why I posted what I posted. Go take a look at your first couple posts in this thread, it's insulting and isn't trying to debate but rather pick a fight. Here, let me quote you:

Nice exaggeration of how bad you were

and then the required exaggeration of a miraculous conversion

which is the usual style of such sickening testimonies

now of course you are simply living under a delusion that something is protecting you

A good con and you’ve been well and truly conned, and mainly by your own actions.

If all you want to do is share sickening religious fantasies

Rather than try and have a discussion or debate, you just flat out call the initial poster a liar and an exaggerator. Then you call his story sickening and that he's delusional. And then again, call all people who share stories, sickening religious fantasies again. I mean what kind of bullshit is that? Go ahead and debate, I'll back you 100%, but like I said earlier, don't be an ass about it. Surely you should understand the difference.

- N

 

[c20H25N3o]

C20, how do you tell the differance between the hypocrites and the honest people?

That is a good question, Ill will get around to the other shortly

Well a hypocrite by definition is someone who preaches one way and lives another, well certainly in this context anyway.
I guess honest people just speak from the heart and live that way.
I can tell an honest person from a false person by their actions, I guess that is the same for everybody.

Peace

c20 :m: