christians its not your fault

[ghost7584]

Chris
No, that is not true. Rational thought is based on logic, which in turn is founded on evidence and facts. All religious beliefs lack credible evidence and thus all religion is irrational. This is not opinion but simple conformity to definition.[/QUOTE]

Over 500 people saw Jesus after he rose from the dead.
The apostle Paul heard Jesus speak to him from a bright light in the sky (UFO).

I became a Christian because God gave me evidence. Jesus appeared to me in a night vision and paraphrased scripture to me.

You just don't want to believe the evidence.

You're searching for everlasting life. You will only find it by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour, and repenting of sin.
Read the King James version New Testament and ask God in prayer to show you what it means. That will show you the way to eternal life.

The Bible tends to indicate this. Everytime you reject God's Word, which is the New Testament, then you will become further blinded and further turned away from God's truth. Everytime you accept God's Word, you will be moved closer to God's truth and more of it will be revealed to you.

Why would God reveal Himself to me and not to you???? I just told you why.


Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matthew 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

You will bow the knee. You will face Jesus on the judgement day to give account. You will be judged according to the King James version New Testament.

 

[duendy]

and i suggest, we cant live by 'hard logic' alone. there is more to us than just that capacity. Hence the beliefs which proliferate, AND experiences considered by the 'hard logic' people to be anecdotal or a sign of 'mental illness.

so USe you logic to see that something is wanting out. an energy is being suppressed and is wanting out.

The next thing, as i see it, is to research what Is outing. is it divisive. is it anti-Nature, ant--body. does it conceptually separate oppoistes thus creating conflict inside and out. THAT

dont demonize or dismiss the FEELING

 

[Joey Profit]

Joey,

Such Christian propagandist humor might work well in a Christian fellowship meet, but otherwise it reveals just another sheep.

Cris,

What the hell are you talking about? I was just implying that Heretic's original post is obvious flame-bait.

Next time I'll try not to be so subtle.

 

[water]

Doubtful. Such a self label belies the simpler explanation – confusion – lack of self understanding.
/.../
Yup – confusion. Deliberately choosing to believe as true something that is only an imaginative baseless concept reveals an inability to think clearly

Ad hominem: Cris, you have no sense of humor -- which is typical for those who "think clearly".

No, that is not true. Rational thought is based on logic, which in turn is founded on evidence and facts.

A lovely definition, but impossible to do in the real world. What evidence and facts actually are ... is very hard to determine, as they depend on the method they were gathered with, and this method depends on a certain logic and rational thought ... so it's all nice and circular.

Yet you feel confident enough to claim that you know that a god is behind it all despite the absence of any credible basis. That’s either simple irrationality or just plain confusion.

No, not at all. It just shows that Cole is operating with a vastly different understanding of what God is that you.


* * *

Does that seem logical to you?

That's right!

 

[§outh§tar]

Southstar,

Not sure where you are leading; perhaps you didn’t quite understand what I meant. I’d like to try again.

You suggested that what we deem as rational is a subjective choice and I disagreed.

To be rational is to exercise logical reasoning. Logic is an objective discipline. In logic - through inferences and deductions based on facts and evidence we can draw conclusions that show the truth or fallacy of some assertion. In the context of theism I use the term “irrational” to indicate false logic, i.e. conclusions that are not based on facts/evidence. Hence such conclusions are inherently irrational according to the definitions of logic.

I don’t see this as controversial and I didn’t mean to imply anything beyond this simple fact.

I can't believe you are saying there is something objective!

So, tell me, who determines what is and isn't false logic?

You say "conformity to definition". Whose definition?

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=44126

 

[sdotter123]

Ghost, holy shit, I've been dying to find someone like you here! What religion are you (if I may ask)?

Over 500 people saw Jesus after he rose from the dead.
The apostle Paul heard Jesus speak to him from a bright light in the sky (UFO).

Maybe, maybe not.

I became a Christian because God gave me evidence. Jesus appeared to me in a night vision and paraphrased scripture to me.

You are one lucky bastard! I've wanted him to do that for a long time, and I didn't get any sign! I prayed several times for God to just come down and show me, because it seemed like nothing else would get me to believe in him unless I see him for myself. NOTHING HAPPENED! Made me feel like there's just nothing out there, because I don't understand why God wouldn't want me to know for sure he's there.

You just don't want to believe the evidence.

Personally, I have yet to see any. What some see as evidence, others see as nonsense (i.e. some think that certain things are signs of God, others see them as just things that happen, and see no reason to believe it's God). I tried to say this in my last post, it just didn't get out right.

The Bible tends to indicate this. Everytime you reject God's Word, which is the New Testament, then you will become further blinded and further turned away from God's truth. Everytime you accept God's Word, you will be moved closer to God's truth and more of it will be revealed to you.

Why would God reveal Himself to me and not to you???? I just told you why.

The way I see it, the people who reject God's word, etc., are the ones who NEED him to reveal himself to them more! Why in the world would God, the all knowing one, not show himself to people who want him to but can't accept his word (as much as they try to) because it just sounds so impossible. (I'm talking about me, here.)

You will bow the knee. You will face Jesus on the judgement day to give account. You will be judged according to the King James version New Testament.

You make it sound like a bad thing, but I would think being face to face with Jesus would be a good thing, because he is so forgiving! That's why I don't get why we go to hell if he died on the cross for our sins. Don't some of the stories in the bible (and really, just think about this from different angles) sound like they are just stories made up by (superstitious) people? Adam and Eve (and the snake, which is a typical animal to use because people always seem to see them as evil, you know?), the guy in the whale's stomach (I'm sorry, I just can't remember the name right now, and I don't feel like looking it up), and the whole heaven and hell, good vs evil, the devil, it just sounds like stories to scare people into being good. I don't know, I'm sure you'll disagree because you believe, but really, doesn't it, just a little, sound made up by people?

 

[Cris]

Ghost,

Over 500 people saw Jesus after he rose from the dead.

And you have their testimonies on videotape right? Not only do we not have any such evidence that he rose we have yet to find any evidence that he ever existed.

The apostle Paul heard Jesus speak to him from a bright light in the sky (UFO).

So says the myth.

I became a Christian because God gave me evidence. Jesus appeared to me in a night vision and paraphrased scripture to me.

And how can we tell if this is real or just your imagination? Imagination is credible, yet a supernatural event has no proof or basis or precedent. So you’ll need something stronger than just your assertion to convince anyone else.

You just don't want to believe the evidence.

I’m still waiting to see credible evidence first.

You're searching for everlasting life. You will only find it by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour, and repenting of sin.

So says one fundamentalist branch of Christianity – yet cannot demonstrate one iota of truth or even that such a thing could be true. It’s pure fantasy.

Read the King James version New Testament and ask God in prayer to show you what it means. That will show you the way to eternal life.

Having tried that for several years some 30 years ago and with enormous sincerity, tears, and emotion, I came to realize that such an approach is total gibberish.

Everytime you reject God's Word, which is the New Testament, then you will become further blinded and further turned away from God's truth.

Yet I found decades of objective study of the NT reveal it to be pure mythology and worthless as anything else.

Everytime you accept God's Word, you will be moved closer to God's truth and more of it will be revealed to you.

Didn’t work me. This approach seems only valid for the gullible and those unable to think for themselves.

Why would God reveal Himself to me and not to you???? I just told you why.

He is just a fantasy so your claim is nonsense it’s just that you are gullible and I am not.

As for all your bible quotes: Good examples of Christian propaganda but otherwise gibberish.

You will bow the knee. You will face Jesus on the judgement day to give account. You will be judged according to the King James version New Testament.

Dream on kiddo, it’s your fantasy not mine. I prefer the RSV version BTW.

 

[Cris]

Duendy,

and i suggest, we cant live by 'hard logic' alone.

What is hard logic as opposed to logic?

The alternative to thinking logically is to be illogical, why would you choose such a dumb approach to life?

there is more to us than just that capacity.

Yes agreed people often choose to be dumb.

Hence the beliefs which proliferate,

A belief can have a factual basis or a fantasy basis. Why choose to believe fantasies as if they are true? I see no value in that.

AND experiences considered by the 'hard logic' people to be anecdotal or a sign of 'mental illness.

Or simply illogical and largely worthless if one is interested in discovering truth.

so USe you logic to see that something is wanting out. an energy is being suppressed and is wanting out.

The next thing, as i see it, is to research what Is outing. is it divisive. is it anti-Nature, ant--body. does it conceptually separate oppoistes thus creating conflict inside and out. THAT

Have no idea what any of that meant. It reads as gibberish.

dont demonize or dismiss the FEELING

It is perfectly logical to express feelings and emotions; these are part of the human experience. But it is illogical to assert that something is true without some factual basis.

 

[Cris]

Joey,

What the hell are you talking about? I was just implying that Heretic's original post is obvious flame-bait.

Next time I'll try not to be so subtle.

Very wise. I’ve simply seen too many fundies here who would have made such statements as serious. I had no way to tell you weren’t being serious. Pity since I thought my statement was pretty neat.

Welcome to sciforums BTW.

 

[Cris]

Water,

Cris, you have no sense of humor -- which is typical for those who "think clearly".

Thankyou - I’ll take that as a compliment. I assume you do have a sense of humor and hence cannot think clearly, is that right?

A lovely definition, but impossible to do in the real world.

Bullshit – it is the basis of science, which is phenomenally successful.

What evidence and facts actually are ... is very hard to determine, as they depend on the method they were gathered with, and this method depends on a certain logic and rational thought ... so it's all nice and circular.

Again, bullshit. Can you demonstrate a superior technique to discovering truth?

No, not at all. It just shows that Cole is operating with a vastly different understanding of what God is that you.

And hence you mean outside of logic then – something illogical, right?

 

[Cris]

Southstar,

I can't believe you are saying there is something objective!

So, tell me, who determines what is and isn't false logic?

You can do this for yourself. It requires an understanding of logical reasoning. Here is a good starter website for you - http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

 

[qwerasdfzxcv]

What is it that drives you to make people not believe in god Cris?

 

[sdotter123]

Cris,

Read the King James version New Testament and ask God in prayer to show you what it means. That will show you the way to eternal life.

Having tried that for several years some 30 years ago and with enormous sincerity, tears, and emotion, I came to realize that such an approach is total gibberish.

Been there, done that (more or less). Agreed.

 

[Cris]

Hi sdotter,

Welcome to the club,

 

[qwerasdfzxcv]

Cris???? Why did you ignore my question? What is it that drives you to take people away from their faith?

 

[Cris]

qweras,

A keyboard userid huh?

What is it that drives you to make people not believe in god Cris?

It's in my best interest, and will likely improve my chance of long-term survival, if more people work towards ensuring human happiness, health and longevity through the application of scientific research than believe in fantasies of eternal paradise by dying.

Religions through their irrational and unfounded promises of eternal life attempt to convince the unwary that death is merely a gateway to a better life rather than the more obvious fact that death means permanent non-existence. I see this widespread deceit as possibly the greatest evil that mankind has had to face.

 

[Cris]

qweras,

Cris???? Why did you ignore my question?

This isn't a chat room. Do not expect instant responses. Many of us go days without checking these forums.

 

[qwerasdfzxcv]

Ok thanks for clearing me up on why you do. I was just curious, but Cris the best thing for some people is religion. Some people need religion because they're insecure and need something to motivate them to do good. I'm not saying that I am an atheist. I believe in god because of the unlikely chances of evolution, and I believe because of spirits. I fully understand if you don't believe in spirits because you might have not experienced what I have, and when I expereniced those crazy days i was not alone. I was with friends who witnessed the exact same thing. It was completely random. So there wasnt the effect of stories to put images in our mind, but i do believe alot of the times when people believe they have experienced something with spirits is just their own mind playing tricks on them. So don't get me wrong because alot of peoples stories are just boohonkey. Sorry about being impatient.

 

[cole grey]

And hence you mean outside of logic then – something illogical, right?

Actually, you are the one who is misusing the term "logic". I remember laughing when I went to a friend's logic class (he teaches philosophy), and the people in the class couldn't get it through their heads that a statement can be completely untrue, but can be considered logical if the "math" of the statement works out.
E.g. -
P1 All christians eat babies
P2 All americans are christians
C1 All americans eat babies
Logical, isn't it?

I think this is what duendy meant by "hard logic".

You can say that there are premises made by believers which you think are inherently impossible, and I'll agree that there are many people who think in a way which is illogical, theist and atheist as well.
But to say that theistic belief is illogical is... illogical.

Your premise in making this statement is that they have correct information and are putting it together in a way which is illogical.

What if they (or you) have mistaken information? They (or you), may be "wrong", but not necessarily illogical.

 

[water]

What is it that drives you to make people not believe in god Cris?

Cris is an angry, lonely, disappointed closet believer.
Now, since he's been that for so long, it has become to define his personality, so that he isn't much aware of his anger and all that anymore.