Christians break the Golden Rule when accepting Jesus as savior.

Greatest I am

Greatest I am

Valued Senior Member
Christians break the Golden Rule when accepting Jesus as savior.

Jesus indicated that doing unto others as we would want done to us was a commandment.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, goes against the Golden Rule and Jesus’ commandment.

None of us would want to be punished for someone else’s sin, yet Christians ignore Jesus’ commandment and eagerly consent to let Jesus suffer for the sins they have done so that they might escape their just punishment.
From what Jesus said, Christians are showing that they are not fit for heaven as they do not follow Jesus’ commandment and thus do evil.

Should Christians step up and make themselves fit for heaven by rejecting substitutionary atonement?

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
None of us would want to be punished for someone else’s sin, yet Christians ignore Jesus’ commandment and eagerly consent to let Jesus suffer for the sins they have done so that they might escape their just punishment.
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Nothing you (or anyone) can do will prevent the suffering of Jesus. So your point is moot.
 
Morally, the ones who use the atonement of jesus's having suffered for their sins and keep on sinning indicate what they are truly about. They are false and users. Well, they are bad people and there are plenty of them. There are certainly people who use and abuse religion and even christ or god if they can get away with it.

But those who try to live a christlike example is different than those who use religion or ethics like a doormat. Especially abusing the 'forgiveness' angle. They are not really sorry for shit. Just like with any organization or idea, it will be infiltrated, appropriated and twisted by decievers and evil as well as rationalizing it.

People can call themselves anything. Two people can call or even believe themselves christian but can have differing ethics and motivation.

Hypothetically, if there was to be a real accounting, i bet it would be a mixture of atheists, agnostics and the religious who would qualify to be truly christlike (enter heaven), not just the religious as some believe. Furthermore, probably most of the religious would be out. Even the bible says that many will claim to know god (christian, islam or whatever) but it will respond that i never knew you as in they were not real christians, ethical, true or christlike. Aka phonies, deceivers, manipulators, or the like 'pharisees.'
 
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birch said:
Morally, the ones who use the atonement of jesus's having suffered for their sins and keep on sinning indicate what they are truly about.
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The flaw here (and I only quote you because you highlight the flaw in OP's post), is that it is directed at the nebulous, shifting group of 'they'.

Who are these 'they's the OP speaks of? All Christians?

If I said internet forum posters are bad because they lie through their teeth, could we have a meaningful discussion about it? Do we even agree that this is a thing? Do we all have the same idea of who is in and who is nit in this pseudo-category If so, who is guilty? Can we examine any exemplars?

Really, all we're arguing here is or own, undefined preconceptions of who we suppose, without defensibility, fits into such a contrived bucket.
 
Greatest I am said:
None of us would want to be punished for someone else’s sin, yet Christians ignore Jesus’ commandment and eagerly consent to let Jesus suffer for the sins they have done so that they might escape their just punishment.
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Two points

  1. As I understand JC was a volunteer but even so his action would yes require acceptance by the sinner. If you don't accept you have to atone for your own sins.
  2. Greatest I am said:
    Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, goes against the Golden Rule and Jesus’ commandment.
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    BUT it appears this is condoned and actioned by the boss
    Numbers 14:18 ESV
    ‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’

    Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV
    You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me
Check the link for other Bible sayings about the sins of the father

https://www.openbible.info/topics/sins_of_the_father

Humpty and Poe speak from the high ground
Well from the top of a wall

;)
 
DaveC426913 said:
Yes, they do. They are human.

I would not want to be judged by such an absolute criterion. I'll bet you wouldn't either.

Why pick on them?
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I pick on no one.

I am just showing those that do want to follow Jesus' commands, that they are failing to do so by promoting something immoral and unjust.

If they do not want to do the right thing, then that is their choice.

Regards
DL
 
Michael 345 said:
Two points

  1. As I understand JC was a volunteer but even so his action would yes require acceptance by the sinner. If you don't accept you have to atone for your own sins.
  2. BUT it appears this is condoned and actioned by the boss
    Numbers 14:18 ESV
    ‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’

    Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV
    You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me
Check the link for other Bible sayings about the sins of the father

https://www.openbible.info/topics/sins_of_the_father

Humpty and Poe speak from the high ground
Well from the top of a wall

;)
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To your first point.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

That is not volunteering and if you read scriptures, you will know that Jesus often says that he is doing his fathers will and not his own.

Your second point.

The following quotes are why I call what God did murder, if he actually needs a blood sacrifice. As you can see, a sacrifice was not required.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

As you can see, especially those last two quotes, all are saved without a sacrifice.

Psa 49 7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Now we can thump the contradictory bible at each other or chat on the morality of substitutionary atonement.

Your choice.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Now we can thump the contradictory bible at each other or chat on the morality of substitutionary atonement.
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Not even a close choice

I am sure we could play Ping Pong with bible quotes

It seems you do not wish to do so

Neither do I

As to a chat on the

morality of substitutionary atonement

I'll give that miss also

If someone wants to
  • die for my sins
  • go to hell instead of me or here on Earth
  • pay my parking ticket
  • go to jail for the crimes I did
they are most welcome to do so

So you see nothing to chat about

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
Not even a close choice

I am sure we could play Ping Pong with bible quotes

It seems you do not wish to do so

Neither do I

As to a chat on the

morality of substitutionary atonement

I'll give that miss also

If someone wants to
  • die for my sins
  • go to hell instead of me or here on Earth
  • pay my parking ticket
  • go to jail for the crimes I did
they are most welcome to do so

So you see nothing to chat about

:)
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If you are not willing to do the same, then you do not follow the Golden Rule.

Only by ignoring your bible and good morality can you maintain your position.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
I pick on no one.

I am just showing those that do want to follow Jesus' commands, that they are failing to do so by promoting something immoral and unjust.
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Yes, that is picking in followers of Jesus.

I am asking why they are held to a higher standard than anyone else in the world.

Or is this just the first of many, many threads you are going to start - one for each religion, creed and philosophy that promotes compassionate behavior?
 
Greatest I am said:
No one but Christians believe that a God who can forgive without a blood sacrifice would be prick enough to have his son murdered instead of forgiving without a sacrifice.
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That is a very different argument than you present in the OP and the thread title.

I ask again, why are Christians singled out? No other peoples have self-contradictory or questionable teachings their religion, creed or philosophy?

Greatest I am said:
The O.P. is clear and names Christians and that is who "they" represents.
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So, all of them. All Christians. You've met all of them. You're OK with categorically labelling a billion people as hypocrites.
 
Greatest I am said:
If you are not willing to do the same, then you do not follow the Golden Rule.
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You got it

Wait what same?

Greatest I am said:
Only by ignoring your bible and good morality can you maintain your position.
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How perceptive you are

Wait what position?

Is there a queue?

Greatest I am said:
Not to those who wish to live moral lives and perhaps save Christianity.
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OK hands up all those willing to let Christianity go down the tubes

Ummmm quite a few

OK go home now, get some rest. Back here tomorrow same time

Don't forget your signs

We march at dawn

Onward non-Christian soldiers
Marching off to non-war

:)

 
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