Chosen People Syndrome

[Michael]

In India we have a severe problem with untouchability that is hard to eradicate even with education:



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-and-kicking-in-India/articleshow/4850136.cms

What do you suggest we do about these chosen peoples? What are the recommendations that will enable them to see the untouchables as human beings? Even Gandhi failed here with redefining them as "Harijans" [people of God]

How are they treated by the communists?
How are they treated by Muslims?
I seem to remember a bunch of these "untouchables" converting to Buddhism?

I remember reading that feudal Japan used to have "untouchables" but after modernizing this was seen as culturally backwards and people must have shammed one another out of acting like that. As a society they progressed.

 

[786]

What do you suggest we do about these chosen peoples? What are the recommendations that will enable them to see the untouchables as human beings? Even Gandhi failed here with redefining them as "Harijans" [people of God]

I think what needs to happen is that these 'untouchables' need to get into high office and use their corruption to put the 'elites' into jails and have them beg for mercy and let the tables turn.... after a century the line between superiority and inferiority amongst these groups will start to fade as the 'power' difference is shifted which tends to also effect social class.

This suggestion probably would work in India (and Pakistan) as these governments are corrupt beyond imagination... Especially the police departments. Of course the police scared of the ministers, so getting those spots and using that power to tilt the power could help.

Its all about power and money- that changes peoples 'perceptions'- :shrug:

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

Usually what happens is that when a Dalit leader who spent his childhood sitting in the chamar corner of the village and the chamar room in the local school gets some power, he adopts the same values which he sees as "upper class" ie while he can never be upper caste, he is amenable to exploring the wonderful world that financial opportunities open up to him. I've heard private quotes from such politicians emphasising the need to keep their vote banks under control [ie illiterate and subjugated]

I think none of you here can possibly understand the effects of chronic poverty and deprivation on the soul.

 

[786]

Perhaps you can remove the lower caste from India, and then bring those people back into India after a generation but changing all their last names to the upper castes or something totally different... No one will know who these folks are.... and if they happened to be Americans then most Indians would follow these new people as if they were mini-gods and fashion gurus- there you go... Lower caste exterminated without anyone knowing.

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

They are more than half the population.

 

[786]

They are more than half the population.

Lol.....

Well I don't know the Hindu scripture to well, but I'm sure there can be a reinterpretation of it-

Did the Hindu gods thought of the caste system as valid... for example did Krishna ever abuse or discriminate against someone from a 'lower caste'-- if not then there is opportunity for Hindu Reformation like you have so many Catholic reformations...... I think the idea of equality of people will be more accepted in the modern world.

Not that I'm trying to change their religion, but more about asking the quesiton 'What did Jesus do' - and what they did would be the religion. But that is only if these gods didn't discriminate against other people.

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

Its got nothing to do with Hindu scripture. The varna system is not the jati system. Its just racism.

 

[786]

Its got nothing to do with Hindu scripture. The varna system is not the jati system. Its just racism.

Well in that case, you need training of Pandits who don't teach this stuff since its not part of Hinduism..

Only thing that can solve this problem would have to be some type of religion reformation but it has to come from the pandits.... regardless of what 'sect' people believe in they still go to the temple, if the person there teaches them something totally anti-racist then that should in the long run change things.

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

Again its not taught by any religious pundit. Any religious pundit worth his salt would understand that varna [or the description of the economic arms and their interdependence] does not call for oppression due to misguided notions of inherited inferiority.

Surely you know that even Muslims have notions of jati in the subcontinent and identify themselves as Saeeds [Sayyads] and Pathans and Cheema whatnot. We just don't have a caste system or notions of untouchability.

 

[786]

Again its not taught by any religious pundit. Any religious pundit worth his salt would understand that varna [or the description of the economic arms and their interdependence] does not call for oppression due to misguided notions of inherited inferiority.

Surely you know that even Muslims have notions of jati in the subcontinent and identify themselves as Saeeds [Sayyads] and Pathans and Cheema whatnot. We just don't have a caste system or notions of untouchability.

Yep I know what you mean.. I'm from Pakistan so I know about 'zaat' (jati is the same thing you're referring to right but with Indian accent?)... Although frankly I didn't know any of this existed until one day my mom told me about it when my sister was about to get married. But I have no knowledge of it and neither do I care what 'zaat' someone is from... I think this is probably because of my lack of knowledge on the subject from the get go.... So from my example it would seem that the way to eliminate is to stop parents from telling their kids anything about it.

I think the idea is basically based on a psychological effect. For example my friend's friend (a caucasian American) converted out of Islam but he still doesn't eat pork- because it disgusts him.... I think the situation is similar... no amount of education can take away this 'disgust' that builds up....

This problem is indeed difficult to solve.... I think understanding the psychology of likes/dislikes and feelings of disgust is important, and then a way psychological solution to reverse these must be made... Any pysch majors here?

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

Although frankly I didn't know any of this existed until one day my mom told me about it when my sister was about to get married. But I have no knowledge of it and neither do I care what 'zaat' someone is from... I think this is probably because of my lack of knowledge on the subject from the get go.... So from my example it would seem that the way to eliminate is to stop parents from telling their kids anything about it.

No this is typically how it is in Muslims, people only talk about it when marriages come up. Then its a non-issue. Is your zaat and jamaat the same ?

 

[786]

No this is typically how it is in Muslims, people only talk about it when marriages come up. Then its a non-issue. Is your zaat and jamaat the same ?

I don't know my zaat... lol... My dad side is sheikh and my mom side is qureshi, I'm considered a sheikh- is that a zaat? What do you mean jamaat, is that something separate? Excuse my ignorance on the issue.

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

Most Muslim communities I know of in Mumbai are allied along their geographical location [Gujaratis for example) Within that they have sub-local communities: Surat, Jamnagar, Ahmedabad, Rajkot. Within that they have their zaat/jamaat [Bori, Ghanchi, Kuttchi etc]

So if you say someone is Bori jamaat, they are Dawoodi Bohras who follow Shia Islam from the Ismaili sect and and come from Gujarat from a trader zaat [Vehwahar] and have roots in Yemen, Egypt, Africa which are Indianised.

 

[786]

Most Muslim communities I know of in Mumbai are allied along their geographical location [Gujaratis for example) Within that they have sub-local communities: Surat, Jamnagar, Ahmedabad, Rajkot. Within that they have their zaat [Bori, Ghanchi etc]

So if you say someone is Bori jamaat, they are Dawoodi Bohras who follow Shia Islam and and come from Gujarat from a trader zaat [Vehwahar] and have roots in Yemen, Egypt, Africa which are Indianised.

lol...... That is some deep 'lineage' stuff.... I don't know anything about my zaat then... I don't know if the idea is as prevalent in Pakistan as India... I've never really heard anyone in Pakistan talk about it, especially not the youth.

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah its kinda like a map, history book, address, family photo and CV all in one.

You can pinpoint a person to a single village [and probably a location in the village] just by knowing his zaat. This will also tell you his customs, traditions, religious inclinations, food habits and probably who he is related to, if you are in the loop.

Its probably why the system is so hard to break, its everything that defines who and what a person is.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

What do you suggest we do about these chosen peoples? What are the recommendations that will enable them to see the untouchables as human beings? Even Gandhi failed here with redefining them as "Harijans" [people of God]

I have several expat Indian friends who are all young, liberal and modernized. (And unlike Sam, from traditional Hindu families.) When I ask them about the Dalits, they put their hand on my shoulder and say,

Fraggle, you have to understand that you live in a country that is only a couple of centuries old so you're accustomed to things changing rather quickly. Our country is more than ten times as old, so things happen at a much slower, more deliberate pace. All of us, including the Dalits, are accustomed to that.

And just look at you guys. You fought your own Civil War to free the slaves 150 years ago, but as an outsider I have to say it doesn't look like they are completely free yet.

We will free our Dalits, but it will take longer, perhaps even on the same scale: 1,500 years. We will be patient and so will the Dalits. You should be patient with us too. You Americans suffer from lack of patience.

I get similar comments from my Chinese friends when I ask them how much longer they're going to put up with a communist dictatorship. They just smile and remind me that China is about 4,000 years old so things happen slowly there.

 

[S.A.M.]

I guess its easier for people in the US to be patient about the Dalits in India. But they are right that it will take time. I refuse to accept that it will be 1500 years. No one should be sentenced to purgatory for so long.

 

[(Q)]

i'd leave that up to god itself.

That's the problem with theists, they would rather sit on their asses doing nothing and leave the problems for their gods to deal with, praying to wish it all away even though their gods haven't done anything and never will.

 

[(Q)]

In India we have a severe problem with untouchability that is hard to eradicate even with education:

What do you suggest we do about these chosen peoples? What are the recommendations that will enable them to see the untouchables as human beings? Even Gandhi failed here with redefining them as "Harijans" [people of God]

Sam, a very noble cause in your own homeland, I'm very proud of you. It's enough to bring a tear to my eye. I wish I could offer some solutions, but if education isn't working, then you have an even bigger problem on your hands.

 

[Gustav]

"Fraggle, you have to understand that you live in a country that is only a couple of centuries old so you're accustomed to things changing rather quickly. Our country is more than ten times as old, so things happen at a much slower, more deliberate pace. All of us, including the Dalits, are accustomed to that.

And just look at you guys. You fought your own Civil War to free the slaves 150 years ago, but as an outsider I have to say it doesn't look like they are completely free yet.

We will free our Dalits, but it will take longer, perhaps even on the same scale: 1,500 years. We will be patient and so will the Dalits. You should be patient with us too. You Americans suffer from lack of patience."


/vomit