superluminal said:This is good. Gotta go now. Hoping to get lots more input and learn some things.
As a by the by, my youngest cat (1 ish) has also learned to open drawers to get at cat toys. Strange creatures
superluminal said:This is good. Gotta go now. Hoping to get lots more input and learn some things.
Ok. If you say so.samcdkey said:Oh so you interpret the evidence based on your assumptions?
Of course. They're two very different species that diverged a looong time ago. They have completely different natural survival strategies.And your assumptions being that what is natural for a dog is unnatural for a cat?
Not ad infinitum, just for hundreds of thousands of years at a minimum. You still don't accept that you are completely driven by behaviors evolved to keep our non-technological ancestors alive. Amazing.Based on your other assumptions of the abundance of evolutionary behaviors which apparently accompany us ad infinitum?
Cool! I'm not saying that cats don't have an innate intelligence of some kind, just that it's very different from a dogs, as sam will agree with. She views her cats very differently than her dogs.wsionynw said:As a by the by, my youngest cat (1 ish) has also learned to open drawers to get at cat toys. Strange creatures
Not true. Dogs and humans formed the first multi-species community (not based on parasitism, symbiosis or exploitation) around 17,000 years ago. It would be several thousand years before humans developed the concept of animal husbandry or any other kind of agriculture and could settle down in villages without hunting and gathering. Humans could not have domesticated a bee at that early date, although it was one of our first when we finally learned how.samcdkey said:Dogs were domesticated by man.
Cats came to us in much the same way, although about 7,000 years later when civilization was well under way. One could say that the rodents actually came first, as soon as we learned to cultivate grain and built granaries to store it, but we never use the term "domesticated" for animals we don't want around. The cats followed the rodents and, like the dogs, learned that they were welcomed for their services.No one can call a cat domesticated; not if they value their skin. They honor you with their presence, that's all.
I've never heard of a colony of Felis species that hunts in packs. The only feline we're all familiar with that does this is the lion, Panthera leo. I would think that for a predator, the act of cooperating to satisfy hunger would create a much stronger social bond than anything else they're doing. Prey animals of course can form packs for protection. And then there are the Emperor penguins and the sea turtles who get together to lay eggs because it's the only place they know where they can lay them. I guess there are several reasons. I'd like to know why those cats form packs.superluminal said:I just learned that some feral cats will form "colonies". Not sure what this means for social behavior yet. Still reading.
Yeah, dogs exhibit as much variation as humans in their adaptation to the phenomenon of giant blocks of leisure time, something that does not occur in nature. However, when the leisure is over and they have to go back on duty, even the crankiest will usually join the pack. Of course "lone wolves" have always been common enough that we have an aphorism for it, but they're still relatively remarkable or the aphorism would not have been invented.redarmy11 said:Dogs vary wildly too. Some are loud and aggressive, others boisterous and playful; some are quiet but independent, some timid in the extreme; some are sociable, others like to be left alone.
Right. The article said nothing about cooperative hunting behavior.Fraggle Rocker said:I've never heard of a colony of Felis species that hunts in packs.
superluminal said:Not ad infinitum, just for hundreds of thousands of years at a minimum. You still don't accept that you are completely driven by behaviors evolved to keep our non-technological ancestors alive. Amazing.
samcdkey said:Cooperative hunting in male cheetahs of the Serengati:
Apparently, cats may not benefit much from group hunting.
Compared with other large cats, and other mammals, cheetahs have an unusual breeding system; whereas lions live in prides and tigers are solitary, some cheetahs live in groups while others live by themselves. Tim Caro explores group and solitary living among cheetahs and discovers that the causes of social behavior vary dramatically, even within a single species.
Why do cheetah cubs stay with their mother for a full year after weaning? Why do adolescents remain in groups? Why do adult males live in permanent associations with each other? Why do adult females live alone? Through observations on the costs and benefits of group living, Caro offers new insight into the complex behavior of this extraordinary species. For example, contrary to common belief about cooperative hunting in large carnivores, he shows that neither adolescents nor adult males benefit from hunting in groups.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226094340/103-1705470-7115056?v=glance&n=283155
redarmy11 said:Re. feline hunting: lions live in colonies and often hunt in packs. See the link. I've only glanced through it but the implication seems to be that they hunt co-operatively for selfish reasons where lone hunting isn't feasible. Nevertheless, pack hunting among felines isn't unknown, even if it's done reluctantly.
http://www.lionresearch.org/current/cooperation.html
superluminal said:The point is that it's not the normal strategy for cats. It is for domestic dogs, who are really just gray wolves. Even poodles. We live in harmony with dogs because our social group behaviors are so similar to begin with. We are nothing like cats in our species behavior.
I think you're being too specific. Of course humans have personal preferences for this-or-that. And there are loner humans just as there are "lone wolves", but they are far from the norm. Humans are a social group species. Dogs are a social group species. House cats are a solitary species.samcdkey said:Hmm I'm not so sure. Perhaps it's a case of like attarcting like.
There are as many people living in harmony with cats who prefer their behaviour to dogs (me, for example).
And there is really no telling how long it takes evolutionary behaviours to adapt, though it appears that there may be differences within the species as to the extent of adaptation.
First, read that article. Britons are wierd. Do you want to classed among those that generated those statistics? Not me.samcdkey said:Perhaps but with lifestyle changes going in the direction they are, I guarantee the cat will replace the dog, especially because it is so independent.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1965499.stm
And I do not agree with the solitary bit at all.
And I can explain all of this to you very simply, based on your own links. People are lazy and sefish. Cat's are independent. Translation: I don't have to do diddly but change the litter once in a while if I don't feel like it. And I can buy a machine to do that for me if I'm so inclined. Most people I've known who are exclusively cat owners have had a well visible streak of self-centeredness.samcdkey said:In the US too apparently,
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/inquirer_magazine/15181875.htm
Believe it or not, cats actually are more popular than dogs in America, with 90.5 million kitties owned as pets, compared with 73.9 million pups. That's according to the American Pet Products Manufacturing Association, which also reports that 51 percent of people who own cats own more than one.
superluminal said:First, read that article. Britons are wierd. Do you want to classed among those that generated those statistics? Not me.
And you disagree with the solitary bit? You can't since it's a sort of, you know, fact of the normal behavior of cats, don't ya know. Not talking about how you or Mrs. Liverwort snuggle with your cat in preference to a human, but the natural behavior of cats left to their own devices.