Catholics and Christians

*Originally posted by Dracula's Guest
Hang on I'm confused too, I thought the Catholics took their teachings from the New testatment*
Tony1 replied:
They don't, unless it agrees with everything else they say.

What kind of nonsense is that? explain. Do the Catholics take their teachings from the NT or not? A simple yes or no will do.

*and worshipped Jesus i.e. the one that was crucified and resurrected a few days later as referred to in the gospels.*
Tony1 replied:
They can't be worshipping that Jesus, since they have statues worshipping some guy still nailed to a cross.

And the Christians dont???? How many Christians wear crucifixes round their necks?

*Surely that would make them followers of Christ, i.e. Christians. Surely the word "Christian" is a vague term for people who follow Christ?? *
Tony1 replied:
Vagueness is key where Catholicism is concerned.*

Would you care to enlighten me on that one? :confused:
 
Aww isnt puppy love sweet.

KalvinB.. the way you run to Tony1's side in defence is just so lovely, Im glad you two have found each other.
Seems to be a very loving relationship, however ...get back to the damned point of the thread.

I agree with Dracula's Guest who said....(quote) :
Hang on I'm confused too, I thought the Catholics took their teachings from the New testatment and worshipped Jesus i.e. the one that was crucified and resurrected a few days later as referred to in the gospels. Surely that would make them followers of Christ, i.e. Christians. Surely the word "Christian" is a vague term for people who follow Christ??

"It's like saying you can be a trout without being a fish. "


Cheers
RazZ:D
 
Razz,

KalvinB.. the way you run to Tony1's side in defence is just so lovely, Im glad you two have found each other.
Seems to be a very loving relationship, however ...get back to the damned point of the thread.
Click to expand...
Tony1 has been criticized for similar style comments. Please take care; you don’t need to be hostile.

There is nothing wrong with supporting the views of another; in fact it helps show the support or lack of support for a particular position. I have often supported others here where I think they are unsure of a particular point or where they have made a particular strong point.

Cris
 
KalvinB

Your reply didn't really answer the question. You might as well have said that god was the head of both.
I'll rephrase the question I asked.
Clearly I need to be very, very specific when addressing you.

Which living, human, physically tangible person, man/ woman/ other is the head of the christian faith on Earth in the sol system, and,
Which living, human, physically tangible person, man/ woman/ other is the head of the catholic faith on Earth in the sol system.

Chris,

It dumbfounds me that the most powerfull country in the world doesn't use egg cups!
 
Egg cups

It dumbfounds me that the most powerfull country in the world doesn't use egg cups!
Click to expand...
Well, I don't eat eggs, but I know of the cups to which you refer.

But I'm willing to venture it has something to do with Manifest Destiny, Conestoga wagons, and that pioneer spirit of 18th and 19th century Americans. Specifically, ceramic egg cups probably didn't travel well across the plain. All things considered, I doubt the things had any trading value with the tribes along the way, and furthermore, well ... read Little House on the Prarie or some such and tell me what value the egg cups have. The point being that by the time you get to the West Coast, we probably have no need, and many of us have no recollection, of egg cups.

To the other, we find it silly that there are seven forks on a dinner setting and that there is etiquette about how you proceed through those forks. It's something weird about Americans.

You want it even weirder? We don't pay according to supply and demand, which is a joke about American capitalists. There are no labor considerations made anymore in the classical-theoretic sense. Think of cigarettes: a cigarette that requires more labor costs less in the stores. This is the flip-side of the egg cups. We don't like the formalism of certain things, which have never been convenient for the frenetic pace of American "civility". We like the quality, and will pay more for less if we get quality, but any sense of ceremony, formalism, or etiquette surrounding anything we buy, consume, or do is a mere stumbling block imposed by people with less important things to do. Or, so to say, something like that.

I think what's even more telling, though, is how many Americans think there's only one way to crack an egg. That we don't use egg cups speaks nothing of our civilization. That we depend on a diversity we cannot recognize ideologically speaks much about the practice of our so-called civilization.

Sorry to be aside here; I've been amused by the egg-cup exchange, so here's my two cents.

While we're on the subject of egg cups, I'm curious if the PAAS Easter-egg kits sell widely in the UK or other European countries. there's our egg cups, a piece of octagonal wire and a paper cylinder. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Tiassa,

You realize we are totally off topic, but what the heck.

PAAS Easter eggs and egg decorating in the UK, as far as I know doesn’t exist.

Easter eggs in the UK are a big tradition, and a much bigger commercial enterprise than in the USA. You should first realize that Easter eggs are typically 6 inches long, and many are much larger. They consist of a chocolate shell and the inside of the egg is usually filled with sweets (candy). At Easter time all the stores are well stocked with these popular chocolate goodies. Most kids would expect all their relatives to buy them Easter eggs. It would be typical for the average kid to say have 10 or more of these large eggs, and many get very sick when they try to eat them all on the same day.

I have a 19 year old daughter who lives with me here who still receives chocolate Easter eggs shipped from the UK by various relatives.

The tradition of painting eggs and egg hunts doesn’t exist in the UK, and neither does the Easter bunny.

Does that help?

And I still haven’t seen any egg cups for sale in Silicon Valley.

:D :D :D

Cris
 
Some clarifications

There are several reasons why certain denominations of "Christians" maintain that Catholicism is not a pure form of Christianity. I am not an expert on this topic, but I will present a few general points that IIRC are often made:

1) Catholics maintain that the writings of the early church fathers are just as important as the Bible, and that church traditions also carry the same weight. The counter is that this is in conflict with Revelation 22:18-19: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." These verses are used to show that Catholics aren't Christian because they have placed other writings on the level of the Bible.

2) Catholics believe that the pope is an infallible agent of God on earth. Others believe that by making this claim, the pope has put himself on the level of God, and therefore is usurping God's position, not a very Christian thing to do.

3) Catholics believe that works are required for salvation. Others maintain that nowhere does the Bible say that works are required for salvation, therefore the Catholics are adding to the Bible.

These are some of the arguments that I have heard, as best as I can remember them. If I mistated any of the positions, I apologize.
 
Interesting...

But I have trouble with the first "difference".

"1) Catholics maintain that the writings of the early church fathers are just as important as the Bible, and that church traditions also carry the same weight..."

For a start, the New Testament is a collection of ancient texts. There were many ancient texts that were written about Jesus and early Christians, some of them became part of the published Bible, some didnt. There was an interesting site I found which traces the development of the NT and gives attention to those texts that never became part of the finished book. The author mentions in one part that some people have this idea that "the Bible was lowered down from heaven on a rope in a nice leather bound volume" but it just isnt true.

Quote:
"Our four canonical gospels did not begin their lives as the gospels of "Matthew," "Mark," "Luke" and "John." Different groups of early Christians maintained their own oral traditions of Jesus's wisdom, as writing was a specialized skill and not every fellowship enjoyed the services of a scribe.....Eventually, as these expanded writings spread through other communities, some versions were viewed as having more authority than others. It was not until the pronouncement of Bishop Irenæus (185 C.E.) that Christians began to accept only the four familiar gospels as authoritative....... "


check it out at:
http://www.qtm.net/~trowbridge/NT_Hist.htm
 
The extent that the Catholic church holds it's own words as authorative extends to the pope.

When the "prophet" of the LDS church speaks it's as good as scripture. And actually prophet's have been known to say (you can look it up) if they had to choose between the Bible and the word of the prophets, they'd take the word of the prophets.

The catholic church is much the same. That's what makaera was talking about.

You also can't criticize what books are included and which aren't without examining the "why."

Just because a script claims to be accuarate doesn't mean it is and that's what the early church fathers sorted out. In order to prove they made a mistake you have to look at the texts they tossed out and examine their reasons for doing so to see if they were valid or not.

Ben
 
just wanted to point out that I am not saying they are "good" christians (if such a thing even exists) but that they are indeed christians.
 
Re: Try it this way.

*Originally posted by esp
Who is the head of the christian church?*

Jesus Christ.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:18, KJV).

*Who is the head of the catholic church?*

The current pope.

*Opening your eggs in the middle...
Does that mean that you use two egg cups?
Or that your eggs spill when you have them runny? *

No egg cups, and when I have my eggs runny, they are extra runny, as in, raw.

This egg thing is going in strange directions.

*Originally posted by Cris
But I am pleased you are consistent with one another in your impossible beliefs about middle ends since, after all, you do believe in impossibilities like gods and such.*

It's not that impossible.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
(Luke 18:27, KJV).

*And for the record I am a little endian, and that is clearly the only correct way to open one’s egg.*

That clarity is what is inhibiting your ability to see.
And while you are correct in identifying the little-endian way as the correct way, I have chosen the best way.

*Originally posted by Dracula's Guest
What kind of nonsense is that? explain. Do the Catholics take their teachings from the NT or not? A simple yes or no will do.*

No.

*How many Christians wear crucifixes round their necks?*

Zero.
Although, I admit there may be many crucifix-wearers who call themselves Christian.

*Would you care to enlighten me on that one?*

Sure.
Christian means anointed one.
For Catholics, any suitably vague definition of Christian serves, since that way they might be able to pass as Christians.

*Originally posted by makaera
2) Catholics believe that the pope is an infallible agent of God on earth. Others believe that by making this claim, the pope has put himself on the level of God, and therefore is usurping God's position, not a very Christian thing to do.*

He is neither usurping God's position nor acting for God.
One of his titles is Vicarius Christi, which when translated into English comes out as Vicar of Christ.
On the other hand, when it is translated first into Greek and then into English, it comes out as Antichrist.

*Originally posted by hockeywings
just wanted to point out that I am not saying they are "good" christians (if such a thing even exists) but that they are indeed christians.*

Since one of the titles of their leader is Antichrist, the closest they get to being Christian, is being antichristian.
So no, they aren't "good" christians.

But can you let us in on the big point you're building up to that demands that Catholics be considered Christians?
 
tony1

Although, I admit there may be many crucifix-wearers who call themselves Christian.

Who are you to say what others believe? Who are you to say they are not true Christians? Was this power included in the package of supernatural ablilities you have received from God? Or where you simply born with it? :rolleyes:
 
Xelios... once again I agree....

I have also noticed that quite a few christians both here on sciforum and in the world christian family, seem to think they are somewhat better Christians than the ones sitting next to them. why is this so?
why indeed do they feel they have the ablility to see into anothers heart, let alone the right in the first place to pass judgement upon their fellow man?

From what I understand a true christian is, as a true christian does, ....theirs is not to pass judgement, but to help guide those that may stumble away from God's true teachings, without casting stones or scowling in distaste.

So much for leading by example.... tis the blind leading the blind I say.
Its scarey when even the religious cant seem to find the peace and clarity of harmony within their own religious circles.

Maybe the religious would do well to remember that Just because you believe the lord has blessed you, does not mean you wont sneaze again...after all Nobody is perfect!
All true christians, and even athiests like me know that.

Cheers
RazZ:bugeye:
 
The egg thing was intended to serve as an example of semantics.
But the point should be, does it matter where you open your eggs as long as you eat them?
 
*Originally posted by Xelios
Who are you to say what others believe?*

?

*Who are you to say they are not true Christians?*

Christians believe the Bible, specifically the following...

For, if with your lips you acknowledge the truth of the Message that JESUS IS LORD, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
(Romans 10:9, TCNT).

A crucifix specifically portrays Jesus nailed to the cross, otherwise it would be called a cross.
If you believe Jesus is raised from the dead, why would you try to give others the impression that he wasn't?

*Originally posted by razz
why indeed do they feel they have the ablility to see into anothers heart*

We don't need that ability.
All we need to do is listen, or read.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks..
(Matthew 12:34, KJV).

*theirs is not to pass judgement, but to help guide those that may stumble away from God's true teachings, without casting stones or scowling in distaste.*

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
(John 7:24, KJV).

Who's casting stones, or scowling?

*Its scarey when even the religious cant seem to find the peace and clarity of harmony within their own religious circles.*

We aren't as fussy as you are.
We can tolerate people who are a little rough around the edges or in an unfinished state.
Mind you, there are some religious buildings in which none but the rich and previously perfect are allowed.

*Maybe the religious would do well to remember that Just because you believe the lord has blessed you, does not mean you wont sneaze again*

How would you know?
Besides, have you any idea what "blessed" means?

*Originally posted by esp
But the point should be, does it matter where you open your eggs as long as you eat them?*

Excellent point, particularly in view of the topic.
Religions and philosophies are all about which end of the egg one favors.
Christianity eats the egg.
 
A crucifix specifically portrays Jesus nailed to the cross, otherwise it would be called a cross.
If you believe Jesus is raised from the dead, why would you try to give others the impression that he wasn't?

You still do not have the right to judge anyone's "credibility" as a Christian. Maybe they are simply thanking Jesus for enduring such a horrible death for them in their own way? Maybe they are trying to remind people of the kind of pain he went through? Prejudice is not really an acceptable social quality anymore tony1.
 
All quotes are from tony1.

*Originally posted by hockeywings
just wanted to point out that I am not saying they are "good" christians (if such a thing even exists) but that they are indeed christians.*

Since one of the titles of their leader is Antichrist, the closest they get to being Christian, is being antichristian.
So no, they aren't "good" christians.

But can you let us in on the big point you're building up to that demands that Catholics be considered Christians?
Click to expand...
big point? none whatsoever, just for you to admit that your wrong at this, that is it.
*How many Christians wear crucifixes round their necks?*

Zero.
Although, I admit there may be many crucifix-wearers who call themselves Christian.
Click to expand...
Wow, the complete prejudice and discrimination located in this statement absolutely amazes me.
*Originally posted by Cris
But I am pleased you are consistent with one another in your impossible beliefs about middle ends since, after all, you do believe in impossibilities like gods and such.*

It's not that impossible.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
(Luke 18:27, KJV).
So, what you are saying is that gods are possible for god, but impossible for man, good job tony, finally you are listening.
*Originally posted by razz
why indeed do they feel they have the ablility to see into anothers heart*

We don't need that ability.
All we need to do is listen, or read.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks..
(Matthew 12:34, KJV).
Click to expand...
wow that is bad enough just to be able to know one can lie. If one is lieing then you arent listening to their heart. So, in other words yo9u cant have that ability from listening or reading.
*Originally posted by Xelios
Who are you to say what others believe?*

?

*Who are you to say they are not true Christians?*

Christians believe the Bible, specifically the following...

For, if with your lips you acknowledge the truth of the Message that JESUS IS LORD, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
(Romans 10:9, TCNT).

A crucifix specifically portrays Jesus nailed to the cross, otherwise it would be called a cross.
If you believe Jesus is raised from the dead, why would you try to give others the impression that he wasn't?
Click to expand...
Lets say you like football, and you tape every game of the season, including the playoffs and the super bowl, and you were bored one day, would you only watch the superbowl even if there were better football games during the regular season just because you watching the regular season gives the "impression" that your team didnt win the super bowl?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
*Originally posted by Xelios
You still do not have the right to judge anyone's "credibility" as a Christian.*

Sure I do.
Where did you get the idea that I don't?

*Maybe they are simply thanking Jesus for enduring such a horrible death for them in their own way?*

That may be true, but the point of Christianity is the resurrection, not the cross.

*Maybe they are trying to remind people of the kind of pain he went through?*

People are already pretty much aware of pain.
What people need is the way to get saved from pain.
The resurrection is the example of that.

*Prejudice is not really an acceptable social quality anymore tony1. *

Luckily, I'm postjudging.

*Originally posted by hockeywings
big point? none whatsoever, just for you to admit that your wrong at this, that is it. *

Some point.
I could have told you right at the start that wasn't going to happen.

*Wow, the complete prejudice and discrimination located in this statement absolutely amazes me. *

All of a sudden, everyone's an expert on Christianity.
Why don't you apply some of this expertise to the issue at hand?

*that is bad enough just to be able to know one can lie. If one is lieing then you arent listening to their heart. So, in other words yo9u cant have that ability from listening or reading.*

Lying comes from the heart.
You seem to be under the illusion that it is possible to tell the completely successful lie.

*Lets say you ... win the super bowl?*

You're asking if I want to fool myself.
No.
 
Sure I do.
Where did you get the idea that I don't?

No, you don't.

Luckily, I'm postjudging.

No, you're not. You have yet to even talk to the person, and already because of her choice of necklaces you judge her as not a true Christian. Ie. prejudging.
 
*Originally posted by Xelios
No, you don't.*

Sure I do.
Where did you get the idea that I don't?

*You have yet to even talk to the person, and already because of her choice of necklaces you judge her as not a true Christian. Ie. prejudging. *

And who is this person I'm supposedly prejudging?

Here's why it's not prejudging...

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
(Acts 17:29, KJV).

That was written long before your person was born.
 
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