Catholic Church about to collapse

[Bells]

bells you miss the point compleatly. if the pope did as he has been acused then he SHOULD be brought to justice but i am VERY suspicious of Dawkins motives. He isnt out everyday campaining for victom rights, hes out everyday campaining for the end of the church and suddenly he wakes up and sees the victoms of child abuse? Bull shit. Would you buy that sort of sudden conversion from one of our pollies? I doubt it, its a cynical excersise designed to push his OWN adjender and the fact that he is using abuse victoms to do it is discusting

As has already been pointed out, Dawkins has been pointing out the issue of child abuse within the Church and how the Church has either ignored it or simply moved priests to other diocese, where the crime would be committed again and again, for many many years. This is neither sudden nor a "conversion".

So anyone up to discussing what he's being accused of? And for which cases? And evidence against him?

Letters found, written by him, where he ordered Catholic diocese to not report abuse to the police and to keep it 'in house', in that it would be investigated by the Church, while he was in charge of defrocking priests, for things like abuse. One of the worst aspects of this particular letter is this:

The letter states that the church's jurisdiction 'begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age' and lasts for 10 years.

Astounding really, isn't it?


Then of course there was this letter that was found, that showed his complete and willing failure to act when an Archbishop wrote to him, with the advice that one particular priest had to be defrocked and an investigation had to be made, due to the horrendous abuse he had inflicted upon children.

And then of course we have yet another letter, signed by him, where he resisted defrocking an abusive priest, for the good of the Church as a whole.

All this was while he was in charge of investigating child abuse cases amongst the priesthood and defrocking priests in cases of abuse.

If he were not the Pope, he would have been arrested and a trial date would have been set by now.

 

[superstring01]

Catholic Church about to collapse

One would hope.

The pope should be arrested as an accessory to child abuse. Of course it won't happen.

He's the head of state of TWO, internationally recognized sovereign political entities, as you well know: The Holy See and the Vatican City. As a head of state, he cannot be charged. Though, I do think he should resign.

Darwinism is also a religion that puts human beings on the pedestal of ethics. And ethics always necessitates double standards.

Darwinism is science that states that ethics is whatever it is, and it won't effect the universe in any meaningful way beyond what it does for us. Religion, however, is the ultimate pompousness: humans are special, a god--that we invented--created the universe to cater to us.

Since we are a science based site here, or putatively so, which case are we referring to? And whats the evidence of Ratzingers involvement?

He's the head of an organization that has systematically abused children. At the very least, he should resign for incompetence and pass the mantle on to someone who can resolve these issues.

~String

 

[soullust]

my god you people.

gossip travels fast, and the catholic Church is going no where, the church got through worst then this, as bad as it is, and how can you judge our new pope for something when there was no trial, is he responsible for the actions of other men, no.

And as horrible as it sounds, god forgives everyone if they truly repent there sins, these priests obviously were bad men they might have put on a show grievance, and naturally the pope would try to help these people and forgive them for there sins, i mean it is gods way???

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Yes, but they weren't just sins.
They were also grievous crimes.
The church had no right to cover them up.

There is no doubt that the cover up caused more children to be abused, so the church itself is culpable.


To call it gossip sticks in people's craw.
So does the Pope's comparing the present sufferings of the Catholic Church to those of Jesus. He did this in his Easter address.

The church has been gripped by a fantasy that it can do no wrong, and has a lot to answer for.

 

[Bells]

my god you people.

gossip travels fast, and the catholic Church is going no where, the church got through worst then this, as bad as it is, and how can you judge our new pope for something when there was no trial, is he responsible for the actions of other men, no.

And as horrible as it sounds, god forgives everyone if they truly repent there sins, these priests obviously were bad men they might have put on a show grievance, and naturally the pope would try to help these people and forgive them for there sins, i mean it is gods way???

No one is holding him responsible for the actions of priests who abused children.

What he is being held responsible for are his own actions, or lack of actions, when he was placed in a position to act. He placed the good of the Church over the good of the flock, and worst of all, over the good of the most vulnerable and innocent of his flock, children.

 

[S.A.M.]

So no one is interested in the issue or his role in it?

Why not just get together a lynch mob then?

He's the head of an organization that has systematically abused children. At the very least, he should resign for incompetence and pass the mantle on to someone who can resolve these issues.

He sounds just like the head of the US military then. And they have killed children. And are equally not accountable to civil jurisdiction for their crimes. Except of course, the Pope is the head of the church and doesn't answer to anyone but God. And if the bonobos sex life is for real, God has no objections to buggering children.

Generalisations do not make for a crime. His personal role and the evidence against him has to hold up in court before he can be lynched.

 

[Asguard]

He's the head of state of TWO, internationally recognized sovereign political entities, as you well know: The Holy See and the Vatican City. As a head of state, he cannot be charged. Though, I do think he should resign.

Incorect, firstly crimes against humanity are international crimes which ANYONE sitting or not can be charged with

Secondly, heads of state CAN be charged. Maybe the pope cant and maybe the US president cant but that doesnt mean that every juristiction gives its head of state immunity. There is no imunity for the GG, the Queen or the PM in Australia for instance and alot of laws SPECIFY that they bind the crown INCLUDING the crimes consolidation act

 

[S.A.M.]

There is no imunity for the GG, the Queen or the PM in Australia for instance and alot of laws SPECIFY that they bind the crown INCLUDING the crimes consolidation act

In theory, but in practice?

 

[krazedkat]

About to collapse? About damn time!

 

[Asguard]

In theory, but in practice?

in practice there is no imunity against being sued or charged, its happened before and continues to happen. The SA attorney general was sued for defimination and lost i belive. One Minster of the NSW parliment was charged and convicted of pedophilia. Other MPs including the Premure of WA have been hauled up in front of the anti coruption commissions. One Minster of SA had something like 400 driving offenses to his name and was striped of his licence (ironically this emerged just after he was made the road saftey minster).

I cant think of an instance where the PM or GG have been charged with a crime but there is apsolutly nothing stopping it. Of course in the PMs case he would probably be saked by his party if it was a big enough crime

 

[Captain Kremmen]

And if the bonobos sex life is for real, God has no objections to buggering children.

Does that hold for the Muslim faith too?

 

[S.A.M.]

Does that hold for the Muslim faith too?

I don't believe there is any such regulation in any faith. Is there?

Age of consent is a matter strictly of local jurisdiction.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Well, theres no injunction against wives cutting their husbands throats either, but you can read between the lines.

In any case, Bonobos do not have "children".
That is anthropomorphism.

 

[Bells]

So no one is interested in the issue or his role in it?

Isn't that what this discussion is about?

His personal role and the evidence against him has to hold up in court before he can be lynched.

Alas, he will never see his day in court, will he?

Investigations are made internally, remember?

I don't believe there is any such regulation in any faith. Is there?

Which is unfortunate.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Bells, this is below you.
It's what we call in the UK a "Daily Mail" story.
(Daily Mail readers don't. They call it the facts)

It's a story intended to inflame prejudices, by portraying other cultures as primitive, greedy, or a threat.

ie "They are hardly human beings. They are different to us"

I'm sure that Yemenis would never have survived if they subjected many of their young women to fatal rapes.

And I don't think that the women would have put up with it either.

 

[Bells]

My point is that there should be regulation in faith. But there is not. We see it in the Catholic Church and we see it in just about all other religions.

I don't know about you, but a man who has sex with a child is not what I would classify as a human being and no, he is not like me. Call me a bigot, but I do not consider myself to be like a paedophile. Be they priests who destroy the lives of children in their flock or adults who marry children.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I don't know enough about it to make a judgement on the Yemen practise.
The article didn't look like it made any attempt to find out the details.


The priest activity, and the cover up is pure evil.
A lot of the hierarchy don't get it yet, but I think that it is slowly coming home to them.

 

[Bells]

I don't know enough about it to make a judgement on the Yemen practise.
The article didn't look like it made any attempt to find out the details.

At least some there in religious circles are trying to deal with the problem and not try to sweep it under the carpet. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the Church.

The priest activity, and the cover up is pure evil.

You know what I don't understand about all of this. The smiles like it is water off a duck's back. The letters by our current Pope when he was in charge of defrocking abusive priests, the refusals to defrock abusive priests, the delays in even investigating abusive priests, the letters where he orders bishops around the world to think of the Church first and foremost and allow abusive priests to remain as priests and have access to small children.

If he were not the pope, he would probably be in jail by now. But the Church remains immune.

A lot of the hierarchy don't get it yet, but I think that it is slowly coming home to them.

Wishful thinking.

On Monday, the Vatican's Secretary of State, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, outraged gay rights groups worldwide saying it was homosexuality - not the Church's celibacy - which lay behind the abuse of minors.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8622671.stm

They will never get it.

 

[superstring01]

He sounds just like the head of the US military then. And they have killed children.

Hmmmm. Noooooo. Actually he sounds more like Muslims--you know--the people who abuse women, mutilate their vaginas, rape little girls, force them to marry before puberty. But that would be a non sequitur, wouldn't it?

~String

 

[iceaura]

And if the bonobos sex life is for real, God has no objections to buggering children.

IIRC bonobos do not bugger their children.

There is no imunity for the GG, the Queen or the PM in Australia for instance and alot of laws SPECIFY that they bind the crown INCLUDING the crimes consolidation act
”
In theory, but in practice?

In practice heads of state have been prosecuted for crimes - or forced to take refuge in distant lands to avoid such prosecution. Many highly placed and powerful officials find their travel planes restricted, with arrest waiting for them if their plane lands in the wrong country.

The Pope would make an interesting figure on the lam, fleeing to avoid the international courts or writs of extradition, unable to travel in many places.

He has apparently committed crimes across national boundaries, so that the laws of many different countries would apply.