Carrot and Stick Morality

[Leo Volont]

Carrot and Stick Morality

It was Post War Suburbia. Nice people moved from the Cities and conspired to have their children raised correctly. I did not even hear the ‘f’ word until I was 14. In School we were told of these places called ‘Reform School’ where the rule-breakers were sent to live a life of perpetual heartbreaking penance.. Although we were given no specific descriptions, we were all lead to believe children there lived in the utmost misery. Children who went to Reform School, for instance, never came back. That was scary enough in itself.

Were children of this neighborhood scarred for life by this imposition of grave emotional trauma. No. In fact, the working class High School I graduated from had the highest Graduation Rate in the State, and attracted more Scholarship Money then the next several districts put together.

Our Parents had created for us a suitable learning, and living, environment.

Exactly what was the essence of this Suitable Moral Environment. Fear. We were lead to believe that the consequences of inappropriate behavior carried a horrifying risk.

Louis the XIV once explained that if Penalties were exorbitantly terrifying, then they would rarely ever need to be exercised. If the very thought of certain torturous punishments would chill the blood cold and turn the hair white with fright, then it is safe to assume that nobody would ever consider exposing themselves to such an unacceptable risk.

But today we have sixteen year old slutty girls whoring around because they think the benefits are worth the risk. We have sixteen year old boys stealing cars, carrying guns and selling drugs. Again, because it is perceived as worth the risk.

In this we all get what we ask for. If we didn’t want our daughters turning into sluts and living like whores, then why do we tolerate it? If we didn’t want our sons to steal cars, shoot at each other and do drugs, then why do we tolerate it? The Penalties we impose are considered mere inconveniences.

Right now Society encourages labor. Act like a good slave and you get enough money to handle house and car payments. There should be more. Work hard and behave well, and each of us should get the Cornucopia of Plenty. But behave badly… well, the consequences of that should be unthinkable.

Well, unless there really is such a thing as “brainwashing”. I would love to go to China and find out if the ‘Re-education Camps” actually work… whether Scumbag Bourgeois Predatory Exploiters can actually be turned into Heaven-Fearing Big-Hearted Men of the People. But if People cannot be systematically re-educated to be fit members of our Community, then they should be used as pitiful examples of the horrible consequences of Moral Failure.

 

[Leo Volont]

I read a book a few years back entitled "End of Work". Its premise was that Robotic and Computerized Equipment would to Our Civilization was to the Roman, a Source of cheap Productive Capacity that would put Free Labor out of Business. For instance, Productivity has gone up several hundred percent in just the last decade, simultaneously as Employment has gone down... Technology is taking up the slack and then some.

But the Distribution of Wealth within All Civilizations has been 'Wealth for Work'. Yet Work is being diverted from Human Beings to Capatal Machines -- the Capatalists have figured out a way to keep all the Money.

If Civilization is to survive, Wealth will have to begin to be distributed for other reasons then in strict exchange for Labor. I would propose that People get paid for Moral Compliance.

When Rome faced the same problem because Slavery was so cheap that Free Labor could no longer compete in the Market, it was decided to have a Policy of ‘Free Bread and Circuses’ – Roman Citizens across the Empire were fed and amused with funds from the State… it would prevent idle minds and hands from turning to Social Rebellion and Criminal Activity. Rome only collapsed later when its Oligarchs refused to contribute into the Taxations that made it all possible. Rome just like our Civilization had Rich People who will involve themselves into Politics simply to Destroy Government by eroding the Tax Base.

 

[Godless]

Exactly what was the essence of this Suitable Moral Environment. Fear. We were lead to believe that the consequences of inappropriate behavior carried a horrifying risk.

Oh!! poor old Leo, were you were brought up by fear. Fear is the cause of your mental corruption, it's fear that has entangled your sense of perception, thus you don't see reason, nor understand logic, you were made to fear them.

But today we have sixteen year old slutty girls whoring around because they think the benefits are worth the risk.

And haven't we have had this through all of lifetime?. Young teen girls whoring themselves is nothing new Leo. Even Jesus fell for a whore. She washed his feet, and he protected her from being stoned to death. Do you think she deserved to be killed? or could you have been the ONE to cast the first stone?

We have sixteen year old boys stealing cars, carrying guns and selling drugs. Again, because it is perceived as worth the risk

They know the danger Leo, they are revelious "like your Jesus" was considered to be revelious. Both the car theif teen and Jesus have in common they both wanted to defy authority, they both pay the price. Though I think Jesus' punishment was a bit more excessive, than our teens. Do you suppose we should crusify our teens or just simply hang them?

In this we all get what we ask for. If we didn’t want our daughters turning into sluts and living like whores, then why do we tolerate it? If we didn’t want our sons to steal cars, shoot at each other and do drugs, then why do we tolerate it? The Penalties we impose are considered mere inconveniences

And again what do you cosider a just punishment? The likes of the bible, would have them put to death, the likes of the Torah would stone them to death, the likes of Qua'ran would mained their body parts, girls stoned to death, or get their heads cut off for "ruining their temple with drugs". So what do you deem just punishment?

Right now Society encourages labor. Act like a good slave and you get enough money to handle house and car payments. There should be more. Work hard and behave well, and each of us should get the Cornucopia of Plenty. But behave badly… well, the consequences of that should be unthinkable.

Ok!! we'r moving from morality to social economics? We'r not slaves Leo, people have choices work for your own effort, or depend on others for your livelyhood. Like priests. Were do you suppose the "Cornucopia of Plenty" will come from leo?. Pat Robison? he's a tv evangelist worth more than $200millions and still begs for more.

Well, unless there really is such a thing as “brainwashing”. I would love to go to China and find out if the ‘Re-education Camps” actually work… whether Scumbag Bourgeois Predatory Exploiters can actually be turned into Heaven-Fearing Big-Hearted Men of the People.

What yelous of the bourgeois, capitalists, then are you just looking for a handout.? You've got to earn your own living how you do that determines your wealth, however not all efforts are honest and cinsere. Take for instance Pat Robison, his ministry is worth more than $500 million he personally owns diamond mines in Africa, and yet begs every sunday for more! This asshole does not earn his money, he don't produce shit, but lies deceptive religious dogma, and full of crap, as many other fucking priests, do every fucking sunday they pass the godamn plate to collect dues from patrisioners. It's the dum ass gullible people faults for making these sob's rich.

Take for instance Bill Gates, he produces something of value, that has benefited the world in unparralell comparison to the asshole above.

Godless.

 

[Leo Volont]

Young teen girls whoring themselves is nothing new Leo. Even Jesus fell for a whore. She washed his feet, and he protected her from being stoned to death. Do you think she deserved to be killed? or could you have been the ONE to cast the first stone?

Godless.

Nothing new, but we have Statistics and Demographics now and can study trends. We KNOW that there are more slutty amoral girls then ever before, in our Statistical Histories. The Trend is Up.

Yes, you make a good point about Mercy. But so did I, but you did not catch it -- that extremely horrible punishments seldom need to be repeated. So, Yes, examples need to be made.

Otherwise we have a Universal Tolerance for Promiscuity. Is that better? Let us look back at Victorian Middle Class Society, available to us through a huge library of Literature, and determine whether their Morality Based Culture was not intrinsically happier then our 50% Divorce Rates and Our Single Parent Households.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Leo has a completely valid point. Negative reinforcement is a powerful
way to influence another person's behavior; however, it can easily
be overdone to various temperments and lead to permanent psychological
damage.

On the flipside, positive reinforcement is also a powerful way to influence
another person's behavior. It helps people achive and exceed their potentials
and grow in a manner that negative reinforcement does not allow.

 

[Leo Volont]

Leo has a completely valid point. Negative reinforcement is a powerful
way to influence another person's behavior; however, it can easily
be overdone to various temperments and lead to permanent psychological
damage.

On the flipside, positive reinforcement is also a powerful way to influence
another person's behavior. It helps people achive and exceed their potentials
and grow in a manner that negative reinforcement does not allow.

Positive and Negative Reinforcements, when Public, go way beyond the individuals directly involved. The other children who witness such episodes of Reward or Punishment are provided with a Model of their Universe which offers things to Hope for and things to Fear. Hope tells them that they can be Happy. But Fear tells them that they must stay within certain Socially Accepted Boundaries while pursuing this Happiness.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Reinforcement is actually all about the individual no matter what's
influencing it. Societal-based reinforcement is an accretion of individual
reinforcement styles and philosophies. It's typically slower to change than
an individual's reinforecment preferences but is very effective IF the
expectations of desired behavior are coherent, realistic, and non-
contradictive.

 

[Godless]

Nothing new, but we have Statistics and Demographics now and can study trends. We KNOW that there are more slutty amoral girls then ever before, in our Statistical Histories. The Trend is Up.

The only reason there are more Leo, is because more people exist in our society. No civilization, in the world history has been perfectly pure of religious based moral value. Because the religious moral value is not moral but immoral, by extending very excessive punishments for miniscule crimes. If a teen desides to be a slut, it's her sorrounding enviorement which makes this decission warranted, it's the upbringing of her parents, that were not able to teach her to be moral for herself, but for the benefits of others, it is a low self-steem issue, becuase the religious dogma does not teach self-steem, but fear, fear warps the mind, and people do unreasonable acts. Self esteem is not a given, it's a learned from your rearing of children, if parents fail in essence to teach a good moral values, with the benefit of self esteem, circusmstances are that the teen girl will grow up with low-self esteem and lack of self-respect.

Otherwise we have a Universal Tolerance for Promiscuity. Is that better? Let us look back at Victorian Middle Class Society, available to us through a huge library of Literature, and determine whether their Morality Based Culture was not intrinsically happier then our 50% Divorce Rates and Our Single Parent Households.

Well people are not been encarcerated, for promiscous sex, to me this a step forward. The church nor government should be in between the affairs of two consenting adults. We don't need baby-sitters. Though the religious rights are fighting hard to make it criminal. A prostitute who sells her body for sex, and the Jon who pays for it, are not guilty of anything, no crime has been commited. They are both consenting adults, it's the "better than thou" moralists that make these acts illegal. Yet they don't understand that they are the ones been immoral, by encarcerating consenting adults, for a victimless crime.

As for the Victorian middle Class? are you kidding? these people were not happy but stuck perhaps in a relationship they were not happy with, divorce was illegal, and there was promiscous sex during those times too Leo, you just don't read about it, you've not lived it, but its only "human nature" it's happened sinse the times of Jesus. Look at King David.

Godless.

 

[Leo Volont]

Societal-based reinforcement ....is very effective IF the
expectations of desired behavior are coherent, realistic, and non-
contradictive.

A splendid argument for a Traditional and Monolithic Culture. It is only amidst a system of Cultural Relativisms where anything is tolerated that contradictions and incoherencies arise.

A coherent and non-contradicting Moral Monolith does take time to arise. The Catholic High Middle Ages was a product of almost a Millenia of Moral Cultural Refinement.

 

[James R]

Nothing new, but we have Statistics and Demographics now and can study trends. We KNOW that there are more slutty amoral girls then ever before, in our Statistical Histories. The Trend is Up.

I don't think so.

 

[Bells]

Nothing new, but we have Statistics and Demographics now and can study trends. We KNOW that there are more slutty amoral girls then ever before, in our Statistical Histories. The Trend is Up.

Not to mention that we know that there are more perverted old men who continuously speak of girls and women as though they are sluts. Your perversion knows no bounds Leo. And to think that you have a daughter. I pity that poor child of yours. To have grown up with a father who sees women as you do.

 

[Leo Volont]

Not to mention that we know that there are more perverted old men who continuously speak of girls and women as though they are sluts. Your perversion knows no bounds Leo. And to think that you have a daughter. I pity that poor child of yours. To have grown up with a father who sees women as you do.

So I am perverted for having perspective. I am an old man. I knew the world when there was still some innocence left. I wish it were not so, but most every girl IS a slut. Is it NOT true that girls nowadays rather think they have the Worst Reputation of all their friends, if they AREN'T sexually active?
They are proud that they sleep around. On Television we see sitcoms where the Single Female Characters laugh at anybody who admits that they may have gone a few months without Sex, as though that is entirely unheard of among the Cool People.

Again, I recommend you get some perspective. The Shelves of Literature are still relatively full of Victorian Romances (they are cheap to publish because they are in the Public Domain, and they have a literary quality that remains unsurpassed). You will find the depiction of a Moral Society. Compared to that Society, which is almost within living memory, Modern Women with almost no exceptions are sluts. It is not my fault. I see it, but I did not make it happen. By defending them, you make it continue.

 

[James R]

Leo:

I wish it were not so, but most every girl IS a slut.

The evidence seems to be against you on that point.

Is it NOT true that girls nowadays rather think they have the Worst Reputation of all their friends, if they AREN'T sexually active?

Where do you get this stuff from? You must stop seeking out the naughty girls, Leo.

The Shelves of Literature are still relatively full of Victorian Romances (they are cheap to publish because they are in the Public Domain, and they have a literary quality that remains unsurpassed). You will find the depiction of a Moral Society.

Victorian society was no more moral than today's society. It is just that overt sexuality was frowned upon. But don't let that fool you. A lot went on behind closed doors.

Compared to that Society, which is almost within living memory, Modern Women with almost no exceptions are sluts.

Your nostalgia is touching, Leo, but perhaps it's time you took off the rose-coloured retro-goggles.

 

[Bells]

So I am perverted for having perspective. I am an old man. I knew the world when there was still some innocence left. I wish it were not so, but most every girl IS a slut. Is it NOT true that girls nowadays rather think they have the Worst Reputation of all their friends, if they AREN'T sexually active?

No it's not true Leo. You view women this way, yet you fail to take into account that boys are just the same if not worse in many cases. Not all girls sit there wanting to have sex with as many people as possible. You view women through your own skewed mentality.

They are proud that they sleep around. On Television we see sitcoms where the Single Female Characters laugh at anybody who admits that they may have gone a few months without Sex, as though that is entirely unheard of among the Cool People.

Yes Leo. Because everything that happens on TV and in sitcoms is so true and real and is so representative of the real world.

Again, I recommend you get some perspective.

I think it is you who needs to get not just some perspective, but a whole lot of perspective. You do not appear to know where fiction ends and fact begins.

The Shelves of Literature are still relatively full of Victorian Romances (they are cheap to publish because they are in the Public Domain, and they have a literary quality that remains unsurpassed). You will find the depiction of a Moral Society. Compared to that Society, which is almost within living memory, Modern Women with almost no exceptions are sluts. It is not my fault. I see it, but I did not make it happen.

Victorian romances? Leo, those books are known for the fact that sex simmers just under the surface. It is never spoken of directly, but indirectly. The moral society you speak of in these romances is only what your own fantasy wished to see. Your view of modern women as sluts shows that you live in a complete fantasy, where fiction has become reality. You do realise that if a woman is a slut, then men are just as guilty of the crime you accuse women of?

By defending them, you make it continue.

Hmm? Surely you would not be so ignorant as to call me a slut, now would you?

 

[Godless]

Compared to that Society, which is almost within living memory, Modern Women with almost no exceptions are sluts. It is not my fault. I see it, but I did not make it happen. By defending them, you make it continue.

And you make this assumption by the VERY few that you've might of had? Your heart been broken Leo, that you persist to take it out on women. And why the hell not can a woman enjoy herself sexually for the mere pleasure of living?

If you were to get laid every week-end by different women would you call yourself a MALE SLUT?. Or a stud? (doubt that you are getting any) Perhaps this is what what you need.

Go get laid Leo, and quit bashing women. Or are you so old that perhaps you've got problems in that department?. Then for god's sake man go get some Viagra and get a pice of ass.

Godless.

 

[Leo Volont]

Leo:


Your nostalgia is touching, Leo, but perhaps it's time you took off the rose-coloured retro-goggles.

I can't help to feel I am being lectured by a seventeen year old geek who didn't receive much of a liberal arts education. You simply do not have any idea of how things used to be.

 

[Leo Volont]

Victorian romances? Leo, those books are known for the fact that sex simmers just under the surface. It is never spoken of directly, but indirectly. The moral society you speak of in these romances is only what your own fantasy wished to see. Your view of modern women as sluts shows that you live in a complete fantasy, where fiction has become reality. You do realise that if a woman is a slut, then men are just as guilty of the crime you accuse women of?

George Eliot, and Thomas Hardy are not 'sex simmers' ... you can therefore confine your reading to them. Strictly speaking the Bronte Sisters (Charlotte, Emily, and Anne) were not Victorian, or just barely. Jane Austin was definitely pre-Victorian, but the Moral View is exactly what I would like you to see. Read them. With only one exception, all these authors are Women.

 

[Bells]

You simply do not have any idea of how things used to be.

And you simply have no idea of how things actually are.

 

[philocrazy]

Godless(quote)
Then for god's sake man go get some Viagra and get a pice of ass.
----------------------------------------------------------------
do you or dont you believe in God Godless
just letting you know that you make yourself look like
an asshole when you mention God as if he existed

Philosopher Philocrazy

 

[philocrazy]

Hi Bells tell me about it (asses)