Can you really blame these people?
- Thread starter Norsefire
- Start date
One is crime, one is war. Despite your constant and unrelenting efforts to the contrary, the two are not the same.
War is crime.
Did the greatest war in US history, the Civil War, kill people that were far away?
Did they drop bombs on weddings from 35,000 feet?
Well, Orville and Wilber hadn't gotten around to inventing the plane yet. So bombing from 35,000 feet wasn't an option. General Sherman did devastate a broad swath of the confederacy\ during his "march to the sea"
no these people are idiots. doing this doesn't help anything. waiting until they get out of prison and then killing them in some cruel way would be more suitable I think.
They weren't.
That's the point.
That's what makes it wrong.
That's what makes them barbarians.
That's why it is not understandable.
That's why it is not forgivable.
That's why it is not justice.
That's why they deserve to be charged with assault and battery.
That's why yes, I CAN blame them, and no, I wouldn't have done the same.
Not to mention the cowardice of beating a handcuffed person.
Bells
Staff member
barbaians. There trials will be short
I don't know. If that was my child who was killed, I'd be the one jumping that barrier and tearing his eyes out with my bare hands.
I can understand why they are that angry and why they want revenge. I've seen some pretty horrible things in my time and I take my hat off to those who are able to sit in those courtrooms and listen to the grisly details of what was done to their loved one's. I don't think I could do it. If someone hurt or killed my children, husband, parents or other family member, I know I wouldn't be able to sit there and listen and watch them in the docks, especially the ones who smirk, laugh, joke and act like the arseholes they are.
Bells
Staff member
I'm saying if it was the perpetrator. For example, if I see someone killing my child(ren) and he/she is arrested before I could get my hands on them... come court day, I would have to be restrained.
It's easy to say 'they're barbarians, etc'. But when you see the family of the deceased and you see the pain they are suffering.. you can't blame them for being angry and wanting to cause pain to the individual(s) who took away their loved one. I've spent many hours with people who have been in that kind of pain and in some cases, I would not have blamed them for wanting to cause the bastard, who harmed their loved one, pain. I can fully understand their anger and frankly, I sympathise with them. The greater majority of them are able to remain composed.. I personally don't think I could do it. Especially when you get the perpetrators who laugh or start giggling when details of their crimes are read out in court. I've had to restrain myself in some of those cases. So have the barristers and the police officers who handle those cases as well. If it's that bad for us, imagine the horror the family goes through. In such instances, can you blame them for jumping that barrier? I don't.
The individula(s) who they believe took away their loved one.
I have also seen people lash out and get "vengence" on people who were innocent.
I feel for their loss, but this is not the answer.
If they do know (for a fact, not basing their judgements on "I just know it") then, yes, I can understand it - though I don't necessarily agree with it.
If I caught someone in the act of causing that type of harm to a loved one, they would not make it to prison, unless they killed me too.
bells im surprised at you. Your the lawyer here after all, either you belive in the law or you dont. NO one gets a free pass or sociaty collaps and these guy wasnt even found guilty. What happened to the prusumption of innocence?
Either you accept the law and the political proccess or you dont and we go back to "the king is above the law", ie arbitry, dictatorship.
There is a reason why the family and\or the victom have no place in the justice system, and its because its not justice, its revenge.
You might as well advocate marfia killings because thats where that sort of attiude leads. look at the gang land killings in melbourne, half of them were revenge for other killings.
No bells i hold no sympathy for them at all
Either you accept the law and the political proccess or you dont and we go back to "the king is above the law", ie arbitry, dictatorship.
There is a reason why the family and\or the victom have no place in the justice system, and its because its not justice, its revenge.
You might as well advocate marfia killings because thats where that sort of attiude leads. look at the gang land killings in melbourne, half of them were revenge for other killings.
No bells i hold no sympathy for them at all
Bells
Staff member
Yep. I am as human and savage as the next person.
Do I believe in the law and its ability to provide justice? No.
But I can assure you, if I saw someone killing or severely harming my children or other loved one's, I would not think "hmmmm.. he will have to go to court and then I shall see justice done". No.. My first thought and actions would be to tear their limbs off and slap them in the face with it.
On the contrary. The victim and the family has a huge role and place in the justice system. You're telling me testimony from the victim has no place in a trial? Ya.. right..
You're telling me if you are faced with your child or wife's killer, you'd not want to rip the skin from their face and make them feel the pain they caused your loved one? You're telling me if you saw someone killing your child, you'd not harm them or want to harm them in revenge, but call the police and convince yourself that the justice system works? Ya right..
If I saw someone harming or in the process of killing a loved one... One_Raven put it best:
And believe it or not, I don't believe in the death penalty, because there is the presumption or doubt that the person could be innocent. But if I caught someone harming a loved one or a small child (eg, rape, torture, etc) and I caught them in the act, I'd probably kill them myself. And yes. That does make me hypocritical and as savage as the average person. Being a lawyer means I know the failures and weaknesses of the justice system and I can assure you, I would never trust my child's killer to not walk out in a year or two because of a deal.
i agree with bells. i'm not into revenge or violence, i just don't know if i could stop myself if i saw the person who killed my child. grief doesn't justify it, but i think its understandable.
as for 'he hasn't been found guilty' - so what, that's just someone else's opinion. its possible the victim's family knows whether he is or not.
if someone killed my gf, depending on the circumstances(edit: their motivations, state of mind, how certain i am it was them), i'd want to kill them. it'd be important to ensure there wasn't a resulting blood feud though.
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bells i wasnt talking about the families testimony during the trial or the sentancing but there is an eposode of SG1 actually where they show what happens if the family is given the power over the courts.
In that episode the injured party acts as judge and jury and thats just not right.
Do i think the justice system works all the time?
hell no
do i think it works better than vigilanty justice (what your advocating?) YES.
Now if you want to advocate for an inquistorial system of justice rather than an advorsiarial fine but NO justice system on the planet will alow you to just go and kill who you THINK should die.
In fact in the US this sort of murder gets the death pennelty.
That being said would i try to save someone if i saw them being atacked. Of course i would, i would do everything in my power to restrain them until the cops arived. More importatly than that i would try to treat there victom of course because thats my job.
Before you advocate for vigilanty justice bells i think YOU need to reread the lindy chamberlain case
In that episode the injured party acts as judge and jury and thats just not right.
Do i think the justice system works all the time?
hell no
do i think it works better than vigilanty justice (what your advocating?) YES.
Now if you want to advocate for an inquistorial system of justice rather than an advorsiarial fine but NO justice system on the planet will alow you to just go and kill who you THINK should die.
In fact in the US this sort of murder gets the death pennelty.
That being said would i try to save someone if i saw them being atacked. Of course i would, i would do everything in my power to restrain them until the cops arived. More importatly than that i would try to treat there victom of course because thats my job.
Before you advocate for vigilanty justice bells i think YOU need to reread the lindy chamberlain case
Bells
Staff member
Where was I advocating vigilante justice? What? So my saying that I can understand and sympathise with the relatives of the victims when they want to beat the crap out of the person who took away their loved one's, I am instantly advocating vigilante justice?
On the contrary. If you walk into your house and you find someone killing your child and you kill that person, I doubt a single court on this planet would convict you.
Uh huh. How can I put this.. If I walked in on someone killing my child, I would try to restrain them by tearing their arms off, slapping them in the face with it until the police arrived. If they died in the meantime, so be it. I go by this belief.. harm or kill my child in that kind of fashion, then this whole planet will not be big enough to hide from me. And yes, that makes me savage and barbaric.. and that's fine.
I have read and studied that case in detail. Is she guilty? No, I personally do not think so.
Does not mean I advocate the public grabbing their pitchforks and torches and marching on the home of the accused. I believe I have made that quite clear. But I doubt a single person on this earth would do nothing to their child's or loved one's killer if they caught them in the act, and simply called the police. It's easy to say but how easy is it to do? Do you really think you wouldn't beat the crap out of someone that killed your child and you saw them do it or walked in on them as they did it? Sorry, but I don't believe you.
bells of course your advocating it, your saying its ok to beat up a guy who hasnt been found guilty IN A COURT ROOM. No one has said they were at the house and saw him do it, no one here knows wether that happened or not because norse never posted a link to the case
Not to mention that there is another thread around here where a rape victom acused the guy who happened to be on TV (talking about how unreliable eye witness testimony is) while she was raped. The irony of that is astounding