Can one understand Islam without knowing what 'Allah' is?

[Cris]

Sufi,

Is it possible to truly understand Islam without knowing what 'Allah' is?

I believe you have the question reversed. Allah is entirely defined by Islam, so to know what is meant by the concept of Allah one must study Islam. In an identical manner one cannot fully comprehend the nature of Sherlock Holmes without reading and studying the works by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

 

[surenderer]

Sufi,



I believe you have the question reversed. Allah is entirely defined by Islam, so to know what is meant by the concept of Allah one must study Islam. In an identical manner one cannot fully comprehend the nature of Sherlock Holmes without reading and studying the works by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

Agreed

 

[Sufi]

I think understand perfectly what you're trying to say Sufi.

I wish I, too, could understand perfectly what you're trying to say wesmorris..

joking

thnx for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Sufi]

Personal insults? that ok....please refute what I say then.....all I ask of you is to use the Koran (surahs ayats ) to back up what you say...Notice pretty much anything I say I back up with Koran surahs while everything you say you back up with some book that you a promoting

Why insult? We all once had to do our homework

Then please enlighten me where what I said is wrong...I challenge you to prove me wrong in what I say...Remember you dont practice Islam you practice Sufism

You are still trying to throw slanders???

As you have a good knowledge, I think you can find easily what is in the Koran what is not without anyone else's references, can't you!

Yet, for a change and for a start, reread the Surah of Oneness (ikhlas) from the Koran and see that you cannot match Allah to anything else such as a 'god' or whatever other than Allah.

 

[surenderer]

Why insult? We all once did our homework



You are still trying to throw slanders???

As you have a good knowledge, I think you can find easily what is in the Koran what is not without anyone else's references, can't you!

Yet, for a change and for a start, reread the Surah of Oneness (ikhlas) from the Koran and see that you cannot match Allah to anything else such as a 'god' or whatever other than Allah.

Yet, for a change and for a start, reread the Surah of Oneness (ikhlas) from the Koran and see that you cannot match Allah to anything else such as a 'god' or whatever other than Allah.

[/QUOTE]


I only mean Sufi that if you are going to use the Koran as reference then you should give the Surah's that support your claims. Not everyone on these boards know the Koran. Notice how most other muslim on these boards quote Ayats or Surahs when they talk of the Koran

Yet, for a change and for a start, reread the Surah of Oneness (ikhlas) from the Koran and see that you cannot match Allah to anything else such as a 'god' or whatever other than Allah.[/

Surah of oneness? dont know that one but I do know that nothing compares to God.but to say that God is in "all of us" is a dangerous way of thinking. God is seperate from his creation Sufi all muslims know that


The Opening
The Cow
The Family of Imran
The Women
The Dinner Table
The Cattle
The Elevated Places
The Accessions
The Immunity
Jonah
The Holy Prophet
Yusuf
The Thunder
Abraham
The Rock
The Bee
The Children of Israel
The Cave
Marium
Ta Ha
The Prophets
The Pilgrimage
The Believers
The Light
The Distinction
The Poets
The Ant
The Narratives
The Spider
The Romans
Luqman
The Adoration
The Clans
The Saba
The Originator
Yasin
The Rangers
Suad
The Companions
The Believer
Ha Mim
The Counsel
Ornaments of Gold
The Smoke
The Kneeling
The Sandhills
Muhammad
The Victory
The Chambers
Qaf
The Scatterers
The Mountain
The Star
The Moon
The Beneficent
The Event
The Iron
She Who Pleaded
The Banishment
The Examined One
The Ranks
The Congregation
The Hypocrites
The Mutual Deceit
The Divorce
The Prohibition
The Kingdom
The Pen
The Inevitable
The Ways of Ascent
Nuh
The Jinn
The Wrapped Up
The Covered One
The Resurrection
Time
The Sent Forth
The Great Event
The Draggers
He Frowned
The Folded Up
The Cleaving
The Deceivers in Measuring
The Rending Asunder
The Celestial Stations
The Nightly Visitant
The Most High
The Overwhelming Calamity
The Daybreak
The City
The Sun
The Night
The Brightness
The Expansion
The Fig
The Clot
The Grandeur
The Clear Evidence
The Quaking
The Chargers
The Calamity
Vying in Abundance
The Age
The Slanderer
The Elephant
The Qureaish
Alms
The Abundance of Good
The Disbelievers
The Help
The Flame
The Unity
The Dawn
The People


Those are the 114 Surahs in the Koran which are you reffering too?

 

[everneo]

Let me tell you why I am somewhat upset by Sufism (or at least the fact that they claim to be muslims) first of all its the very name.......True Muslims should be content with the name "Muslims" given to them by Almighty Allah as he says: which means,


"He has chosen you (to conform to His religion) and has imposed no difficulty upon you in religion, the religion of your father Ibrahim. He named you 'Muslims' both before (in the preceding Divine Scriptures) and in this Book." (22.78)


If Sufis insist that they are Muslims, then what is the sense of identifying themselves with Sufism rather than with Islam. The word "Sufism" was not familiar to those who lived in the first and the best three generations of as-Salaf as-Salih (the pious predecessors) who were commanded by Allah the Exalted and His Messenger Muhammad (s.a.w.s)

Sufi order had not started with that name as such or as a seperate sect. From what i understand Suf is the Arabic word for wool, in the sense of "cloak", referring to the simple cloaks the original Sufis wore. Who strived for simplicity and service to fellow human beings.

As for the orgins of sufism, you can find the gnostic words from the Prophet and Ali.

The Holy Prophet and Sufism

The roots of Sufism lie embedded in Islam itself. There are numerous passages in the Holy Quran which are of a mystical character. The Holy Prophet of Islam (peace be on him) himself displayed mystical inclinations and he very often retired to the cave of Hirah for the purpose of devotions, meditation and contemplation. The Holy Prophet was recipient of two types of revelations, one embodied in the Holy Quran, and the other that illuminated his heart. The former was meant for all, the latter for a selected few whose hearts could be illuminated with the Divine Light. The knowledge of the Holy Prophet was thus book knowledge (ilm-i-Safina), and heart knowledge (ilm-i-Sina). Ali got this heart knowledge from the Holy Prophet. It is related that after the Ascension, the Holy Prophet awarded a mantle to Ali which led to the illumination of his heart.


Communion with God

Very often, Ali would sob the whole night in prayers to God, and God would reward him with a glimpse of the Inner Vision. According to Ali, the highest purpose of knowledge is the awakening of latent spiritual faculties whereby one is enabled to discover his true and inner self. It is to this inner self that God reveals Himself when the self disappears in the vision of the "All Absorbing Reality." Ali often observed that man could have the joy and wonder of communion with God if one abandoned pride, disciplined the flesh, overcame the lust and submitted to the Will of God. He exhorted the people in his various sermons not to indulge in the gross licentiousness, which had characterized Arab society in the "Days of Ignorance." But should instead live in piety and simplicity as enjoined by Islam. Ali said, "Man is a wave in the boundless Sea of God. As long as man's vision is clouded by ignorance and sensuality he will consider himself a separate entity, different from God. But when the veil between him and God is lifted, he will then know what he really is, the wave will then merge with the ocean". Ali held that enlightenment is needed so that one can first get to know himself. Only then would he get to know God. Ali held that to this end religious exercises must be practiced. Sufism for which Ali stood derived its strength from the Shariah. Ali preached that any form of knowledge which failed to show the Infinite Reality in man was useless, because it could not fill that vacuum of which the aching soul of every individual was so pathetically conscious. Ali wanted men to be virtuous as virtues purify the soul, and it is only the purified soul that can be the recipient of spiritual enlightenment. This is the doctrine of Inner Light, which was enunciated by Ali as the core of Sufi thought. Ali is accordingly acknowledged as the "Father of Sufism" and the "Prince of Saints".

- http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/79_ali_bin_talib.htm

The above site is neither sufi nor shia.

Ironically the orthodox sunni as well as shia clergy persecuted sufi masters on misunderstanding.

 

[Sufi]

The Disbelievers
The Help
The Flame
The Unity
The Dawn
The People

Those are the 114 Surahs in the Koran which are you reffering too?

Ooh surrenderer!.. what is this?..

The Unity --> also known as Surah Ikhlas, Surah of Sincerity, Surah of Oneness, Surah of Purification, etc....
which says "Say: ALLAH is that is AHAD, ALLAH is that is SAMAD..." without any mention of god (ilah), at all...

What don't you go to do your homework... or read some other books than what you have been conditioned to, instead of doing that?

 

[everneo]

Like many other Sufi doctrines, pantheism is adopted from man-made religions and philosophies, as confirmed by S. R. Sharda in his book, Sufi Thought

"Sufi literature of the post-Timur period shows a significant change in thought content. It is pantheistic. After the fall of Muslim orthodoxy from power at the centre of India for about a century, due to the invasion of Timur, the Sufi became free from the control of the Muslim orthodoxy and consorted with Hindu saints, who influenced them to an amazing extent. The Sufi adopted Monism and wifely devotion from the Vaishnava Vedantic school and Bhakti and Yogic practices from the Vaishnava Vedantic school. By that time, the popularity of the Vedantic pantheism among the Sufis had reached its zenith."

Actually, Sufism in Indian sub-continet arrived long before the medival monster Timur (Timur, the Lame aka Tamarlane) arrived who ransacked Baghdad as well as Delhi. In delhi he massacred millions of hindus and thousands of muslims and justified that was the will of Allah. The orthodoxy could not control him and in some instances they backed similar fanatics who massacred hindus, buddhist monks in the name of Allah. With that backdrop, the ordinary muslims, fed up with such show of barbarism, looked up to Sufis who preached service brotherhood among humans. In indian sub-continent it was not just the sword alone that converted thousands to islam, but the sufi saints who attracted millions towards islam.

If sufism had adopted hindu bakti tradition what about the sufi saints, like, Hz. Abdul Khadir Gilani, Baghdad who most unlikely knew about hindu traditions ? The fact is, in india, culturally, the devotion of wife/lover towards husband precedes everything including her children. That could be the reason why the sufis in indian sub-continent practiced similar but more powerful and spiritual devotion towards the merciful and the only great, God.

Besides, hindu vedantic thoughts - about a single God and the 'veiled illusion' that 'seperate' the rest of universe including humans - nearly fit well with the gnostic descriptions of Allah and the creations that are separated by a 'veil' from God.

The sufi-hindu connection could very well be mistaken as adoptation of each other , but infact they have a similar & common spiritual undercurrent in theory. You could see thousands of muslims as well as hindus in india visiting the sufi shrines on pilgrimage.

 

[Sufi]

My initial question was: Can one understand Islam without knowing what 'Allah' is?

We are able to see now from a few of the above posts how it can be deviated from the original by people who consider and present themselves as muslims, to even completely opposite beliefs because of lack of true knowledge, because of standards of judgments and social conditionings and insistence on ignorance...

I think this a very important issue that should be reflected on, as belief in Allah is the base of Islam. It is the fountainhead of knowledge.

How far can one understand Islam and believe Islam truly without knowing what 'Allah' is?

 

[surenderer]

Ooh surrenderer!.. what is this?..

The Unity --> also known as Surah Ikhlas, Surah of Sincerity, Surah of Oneness, Surah of Purification, etc....
which says "Say: ALLAH is that is AHAD, ALLAH is that is SAMAD..." without any mention of god (ilah), at all...

What don't you go to do your homework... or read some other books than what you have been conditioned to, instead of doing that?

Sufi I am only trying to understand what you are saying which is why I asked you which Surah you were refering too.....What books should I stop reading that I've been conditioned too?.....The Koran? thats the only book I have quoted this debate

 

[surenderer]

Sufi order had not started with that name as such or as a seperate sect. From what i understand Suf is the Arabic word for wool, in the sense of "cloak", referring to the simple cloaks the original Sufis wore. Who strived for simplicity and service to fellow human beings.

As for the orgins of sufism, you can find the gnostic words from the Prophet and Ali.

The Holy Prophet and Sufism

The roots of Sufism lie embedded in Islam itself. There are numerous passages in the Holy Quran which are of a mystical character. The Holy Prophet of Islam (peace be on him) himself displayed mystical inclinations and he very often retired to the cave of Hirah for the purpose of devotions, meditation and contemplation. The Holy Prophet was recipient of two types of revelations, one embodied in the Holy Quran, and the other that illuminated his heart. The former was meant for all, the latter for a selected few whose hearts could be illuminated with the Divine Light. The knowledge of the Holy Prophet was thus book knowledge (ilm-i-Safina), and heart knowledge (ilm-i-Sina). Ali got this heart knowledge from the Holy Prophet. It is related that after the Ascension, the Holy Prophet awarded a mantle to Ali which led to the illumination of his heart.


Communion with God

Very often, Ali would sob the whole night in prayers to God, and God would reward him with a glimpse of the Inner Vision. According to Ali, the highest purpose of knowledge is the awakening of latent spiritual faculties whereby one is enabled to discover his true and inner self. It is to this inner self that God reveals Himself when the self disappears in the vision of the "All Absorbing Reality." Ali often observed that man could have the joy and wonder of communion with God if one abandoned pride, disciplined the flesh, overcame the lust and submitted to the Will of God. He exhorted the people in his various sermons not to indulge in the gross licentiousness, which had characterized Arab society in the "Days of Ignorance." But should instead live in piety and simplicity as enjoined by Islam. Ali said, "Man is a wave in the boundless Sea of God. As long as man's vision is clouded by ignorance and sensuality he will consider himself a separate entity, different from God. But when the veil between him and God is lifted, he will then know what he really is, the wave will then merge with the ocean". Ali held that enlightenment is needed so that one can first get to know himself. Only then would he get to know God. Ali held that to this end religious exercises must be practiced. Sufism for which Ali stood derived its strength from the Shariah. Ali preached that any form of knowledge which failed to show the Infinite Reality in man was useless, because it could not fill that vacuum of which the aching soul of every individual was so pathetically conscious. Ali wanted men to be virtuous as virtues purify the soul, and it is only the purified soul that can be the recipient of spiritual enlightenment. This is the doctrine of Inner Light, which was enunciated by Ali as the core of Sufi thought. Ali is accordingly acknowledged as the "Father of Sufism" and the "Prince of Saints".

- http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/79_ali_bin_talib.htm

The above site is neither sufi nor shia.

Ironically the orthodox sunni as well as shia clergy persecuted sufi masters on misunderstanding.

Sufi order had not started with that name as such or as a seperate sect. From what i understand Suf is the Arabic word for wool, in the sense of "cloak", referring to the simple cloaks the original Sufis wore.

True as I have stated in an earlier post. But one would ask why they seperate themselves from other muslims when the Koran strictly prohibits it? True Muslims should be content with the name "Muslims" given to them by Almighty Allah as he says: which means,

"He has chosen you (to conform to His religion) and has imposed no difficulty upon you in religion, the religion of your father Ibrahim. He named you 'Muslims' both before (in the preceding Divine Scriptures) and in this Book." (22.78)

Sufis belong to the Illumist school of philosophy which holds that knowledge and awareness is brought about in the soul by spiritual exercises. Islam holds that one can achieve true knowledge and awareness through the acts of worship that exist in the Quran and Sunnah.

The Holy Prophet was recipient of two types of revelations, one embodied in the Holy Quran, and the other that illuminated his heart. The former was meant for all, the latter for a selected few whose hearts could be illuminated with the Divine Light

Sorry not buying it.... ( i ask again for surahs which confirm this)but it explains why Sufi's call themselves that instead of Muslims because no muslim believes that... These teachers of Sufism will often claim that since they have advanced to the inner and hidden meaning of Islam, they no longer need to pray or fast, something that not even the Prophets were excused from.

 

[everneo]

True as I have stated in an earlier post. But one would ask why they seperate themselves from other muslims when the Koran strictly prohibits it? True Muslims should be content with the name "Muslims" given to them by Almighty Allah as he says: which means,

"He has chosen you (to conform to His religion) and has imposed no difficulty upon you in religion, the religion of your father Ibrahim. He named you 'Muslims' both before (in the preceding Divine Scriptures) and in this Book." (22.78)

I did not remember reading any sufi saint calling himself sufi not muslim.
Calling someone a 'sufi' implies that he/she is a muslim and holds the 'sufi' view of Quran/Sunna.

Sufis belong to the Illumist school of philosophy which holds that knowledge and awareness is brought about in the soul by spiritual exercises. Islam holds that one can achieve true knowledge and awareness through the acts of worship that exist in the Quran and Sunnah.

Prayer, fasting, zakat & Haj are all spiritual exersises only, right ? All the generations have been doing this and why the prophet said the first 3 generations were the best ? The acts of worship accquire new dimension when the heart is illuminated by the self realization and realisation of who/what is Allah.

Here is a fine example, from Hazrat Ali :

The Worship of Freemen:

A group of people worshipped God out of desire for reward; this is the worship of traders. Another group worshipped God out of fear; this is the worship of slaves. Yet another group worshipped God out of gratitude; this is the worship of freemen.

My God, I have not worshipped Thee out of fear of Thy Hell and out of greed for Thy Paradise; but I found Thee worthy of worship, and so I worshipped Thee.

- Ali, from Nahj al Balagha (The peak of Eloquence)

Sorry not buying it.... ( i ask again for surahs which confirm this)but it explains why Sufi's call themselves that instead of Muslims because no muslim believes that... These teachers of Sufism will often claim that since they have advanced to the inner and hidden meaning of Islam, they no longer need to pray or fast, something that not even the Prophets were excused from.

You are not ready to buy it. That is OK. The mention of 'inner & hidden meaning' might attract instant rejection by orthodoxy ; but what about the degree of understanding & personal, subjective experiences as a criteria to get the full idea of what is said in the quran & sunnah .

Do you think that :

the understanding of Quran & sunnah (each & every line for that matter) by (i) any orthodox cleric and (ii) by Prophet, Umar and Ali are the same ?

You seem to assess sufism by the adherents who randomly claim such hidden knowledge. Perhaps you should restrict sufism with the teachings of sufi saints, the really enlightened ones among the sufis. These sufi saints never excused themselves from prayer/fast/zakat ; infact they 'lived' on them rather than following a schedule.

 

[Sufi]

God is seperate from his creation, all muslims know that.

Ali said, "As long as man's vision is clouded by ignorance and sensuality he will consider himself a separate entity, different from God.

You are not guilty surenderer. This is the case for almost all muslims, they do not bother to make investigation and think about what they are asked to believe.

I regret to say that the muslim world, generally speaking, has ignored ALLAH as revealed by Mohammed (pbuh), and is also in a state of believing in a separate Sky-God --some sort of GOD who resides somewhere in the SKY.

While they carry on countless never-ending disputes about the formal aspects of the matter, the essential principle of Islam: the belief in ALLAH and in the themes defined in Amantu, are not touched at all. So, countless misconceptions are being considered as facts, upon which many new ideas are being developed.

The Western world, in particular, has been approaching the matter from a completely wrong point of view, and has in fact been moving away from the principal goal of Islam by assuming that the name “Allah” refers to a superior form of God which they have learned about from the past…

Unfortunately, we have so far been unable to truly comprehend what Mohammed aleyhessalaam really meant when he entered into the subject of religion by saying that “no god who was ever worshipped” has ever existed; but nevertheless we must make every attempt to understand correctly what is referred to as “ALLAH”.

click to read more

 

[surenderer]

I did not remember reading any sufi saint calling himself sufi not muslim.
Calling someone a 'sufi' implies that he/she is a muslim and holds the 'sufi' view of Quran/Sunna.



Prayer, fasting, zakat & Haj are all spiritual exersises only, right ? All the generations have been doing this and why the prophet said the first 3 generations were the best ? The acts of worship accquire new dimension when the heart is illuminated by the self realization and realisation of who/what is Allah.

Here is a fine example, from Hazrat Ali :

The Worship of Freemen:

A group of people worshipped God out of desire for reward; this is the worship of traders. Another group worshipped God out of fear; this is the worship of slaves. Yet another group worshipped God out of gratitude; this is the worship of freemen.

My God, I have not worshipped Thee out of fear of Thy Hell and out of greed for Thy Paradise; but I found Thee worthy of worship, and so I worshipped Thee.

- Ali, from Nahj al Balagha (The peak of Eloquence)



You are not ready to buy it. That is OK. The mention of 'inner & hidden meaning' might attract instant rejection by orthodoxy ; but what about the degree of understanding & personal, subjective experiences as a criteria to get the full idea of what is said in the quran & sunnah .

Do you think that :

the understanding of Quran & sunnah (each & every line for that matter) by (i) any orthodox cleric and (ii) by Prophet, Umar and Ali are the same ?

You seem to assess sufism by the adherents who randomly claim such hidden knowledge. Perhaps you should restrict sufism with the teachings of sufi saints, the really enlightened ones among the sufis. These sufi saints never excused themselves from prayer/fast/zakat ; infact they 'lived' on them rather than following a schedule.

Unfortunatly my time is short let me just say that this is why God prohibits in the Koran for muslims to create "sects" or "cults" within Islam. So with that being the case their is only right and wrong in this situation. Now "mainstream" Islam is the same Islam practiced by muslims as instructed by the Prophet(pbuh) 1400 years ago. These same muslims try to live and pray in their lives the same way that Adam(pbuh) David(pbuh) Jesus(pbuh) etc..... all did. Then their is Sufism which by your own admition(sp?) changed the message (against the Prophet's message) created a secular sect(against the Prophet) and called themselves "Sufi's"(against the Prophet) they claim to have knowledge of things only known to the Prophet thus putting themselves on the same level as him. Their is nothing "random" about Sufis claiming hidden knowledge....it is a requirement to be a Sufi....and to live the life of prayer, zakat, hajii etc.....doesnt make a Sufi special because 1.5 billion other muslims try to live this life also

 

[surenderer]

You are not guilty surenderer. This is the case for almost all muslims, they do not bother to make investigation and think about what they are asked to believe.

I regret to say that the muslim world, generally speaking, has ignored ALLAH as revealed by Mohammed (pbuh), and is also in a state of believing in a separate Sky-God --some sort of GOD who resides somewhere in the SKY.

While they carry on countless never-ending disputes about the formal aspects of the matter, the essential principle of Islam: the belief in ALLAH and in the themes defined in Amantu, are not touched at all. So, countless misconceptions are being considered as facts, upon which many new ideas are being developed.

The Western world, in particular, has been approaching the matter from a completely wrong point of view, and has in fact been moving away from the principal goal of Islam by assuming that the name “Allah” refers to a superior form of God which they have learned about from the past…

Unfortunately, we have so far been unable to truly comprehend what Mohammed aleyhessalaam really meant when he entered into the subject of religion by saying that “no god who was ever worshipped” has ever existed; but nevertheless we must make every attempt to understand correctly what is referred to as “ALLAH”.

click to read more

Again Sufi why do you post your threads with links to books other than the Koran? you accuse me of being "brainwashed" yet you never quote the Koran surahs, have no knowledge of Arabic nor can even back up your claims with Koranic ayats....I am really trying to see Sufi's as something other than "Kufir's"

 

[everneo]

Unfortunatly my time is short let me just say that this is why God prohibits in the Koran for muslims to create "sects" or "cults" within Islam.

There was a mention of 72 sects by the Prophet. May be the biggest cult would get more authenticity as mainstream. .

Now "mainstream" Islam is the same Islam practiced by muslims as instructed by the Prophet(pbuh) 1400 years ago.

Are you sure ? I take your word for the time being.

These same muslims try to live and pray in their lives the same way that Adam(pbuh) David(pbuh) Jesus(pbuh) etc..... all did.

The psalms of David, Gospel of Jesus did not show 'mainstream'
islamic view much.

Then their is Sufism which by your own admition(sp?) changed the message (against the Prophet's message) created a secular sect(against the Prophet) and called themselves "Sufi's"(against the Prophet) they claim to have knowledge of things only known to the Prophet thus putting themselves on the same level as him.

Where is my admission to these ?!

Their is nothing "random" about Sufis claiming hidden knowledge....it is a requirement to be a Sufi....

..to have possessing such hidden knowledge ? by self or by the sufi saints ?

..and to live the life of prayer, zakat, hajii etc.....doesnt make a Sufi special because 1.5 billion other muslims try to live this life also

Hmm.. you only said they don't do that any more. If they do that they are not special but like other muslims ?

Since you don't have time, me too put one liners. Will see you later, nice to discuss with you.

 

[Sufi]

Sufism is "deep spiritual understanding of Islam". It is not and cannot be limited to a cult or sect.

Perhaps, Sufism can be called as "Islamic Mysticism", which is a devotion to live under the guidance of the teachings of Mohammed (pbuh) --who confirmed all scriptures before him-- to experience the truth that the Koran informs.

 

[surenderer]

Perhaps, Sufism can be called as "Islamic Mysticism", which is a devotion to live under the guidance of the teachings of Mohammed (pbuh) --who confirmed all scriptures before him-- to experience the truth that the Koran informs.

[/QUOTE]


But why call yourselves anything other than Muslims who practice Islam? All Muslims are supposed to live under the teachings of the Prophet(pbuh) and follow the Koran...if you do follow the Koran then you MUST know that this is true:


[21.92] Surely this Islam is your religion, one religion (only), and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me.

[5.3]This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.



So why create Sufism??

 

[surenderer]

There was a mention of 72 sects by the Prophet. May be the biggest cult would get more authenticity as mainstream. .

Ya but the Prophet(pbuh) said that the 72 sects (if you count the mainstream one then 73) would be in hellfire.....when he was asked which one would be saved he said it would be the ones that worshipped like him and his followers

The psalms of David, Gospel of Jesus did not show 'mainstream'

Huh?? The torah and the Psalms (gospel of Jesus is unknown) speak only of love for God and prayer and "submitting" to Gods will helping less fortunate etc....

Where is my admission to these ?!

You said:

Calling someone a 'sufi' implies that he/she is a muslim and holds the 'sufi' view of Quran/Sunna.

What is "Sufi view" how is that different than any other muslims view?? thats creating division and thus sects

 

[everneo]

Ya but the Prophet(pbuh) said that the 72 sects (if you count the mainstream one then 73) would be in hellfire.....when he was asked which one would be saved he said it would be the ones that worshipped like him and his followers

72 all inclusive. Every sect claims that they are the true followers of the Prophet.

Huh?? The torah and the Psalms (gospel of Jesus is unknown) speak only of love for God and prayer and "submitting" to Gods will helping less fortunate etc....

Sufis also do the same if not better in that than the orthodoxy.

What is "Sufi view" how is that different than any other muslims view?? thats creating division and thus sects

Sufis still call themselves as muslims as much as sunnis, shias, wahabis, salafis call themselves muslims. Why Sufi Vs other muslims argument coming up ? Is there any sufi christian, sufi hindu or sufi buddhist ? What is the problem with accepting sufis as an order of muslims (not a sect or cult) ?