Can one understand Islam without knowing what 'Allah' is?
- Thread starter Sufi
- Start date
James R said:
What you express as "what Allah wants" is a metaphorical way of explaining some facts. But because of our preconception of god, we are often fooled into taking it literally and imagine the orders of someone else to obey.
Allah is not a god out-there who wants something from his creatures.Allah wants means: "what is REQUIRED to READ (iqra) the laws that we are subject to and what is REQUIRED to protect ourselves in this life and in the hereafter within the conditions of this universal SYSTEM...
Whatever we do in this sense is for our own profit, they do not reach to a god out there, no matter how we name him. And whatever we neglect is our own loss only.
Allah can be considered all-powerful whole oneness, yet when we take it as a god, knowingly or unknowingly we separate it from ourselves and fall into the duality of me and a separate entity; and begin to imagine what that god wants from us.. whereas ther is no one out there who wants anything from us or who may reward us in return of our obedience...
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
What a sad thing for a muslims to say Sufi
but actually it goes perfectly with what I was challegeing you on in our debate on another thread(for those who dont know I stated that Sufism changes the Koran to fit their needs instead of vice versa) Sufi if this is true then please explain this Ayats:And Allah has brought you out from the wombs of your mothers while you know nothing. And He gave you hearing, sight and hearts that you might give thanks (to Allah)." [16:78]
"And I (Allah) created not the Jinn and mankind except they should worship Me (alone). 51:56
"And strive hard in Allah's cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity). He has chosen you (to convey Islam), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship, it is the religion of your father Abraham (Islam). It is He (Allah) who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Quran), that the Messenger (Mohammad) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind. So offer prayer perfectly, give Zakat (compulsory charity), and hold fast to Allah, He is your Lord, what an excellent Lord and what an excellent helper!" [22:78]
I could go on and on about what God wants from his creatures...Trust me Sufi their is a HUGE difference between you and God
surenderer said:What a sad thing for a muslims to say Sufi
And Allah has brought you out from the wombs of your mothers while you know nothing. And He gave you hearing, sight and hearts that you might give thanks (to Allah)." [16:78]
"And I (Allah) created not the Jinn and mankind except they should worship Me (alone). 51:56
"And strive hard in Allah's cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity). He has chosen you (to convey Islam), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship, it is the religion of your father Abraham (Islam). It is He (Allah) who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Quran), that the Messenger (Mohammad) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind. So offer prayer perfectly, give Zakat (compulsory charity), and hold fast to Allah, He is your Lord, what an excellent Lord and what an excellent helper!" [22:78]
I could go on and on about what God wants from his creatures...Trust me Sufi their is a HUGE difference between you and God
ok surenderer. keep believing in your imagination of god out there and worship him, and stay there without QUESTIONING, without learning and thinking anything else to develop.
yet.. Have you ever considered your size compared to the size of earth?.. what do you think you would count beside it?... Nothing, yes? Nothing!..
Have you ever considered the earth in size compared to the size of the sun? What would it count beside the sun? Nothing square!..
Have you ever considered the sun compared to the size of the Milkyway galaxy? What would the sun count beside it? Nothing times nothing!..
Think fairly now:
If there were a GOD as HUGE as the Milkywway galaxy, what would you mean beside such a HUGE GOD?.. Why should such a GOD as big as the galaxy deal with you, who is nothing more than nothing? Why should that GOD want somethng from you, why should it count your deeds and reward you or punish you?
Do you see how childish imagination it is?.. Think of how huge you are beside an atom! What would you want from an atom in your toe or in your finger? Would you punish or reward those atoms if they do not worship you?
We are not talking about the universe and your place beside it yet? And you are imagining a GOD maybe HUGER than then universe?
Dear, can you understand what you are imagining in your mind as GOD?
I offer you to READ some books, especially the book I have given the link to, that is the only one explainig what ALLAH is.
http://www.ahmedbaki.com
The sufi saints i fairly read about refer Allah as God though not in the biblical sense. Our sufi might have a different idea.surenderer said:
Who is talking in these ayats ? Is Gabriel referring to Allah as 'He' ; OR Allah Himself referring to Himself in third person ?
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what768
Guest
Sufi said:
Just as there are physical laws, (like the law of gravity) there are spiritual laws, inside of us. If we do bad things, we see it and in our hearts we do feel bad about it, and "we punish ourselves". Because we all know what is right to do, when we obey it, we reward ourselves, unconsciously. If we jump from a cliff we will die - it is like this with all kinds of laws, and they are eternal. But it is not so important to do good things, the most important is to stop doing evil things, because then the good will be visible naturally.
Then again, those who do good only in fear of punishment of in hope of a reward, are not really good at all. But by doing this, they might realize the happiness of another persons happiness. We are all the same, whatever we do to our brother comes back to us. Doing evil things is a stupid as punching a wall with your fists, you're just punishing yourself. What makes you happy? Does it make others happy too?
Why would size matter? David killed Goliath, the giant, in the Bible. Earth may be bigger than me, but I am "greater" (or higher) than the earth, because earth is just matter, without conscious thinking, and it is not able to realize God by free will.
what768 said:
The Koran teaches us that "we will be enough to reckon ourselves".
The Koran also teaches us: Those who purify theirselves are freed (to peace).
Good explanation. So, we come to the fact that there is a system in life and in this system that we are subject to, everyone gets the result of his own achievements.
If so, what is the need to imagine a god also beyond or beside this universal system?
If we could free our minds from the imagination of god, then we will be able to understand that this system is is not controlled from an outsider power but from within, and the oneness that is within is referred to as "Allah".
So, Allah is not a god beyond us, but is our originator, who creates us and all that we do, --not from outside but from within-- with Hu's own qualities that reveal from within...that we exist as a revelation of Hu's qualities from within. and that System is originated from Allah and is the revelation of Allah's qualities same as each one of us.
As seen, there is a huge difference between the true understanding of Allah and an imaginaton of god out there.
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what768
Guest
Sufi, I don't know what this "god" is, that you are talking about. I have never imagined Him as outside the world, or as one who must be worshipped. The religions tell that Allah is within humans and everything that is created. I have always called IT "God", because there is no proper english word to explain 'Allah'.
what768 said:
Have a look at my other threads, where some people have an image of huge god standing beside the universe who sends orders from above and is ready to hold us accountable for our obedience.. Most of the times, knowingly or unknowingly when we say god, we consider him as an outer force as a conditioning. We may say we do not have such a version of god but it often reveals in our words that we imagine god as an outer force usually standing above us...
ok. I see you and I do not particularly mean your concept of god. (and I will take care of your posts from now on if you are referring to an outer force when you mention God!
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what768
Guest
Sufi
I don't know so much about the definitions of the concepts in religions of mankind. I'm so new to religion, I just started to understand 2 years ago.
God. "An outer force..." I just don't get it (?). Why would God be an "outer force"? Outer and inner are definitions; in reality - illusions.
Eh... About this "above"... I think it means like higher, spiritually, or something. Like the color blue might be higher waves of energy than red, because the "blue" waves are thinner, and the strings of energy are vibrating faster.
I don't know so much about the definitions of the concepts in religions of mankind. I'm so new to religion, I just started to understand 2 years ago.
God. "An outer force..." I just don't get it (?). Why would God be an "outer force"? Outer and inner are definitions; in reality - illusions.
Eh... About this "above"... I think it means like higher, spiritually, or something. Like the color blue might be higher waves of energy than red, because the "blue" waves are thinner, and the strings of energy are vibrating faster.
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
Sufi said:ok surenderer. keep believing in your imagination of god out there and worship him, and stay there without QUESTIONING, without learning and thinking anything else to develop.
yet.. Have you ever considered your size compared to the size of earth?.. what do you think you would count beside it?... Nothing, yes? Nothing!..
Have you ever considered the earth in size compared to the size of the sun? What would it count beside the sun? Nothing square!..
Have you ever considered the sun compared to the size of the Milkyway galaxy? What would the sun count beside it? Nothing times nothing!..
Think fairly now:
If there were a GOD as HUGE as the Milkywway galaxy, what would you mean beside such a HUGE GOD?.. Why should such a GOD as big as the galaxy deal with you, who is nothing more than nothing? Why should that GOD want somethng from you, why should it count your deeds and reward you or punish you?
Do you see how childish imagination it is?.. Think of how huge you are beside an atom! What would you want from an atom in your toe or in your finger? Would you punish or reward those atoms if they do not worship you?
We are not talking about the universe and your place beside it yet? And you are imagining a GOD maybe HUGER than then universe?
Dear, can you understand what you are imagining in your mind as GOD?
I offer you to READ some books, especially the book I have given the link to, that is the only one explainig what ALLAH is.
http://www.ahmedbaki.com
Ok Sufi please quote Koran verses that support that God doesnt want anything from us....and the size of God is indeed unimaginable...God has no form....he isnt a "big guy in a white robe" he isnt like us. please use Koran surahs or ayats to back up your claims as I do
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
everneo said:
The Koran is quoted from God(saws) to Gabriel to Muhamaad(pbuh) peace to you
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
Let me tell you why I am somewhat upset by Sufism (or at least the fact that they claim to be muslims) first of all its the very name.......True Muslims should be content with the name "Muslims" given to them by Almighty Allah as he says: which means,
"He has chosen you (to conform to His religion) and has imposed no difficulty upon you in religion, the religion of your father Ibrahim. He named you 'Muslims' both before (in the preceding Divine Scriptures) and in this Book." (22.78)
If Sufis insist that they are Muslims, then what is the sense of identifying themselves with Sufism rather than with Islam. The word "Sufism" was not familiar to those who lived in the first and the best three generations of as-Salaf as-Salih (the pious predecessors) who were commanded by Allah the Exalted and His Messenger Muhammad (s.a.w.s)
They often claim that the texts of the Quran and the Sunnah have an outer, apparent meaning, and as well, an inner, hidden meaning. They hold that the outer, apparent meaning is known to those who practice orthodox Islam, while the inner and hidden meanings of the Quran and Sunnah are known only to their teacher and order. These teachers will often claim that since they have advanced to the inner and hidden meaning of Islam, they no longer need to pray or fast, something that not even the Prophets were excused from.
Like many other Sufi doctrines, pantheism is adopted from man-made religions and philosophies, as confirmed by S. R. Sharda in his book, Sufi Thought
"Sufi literature of the post-Timur period shows a significant change in thought content. It is pantheistic. After the fall of Muslim orthodoxy from power at the centre of India for about a century, due to the invasion of Timur, the Sufi became free from the control of the Muslim orthodoxy and consorted with Hindu saints, who influenced them to an amazing extent. The Sufi adopted Monism and wifely devotion from the Vaishnava Vedantic school and Bhakti and Yogic practices from the Vaishnava Vedantic school. By that time, the popularity of the Vedantic pantheism among the Sufis had reached its zenith."
Allah is rumored to be Jesus's brother ? Just a rumor ! Both share fairly simular ideologies!
Maybe a twin of Jesus!
Maybe a twin of Jesus!
I think understand perfectly what you're trying to say Sufi.
You should know that Allah is politicized for those who cannot see beyond the simplistic notion of god - even within Islam.
I do disagree that a patent notion of Allah is necessary for those who don't believe it. It might help them, but wouldn't persuasion work against the system? Who judges the harmony of it? Is it your job? Isn't it contempt to presume your perspective of the system is more harmonious that the other elements of the system who might claim the validity of their own perspective? Don't you have to do that if you adopt it and maintain its charge? If there is a single case of opposing validity (which is dissallowed by your premise?), does that not render promotion of the particular perspective of the doctrine unethical? Please understand it does appear that you're peddling your deen.
IMO, I cannot ethically support the presumption of perfection in any form other than the tao (as rosa puts it, "the thing itself") - as it's perfection lies in its absolute disconnection from perception - thus freeing it from subjectivity. Otherwise if perhaps your presumption relies on something material, like "the perfect document" or "the perfect interpretation of the experience"... then you're obligated by that presumption to share it. The only problem with that is: You're wrong.... because it's perfection relies on perception - so if any other valid perspective exists... you are in conflict with it and are compelled by the nature of that presumption to convert those perspectives to your own.
A perfect system must be by its definition, already in place and functioning without flaw. Imperfection only exists as the result of judgement. To see it in this context is to set one's self as god. If I am god, then I will perform my function flawlessly. If it's different than yours, it is no less perfect. I must see perfection on a universal scale.
If I am not god, then who am I to judge imperfection on a universal scale... so if I'm part of that system, to judge me is to judge on a universal scale (the universe you percieve).
Ultimately I surmise from this twisted and perhaps flawed excercise, that the process itself is perfection - regardless of whether or not you're sufi. You are what you are.
(i had the afterthought that this also illuminates the inevitable hypocracy of being)
You should know that Allah is politicized for those who cannot see beyond the simplistic notion of god - even within Islam.
I do disagree that a patent notion of Allah is necessary for those who don't believe it. It might help them, but wouldn't persuasion work against the system? Who judges the harmony of it? Is it your job? Isn't it contempt to presume your perspective of the system is more harmonious that the other elements of the system who might claim the validity of their own perspective? Don't you have to do that if you adopt it and maintain its charge? If there is a single case of opposing validity (which is dissallowed by your premise?), does that not render promotion of the particular perspective of the doctrine unethical? Please understand it does appear that you're peddling your deen.
IMO, I cannot ethically support the presumption of perfection in any form other than the tao (as rosa puts it, "the thing itself") - as it's perfection lies in its absolute disconnection from perception - thus freeing it from subjectivity. Otherwise if perhaps your presumption relies on something material, like "the perfect document" or "the perfect interpretation of the experience"... then you're obligated by that presumption to share it. The only problem with that is: You're wrong.... because it's perfection relies on perception - so if any other valid perspective exists... you are in conflict with it and are compelled by the nature of that presumption to convert those perspectives to your own.
A perfect system must be by its definition, already in place and functioning without flaw. Imperfection only exists as the result of judgement. To see it in this context is to set one's self as god. If I am god, then I will perform my function flawlessly. If it's different than yours, it is no less perfect. I must see perfection on a universal scale.
If I am not god, then who am I to judge imperfection on a universal scale... so if I'm part of that system, to judge me is to judge on a universal scale (the universe you percieve).
Ultimately I surmise from this twisted and perhaps flawed excercise, that the process itself is perfection - regardless of whether or not you're sufi. You are what you are.
(i had the afterthought that this also illuminates the inevitable hypocracy of being)
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surenderer
Registered Senior Member
Sufi said:
Personal insults? that ok....please refute what I say then.....all I ask of you is to use the Koran (surahs ayats ) to back up what you say...Notice pretty much anything I say I back up with Koran surahs while everything you say you back up with some book that you a promoting
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
Sufi said:
Then please enlighten me where what I said is wrong...I challenge you to prove me wrong in what I say...Remember you dont practice Islam you practice Sufism