Can morals exist without religion?

What does morality achieve? The answer to that question may lead us to a clearer understanding of what it is.

Morality, when successfully applied, delivers several results that are beneficial to the individual and to their society.
a) Encourages co-operation between individuals and groups
b) Favours respect for personal space, property and rights
c) Contributes to the protection of the weak, the sick, and the elderly

Thus, morality is a tool that promotes suvival of the individual and of the group. Morals are an intrinsic attempt to protect the human species from itself. They are quite independent of any belief or non-belief in God, or Gods, or even gods.
 
If this turns into a Religion X is better than Religion Y because Religion Y kills at a higher rate thread, I'll close it.
 
I need to clarify something:
The question is not exactly if morals can exist, since moral is essential to living in a society. The question is, without religion, what is the motivation a person has to be moral?

quoting my friend:
But conventions that allow us to live as social organisms simply don't constitute any sort of moral imperative. And if we reach a point where we find these conventions inconvenient, on what basis do we reject breaching them? That is, why not be a sociopath? What is to prevent the individual will from overruling social convention?
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What he means is that, if you can do something imoral that is pleasurable to you, and there is no chance you will get caught, why be moral?
 
SkinWalker said:
If this turns into a Religion X is better than Religion Y because Religion Y kills at a higher rate thread, I'll close it.
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This has nothing to do with the suject of the thread and I'd apreciate if this was kept out of the thread so it doesnt get closed.
Play nice, kids
 
Varda said:
I need to clarify something:
The question is not exactly if morals can exist, since moral is essential to living in a society. The question is, without religion, what is the motivation a person has to be moral?

What he means is that, if you can do something imoral that is pleasurable to you, and there is no chance you will get caught, why be moral?
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Quite simply: respect for your fellow man. There are many different philosophies of morality, justice and ethics that allow for "doing good" without the need -indeed, in spite of- religion. The Greater Happiness Principle of John Stuart Mill; the requirement to avoid a state of nature by Hobbes; and so on.

Modern humanists live by the philosophy that all humans are worthy of good deeds and seek to establish the conditions of a satisfactory life for all, not merely for the few.
 
Varda said:
I need to clarify something:
The question is not exactly if morals can exist, since moral is essential to living in a society. The question is, without religion, what is the motivation a person has to be moral?
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dont you mean the reverse here.
what is the motivation to be moral with religion, according to the bible scriptures you cannot say that either god or jesus are moral, far from it.
Varda said:
What he means is that, if you can do something imoral that is pleasurable to you, and there is no chance you will get caught, why be moral?
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if your doing things that are morally bad for pleasure, then your not a moral person anyway, and religion has nothing to do with it.

my brother a devout xian, when he's been angered, he has said if it wasn't for he's fear of god he could kill someone. I have been angered and I have no fear of a god(or believe in any god) and killing anybody does not enter my head.
my personal opinion is religion is the most immoral cult on this planet.
I cant remember who said it exactly and if the quote is vebatum, but here goes "bad people do bad things, good people do good things, for a good person to do bad things takes religion"
 
Varda said:
What he means is that, if you can do something imoral that is pleasurable to you, and there is no chance you will get caught, why be moral?
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essentially,empathy.this sounds like hippy crap,but if i even suspect i have made someone feel bad unnecessarily i feel terrible.


sandy said:
Sarkus said it very well. Anyone can have morals depending on what they're taught and what they believe to be true.

"Morals" is subjective and means different things to different people.

I think the difference between me and an atheist is that I *want* to be pleasing to God. I *want* to hear "well done" when I get to Heaven. I *want* to do the "great commission" (get people saved).:)

Making decisions that are pleasing to God got a lot easier after I was saved and committed to Him.:)

I'm trying to take wrong thoughts captive but sometimes it's really hard.

The Bible says in I Corinthians 2:16:
I have the mind of Christ; therefore I can know the thoughts of my Lord that He may instruct me. That's a big responsibility. I'm working on mine.;)
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i think that people's "religious" morals are hugely influenced by their "personal" morals, and most people cherry pick from various religious texts based on a preformed moral structure.
 
sandy said:
I don't bring death to anyone--death to their old thoughts and beliefs maybe, but not physical death.
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*************
M*W: Sandy, how do you know what you're doing is right by bringing "death to their old thoughts and beliefs..."? Only 25% of the world's population believes in christianity. The other 75% believe christianity is a lie. Why would you want to make people believe in lies?

Is that why you chose to infiltrate a predominantly atheistic forum to spread your christian lies? Why did you come here if not to spread the filth of christianity?

sandy said:
MY God is not going to tell me to kill anyone for working on the Sabbath so that is a ludicrous question.:rolleyes:
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*************
M*W: But that's what your god said in your bible. If that god is not your god, then who is your god? Your god can't have it both ways.

sandy said:
He's not going to tell me to kill someone so the question is dumb and I'm not playing.
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*************
M*W: Then who is your god? He's obviously NOT the god of your bible. So who is he? Who is this god you worship?

I will ask you again. Why did you come to a predominantly atheistic forum to preach your lies?
 
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Only two types of morality...like discipline. Imposed and self.

Religion is often imposed discipline, philosophy often leads to self morality.
 
geeser said:
dont you mean the reverse here.
what is the motivation to be moral with religion, according to the bible scriptures you cannot say that either god or jesus are moral, far from it. if your doing things that are morally bad for pleasure, then your not a moral person anyway, and religion has nothing to do with it.

my brother a devout xian, when he's been angered, he has said if it wasn't for he's fear of god he could kill someone. I have been angered and I have no fear of a god(or believe in any god) and killing anybody does not enter my head.
my personal opinion is religion is the most immoral cult on this planet.
I cant remember who said it exactly and if the quote is vebatum, but here goes "bad people do bad things, good people do good things, for a good person to do bad things takes religion"
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killing someone is a bit of an extreme example... killing a person is something that not a lot of people would be capable to do because it is very easy to see it as wrong because of the value we give our own lives... also there is the iminent punishment of going to prison for life or maybe even being executed to pay for the crime

In order to understand the question, I'll give an example that is not so extreme: shop lifting. There are tons of people who do it, sometimes the things they lift are not even very valuable and might not even be missed, but it is imoral nontheless. If it's something that you want, nobody will miss it and you are not going to get caught doing it, why not do it?

The answer I gave my friend is similar to the answer that sandy gave here. She said that she wants to please god and wants him to thing she did the right thing. In my case, I replace god with my parents. Because of the way I was brought up, I'm usually very moral, because I feel extremely guilty when I do something that I know my parents would think it's wrong. I like to be able to stand up in front of my father and be able to look him in the eyes, because of that I try to be moral.
 
The idea that one is moral to other humans simply to please a deity is not really moral. The motivation behind it lacks true empathy or respect and is inclined toward narcissism as if it's a selfish prize to be won for jumping the hoops. Morality is simply awareness of cause and effect of what damages or is beneficial by our actions to ourselves and others. If you value life for it's own sake or the feelings of others you will be inclined to be moral.
 
I personally think simply educating kids on logic, basic morality will lead to a broad, non-religiously confrontational,(that is most religions should not be angered by) morality that people will follow yes indeed FOR their own good(peace - non destructive behaviour).
 
The answer to the thread title "question" is, of course, obviously and inarguably, Yes.

It isn't even a question. to even act as if there were any serious doubt about it is just an accusation... yet another of religion's endless supply of hateful accusations against the unbrainwashed.
 
Varda said:
I'm sorry if this subject has already been exausted in other occasions. If so, could someone give me a link to the thread?

I was discussing this with a friend of mine in another board, and he seems to believe that there is no motivation to be moral when there is no god.

I gave him a quick basic argument of utilitarism among other points from the humanistic point of view, and my personal opinion that what motivates a person to be moral is the capacity to feel guilt. But he seemed not to be convinced.
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www.atheists.org/Atheism/ethics.html
 
I was discussing this with a friend of mine in another board, and he seems to believe that there is no motivation to be moral when there is no god.
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if you can do something imoral that is pleasurable to you, and there is no chance you will get caught, why be moral?
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I think it is quite safe to state that chimpanzees do not worship or believe in gods. It is also quite safe to state that generally speaking a chimpanzee can do something 'immoral' without getting caught and punished. And yet what we see are these godless chimps getting along with one another - gently plucking fleas out of each others hair. Why? They have no god or religious moral code to prevent them from going around mass slaughtering each other.

It's risky, it takes a lot of effort and even when tried, you'll soon learn who is dominant and therefore not try again. Morals aside, because I could happily kill anyone that got in my face, it is simply easier to get along with others - and from a selfish point of view serves my needs well. I want to spread my genes, I have to be nice to get what I want, to get enough food because I am not capable of getting it all myself I need companions etc.

Creatures can lack any sense of morals, any beliefs in gods and yet they still will not go round whacking each other for the mere sake of it. Even ants with a brain the size of ----> . <---- don't do it.

(Yes you will find fights amongst animal kind for territory/mating rights etc etc but mankind does the exact same thing, but only when the risk is worth taking. It's not worth picking a fight for no good reason).
 
Indeed, termites have a natural sense of mutual co-operation that human societies have seldom attained.

Humans are the only species that will deliberately exterminate members of their own gene pool.

What does that suggest?
 
Carcano said:
Indeed, termites have a natural sense of mutual co-operation that human societies have seldom attained.

Humans are the only species that will deliberately exterminate members of their own gene pool.

What does that suggest?
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What about *shudder* spiders?

Animals also do not make cities...they give each other as much territory as needed, or they also fight. We have morally made rules which allow us to increasingly live more and more closer, and we can immorally undo them.
 
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