Can Evil Exist with an Omnipotent God?

[cole grey]

RAVEN,
I am trying to go beyond the contradiction of opposites and find a third option, but we're not getting very far.

Please begin again with Mario's questions (esp#2). I will just watch for now as I am tired of typing.


P.S. Thanks for the links you posted on the other thread...

 

[one_raven]

Just a few questions...

OK

1) If god cannot be or create evil, then where does it ultimately come from? Free choice you say? But god created that as well. If "we" are the only ones that can create evil then we are like gods ourselves. For we can create something that god cannot.

If God created us with the ability to do Evil, that does not necessarily make him Evil or mean that he created Evil. A pen can be used to kill someone. Does that make the inventor of the pen guilty of murder?
As for thge other question, another anology... Spiders can create webs, but we can not. Does that make spiders like us? I don't get the connection.

2) Why does free choice have to involve a choice between good and evil? Why the extremes? For choice to exist all you need are two options to choose from. One can be "good" and the other can be "neutral". An example of this would be if you happened upon a street person begging for money. You can exert your free will by either being "good" and drop a few coin in his lap...or you can be "neutral" by just walking by and ignore him (which most of us do anyway). Why should the option of "evil", like beating the crap out of this poor person and stealing what little money he has, be even there? Evil does NOT have to be there...just "neutrality".

It doesn't HAVE to be. Most people will either put money in or walk by.
(Although many will argue that not putting money in is Evil. In fact by the reasoning in this very argument, they must argue so, because they are saying the if God does not actively help the suffering, then he is Evil, so if YOU do not directly help the suffering than YOU are Evil. That's a tangent we can tackle later, though.)
As I was saying, most people will either put money in, or just walk by.
If, however, we do not have the option to beat him up, or do whatever else we want to him, then we simply do not have free will.
God did not create these hostile selfish societies that performs violence on their neighbors, nevermind their own brothers, MAN did.
MAN created societies that allow people to go hungry while others swim in the wealth they gained from exploiting those very people who are starving.
MAN created money.
MAN created guns.
MAN is responsible for his own actions.
To blame it on God would not only be unfair to God, it would be excusing the bastards that ARE responsible for this and allowing them to get away with not taking accountability for their actions.
It is disrespectful to the homeless person, because if it is God's fault, we are not responsible for feeding him.
It's disgusting.

3) Does god have free choice? If so, is one of the options that he can choose from "evil"? If we need evil to understand what good is all about then how does god understand his goodness? Being nothing but goodness, he can't possibly conceive what evil is...let alone try to make US understand the difference between the two.

Why wouldn't he be able to comprehend what evil is?
I don't understand your reasoning.
Omnibenevolent does not mean "nothing but goodness" it means "performing only good or charitable actions".
He could very well understand evil and simply chose not to partake in it (JUST AS WE CAN, but most of us, obviously, do not).

4) Can you be all knowing (omniscent) and still have free choice? Can you think about choosing between two options if you already know what you will choose in the end anyway?

Your question assumes that omniscient necessarily implies knowledge of the future.
I don't think it does.
I will link to this again (in case you want to read why I think that).

 

[one_raven]

Please begin again with Mario's questions (esp#2). I will just watch for now as I am tired of typing.

I was already replying.

P.S. Thanks for the links you posted on the other thread...

Anytime.
Those are the best sources of information for new-comers to Buddhism I have come across yet, and I love to share them with as many people as possible.
I have a great deal of respect for Buddhism and like for people to get a better understanding of it, as so many people do have limited understanding about it and a lot of misconceptions get thrown around.

 

[mario]

Gee I did some editing to my message (previous page) and you guys were already responding to it. Please check my first message (just a few questions...) again.

I guess what I'm saying is...before god created the universe and the earth and humans where was evil? It didn't exist yet. So how did it come into existence when only god can create things? For example, how could a pure and good angel like lucifer suddenly turn bad? He was forged by god's very hands! Yet somehow evil got into the recipe. That's what I mean that ultimately it all goes back to god being responsible. God can create free choice BUT he also has to create the choices as well. Evil, as well as goodness.

And what do you think of a god that makes a planet that has tectonic plates that give rise to earthquakes and tsunamis full knowing the potential of their destruction? Couldn't he see that coming? Yet genesis says "and god looked upon the earth and said it was good" or something like that. And on top of that if we can be considered evil for not helping people then why does god just watch without lifting a finger as people get killed and suffer? Doesn't that same morality apply to him as wll?

 

[one_raven]

I will get back to this soon.
For now I just want to point out that valcanos, for example, create as much life as (usually more than) they destroy.
I do not see natural events as evil, they are benign.

 

[one_raven]

God restricts our free will in many ways. He creates us with mental handicaps that doesn't give us intellectual freedom to hurt someone (being severely retarded for example).

He doesn't.
That's a simple matter of biology and genetics.
Besides, retarded people HAVE hurt others.

He restricts us from flying just by flapping our arms (hey, not all free choice has to involve good and evil does it?).

Please see my response to cole grey before your first post on this thread regarding this here.

The poor people of soddom and gomorrah were severely restricted of their free will when god decided to wipe them out. So were the egyptians who enslaved moses and his people. God twisted their arms by sending plague after plague and killing their first born. Sure you can say they still had free will to hold moses but when a superior is coming down on you like a ton of bricks then free will vanishes pretty darn quickly.

So if god doesn't want us to use our free will and punishes us for doing so (like soddom and gomorroh and the egyptians) then why did he give it to us in the first place?

Some damned good questions!
I don't know why he interevened then, and doesn't seem to now (it was really difficult to type that sentance being agnostic and not believeing in the Christian God and all ).
Perhaps this is a plausible answer.

Gee I did some editing to my message (previous page) and you guys were already responding to it. Please check my first message (just a few questions...) again.

You gotta be quick around these parts .

I guess what I'm saying is...before god created the universe and the earth and humans where was evil? It didn't exist yet. So how did it come into existence when only god can create things? For example, how could a pure and good angel like lucifer suddenly turn bad? He was forged by god's very hands! Yet somehow evil got into the recipe. That's what I mean that ultimately it all goes back to god being responsible. God can create free choice BUT he also has to create the choices as well. Evil, as well as goodness.

I don't agree.
God may have created this world and the people in it, but that doesn;t necessarily mean he created evil.
He simply created the arena in which evil can exist, created by the hands of man.
A screwdriver is not an evil thing, but ut can be used to do evil things with.
That doesn't make the inventor of teh screwdriver evil, rather the person that used it to perform evil deeds.
Humans are very intelligent.
They see that people are vulnerable creatures that can be killed.
They see that if this person was not in my way, I could have his house/animals/wife etc.
He puts 2 and 2 together and decides to kill the man and take those things.
That's not God's fault or responsibility, rather the killer's.

And what do you think of a god that makes a planet that has tectonic plates that give rise to earthquakes and tsunamis full knowing the potential of their destruction? Couldn't he see that coming? Yet genesis says "and god looked upon the earth and said it was good" or something like that.

I answered that one in my last post.

And on top of that if we can be considered evil for not helping people then why does god just watch without lifting a finger as people get killed and suffer? Doesn't that same morality apply to him as wll?

I don't think so.

 

[PΛRΛDIGM®]

I look upon him as being no better than a "raven" that watches a weak sheep only to peck out its eyes.

 

[Brutus1964]

Many people have asked why did God put us though all of this pain and suffering if he is a loving God. Why didn't he just make us all good in the first place and guarantee our return to him? It is because by doing that he would be making slaves of us that could only do his bidding. To make us a slave would be a sin, and if God were to sin he would cease to be God. Therefore, He had to give us free will and allow us to be good or evil on our own. We must decide for ourselves. There is no other way. God will not force us to do anything against our own free will.

In our pre-Earth life with God, he gave us all the choice whether to accept his plan or not. 1/3rd chose not to and they were sent to Earth without bodies. The other 2/3rds accepted and came to Earth with bodies and here we are now. God had to give Adam and Eve the choice to fall. Even Jesus Christ had the choice whether to go through with the atonemnent. He pleaded with God the father whether there was another way, and God told him there was not. Jesus did go through with it by his own free will. Nowhere on the way has anything been forced anyone.

Having free will does not mean we are not subject to the consequences of our choice. It is a natural law that all actions have a reaction. So the fact that our free will results in a consequence is not taking our will away from us.

It is not God that decides how much good or evil will exist. That is completely up to us. So the answer to the question this thread poses is that evil must be allowed to exist or God could not continue to be God.

 

[duendy]

The whole 'problem of evil' comes from this: image-ining an 'all-good God'. Ob-vious-ly?

GODDESS WAS source Of good and evil, of life and death. so there was no worry of 'where did evil come from'

it was more an understanding of NOT absolute abstract staic entities, ie., 'good' and 'evil' and/or 'good versus evil' and vice versa, but the understanding that without decay and death you cannot have life

it is DEATH that is believed by patriarchy to be evil, and from that stems their prejudice against their created scapegoats which thy consider evil

you can see how this dear of death and 'evil' still goes on even in the so-called secualr age when all the religious 'superstition' has supposedly been left behind. think transhumanism--the dream of immortality, think the sapce race dream. RA Wilson and LifeExtension, of science prolonging life, and trying to conquer aging, etc etc. ALL these dream s are a fear of death and a wanting to conquer it. WHY? cause they believe it is evil. That Nature got it wrong and now the goddies are here to put it right

hah!

 

[TruthSeeker]

Indeed......
Does evil really exist? Or is it just a creation of our dualist intellect?
Is evil just the abscence of good (that is, a negation), or is it positively evil?

 

[duendy]

Indeed......
Does evil really exist?

D))))...you have to ask yourself what you MEAN by 'evil'. do you mean harm coming to YOU? for example would you call disease and death as evil? would you call being attacked and having your arm bitten off by a shark in the sae, evil? being eat by the shark or an animal? These events really do happen, and thus exist, but arre they evil. I'd be interested in your reponse, but here's mine.
Such events ARe possible. We are living in Nature, and all spectrum of experience is possible. We live we die, and though we dont actually know about after death, we know when we are living that there exists a vast potential for experience, good bad and inbetween. Predatory animals are here for the natrual purpose they are here for. We are predatory. how do you think animals feel about US when they find themselves in a slaughterhouse?...do you get me. why can't WE be food sometimes, if we are in the wrong place at the wrong time. so to me all of that is natrual. Nature eats itself, get real with it

Or is it just a creation of our dualist intellect?

D)))))....when myth DIVIDEs up the ACUAL continuum of the terms it abstracts, 'good' and 'evil', do you agree that this will have a major psychological effect?........i am saying it WELL does. what it does is it actually creates a major sense of a plit in the self, between a 'good' part and a 'bad' part. This can create the situation where you are at war with yourself, and this can creae viscious circles, where you hold in energy which after a while may burst out and do harm, or fester away also doing harm. so it is dangerous. think serial killers, tyrants, what people are cpable of doing for religious beliefs etc. many believe they are doing it for 'GOOD' against 'EVIL'. they are split-minded. deluded

Is evil just the abscence of good (that is, a negation), or is it positively evil?

maybe we could then think of it as positive and negative. we know they need to balance, but there's the 3rd element, EARTH. so you need all 3. positive is not BETTEr than negative, nor vice versa, nor are either of them better than earth, or earth better than either one, and son on. it is a continuum. you cannot have one element without the other. it doesn't make sense
it's a CIRCUIT, a continuum of matter-energy and consciousness

 

[TruthSeeker]

...you have to ask yourself what you MEAN by 'evil'. do you mean harm coming to YOU?

No. I would say any pointless harm done to anyone or anything, I guess....

for example would you call disease and death as evil? would you call being attacked and having your arm bitten off by a shark in the sae, evil? being eat by the shark or an animal?

No. A lot of people does, tough.... It is pretty dumb...

so to me all of that is natrual. Nature eats itself, get real with it

Yes. And natural disasters too...

I think the main thing that determines what is "good" and "evil" is actually the relationship between "fairness" and "unfairness", "right" and "wrong". And all those seem quite subjective....

when myth DIVIDEs up the ACUAL continuum of the terms it abstracts, 'good' and 'evil', do you agree that this will have a major psychological effect?........

For sure...

i am saying it WELL does. what it does is it actually creates a major sense of a plit in the self, between a 'good' part and a 'bad' part. This can create the situation where you are at war with yourself, and this can creae viscious circles, where you hold in energy which after a while may burst out and do harm, or fester away also doing harm. so it is dangerous. think serial killers, tyrants, what people are cpable of doing for religious beliefs etc. many believe they are doing it for 'GOOD' against 'EVIL'. they are split-minded. deluded

Sounds a lot like Bush....

maybe we could then think of it as positive and negative. we know they need to balance, but there's the 3rd element, EARTH. so you need all 3. positive is not BETTEr than negative, nor vice versa, nor are either of them better than earth, or earth better than either one, and son on. it is a continuum. you cannot have one element without the other. it doesn't make sense
it's a CIRCUIT, a continuum of matter-energy and consciousness

I don't quite get it. I don't think earth relates directly like this. It seems that there is a continuum, but it is only a continuum within the dualism of good and evil.

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I will post more about that and psychology.... but that should actually fall in the human science forums.......