Can Evil Exist with an Omnipotent God?

[one_raven]

But the act is not evil if evil was not intended.
If a toddler that doesn't know any better plays with matches and the house burns down killing 5 people was that infant evil?
Before eating of the tree of knowelde of good and evil, Adam and Eve were toddlers with a book of matches.

 

[audible]

If anything, thoise quotes seem to support brutus, don't they?
They are saying that Adam and Eve did not sin before eating of the tree because before then they had no knowledge of Good and Evil, therefore HAD no free will.
Once the understood what sin was and were able to make the distinction between Good and Evil, they then had free will to choose between the two.
Without the option of Evil, there is no choice to make, therefore no free will.

No, because brutus states

That is why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden.
It was a way of giving Adam and Eve a choice to follow good or evil.

(they had no free will at this time)

They made a conscious choice to disobey god and become mortal. God did not force them to do anything.

(they had no free will at this time)

so you see these statements dont help brutus at all, as they could not have made a choice.

 

[Brutus1964]

Athelwulf

Yes, we do not hold the criminally insane accountable because they do not know right from wrong. Animals cannot sin because they too have no knowledge of good and evil.

 

[one_raven]

They made a conscious choice to disobey god and become mortal. God did not force them to do anything

Ah hah! I didn't see that snipet before, thank you.
It seemed to agreee with the other stuff he was saying, though.
But that statement contradicts the other stuff...
What's up, Brutus?

 

[one_raven]

I don't know if I would say God "forced" them, but he certainly did stack the deck.

What they did was not evil, simply because they did not know that disobeying God was wrong if they didn't know right from wrong.

God was certainly, at least, unfair for punishing them for disobeying him before that point.

 

[Brutus1964]

One Raven and Audible

God created them with free will, but without a choice they had no way of exercising it. If they had not eaten of the fruit that still would have been an act of free will because it was their choice not too. However, without eating of the fruit they would have had no knowledge of what good or evil was.

 

[cole grey]

let us say, along with BRUTUS, that there have to be at least two things to choose between in order to say free-will exists
(which I am not sure is the case, but let's just to try to get past another problem with Brutus's perspective)
let's SAY that is the case.
Why do we need EVIL?
Why not give us a choice between good and so-so.
Or, acting good and acting like a real a**hole?
That is the question that has to be answered. The idea that you must have really evil "EVIL" in order to have a choice is problematic, to say the least.
BRUTUS, I am on God's side in the argument, but it is not because of faulty logic. I will think about this some more, and you should too...

 

[one_raven]

OK...
So, you are saying that they had the choice to say.... sleep under THAT tree insted of THAT one, so that is free will.
Or they had the choice to eat of any OTHER tree, but the "special one".
So, they DID have free will, but still, were unfairly punished for disobeying God, since they knew no better.
Therefore God placed an unfair judgement on them, which, since God DID know good from evil, was evil of him.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[one_raven]

ective)
let's SAY that is the case.
Why do we need EVIL?
Why not give us a choice between good and so-so.

Because Good and Evil are simply opposite ends of a single sliding scale relative to the experiencer.
If you have only good and so-so, then so-so is evil.
When you are 6, and know nothing of the evils of the world the worst you could pssibly imagine (if you have lived a relatively sheltered life thus far) is, maybe your little brother pulling your hair.
That, in your world, is as evil as evil can come.
Compared to the Holocaust, it's barely even a so-so thing, however.
On the other end, as good as good gets is birthday cake.
Nothing in the world could possibly be better than birthday cake, right?

Good and Evil are abstract relative terms only seen in relation to each other.

 

[Brutus1964]

One Raven.

They were intelligent beings; they knew that God told them not to eat it. They were told of the consequences. They knew that bad things would happen if they did. But remember that God also gave them a second commandment that said to "multiply and replenish the Earth". This was impossible unless they ate the fruit, so yes in a way God did stack the deck against them. Remember it was God's plan all along for man to fall, but it had to be their choice not his.

 

[one_raven]

They were intelligent beings; they knew that God told them not to eat it. They were told of the consequences. They knew that bad things would happen if they did.

But they did not know that if they disobeyed his commandment they would be doing something wrong.

But remember that God also gave them a second commandment that said to "multiply and replenish the Earth". This was impossible unless they ate the fruit, so yes in a way God did stack the deck against them.

Ummm... how so?

Remember it was God's plan all along for man to fall, but it had to be their choice not his.

So, he tricked two innocent and gullible perfect beings into taking a fall and therby bringing punishment upon, not only themselves, but all humanity as well.
So, God gave us a raw deal by unfairly stacking the deck against our ancestors?

 

[cole grey]

RAVEN,

your logic on the definition good and evil is fine, but your conclusion doesn't relate at all to how human beings, in this world, try to use the existence of evil to disprove God's existence, which is what this thread is about.
If you believed that this many people would argue that God didn't exist based on some tiny suffering in an otherwise perfect world, you are smoking crack.
Of course there would be the odd perfectionist or two in a billion who would say, "I stubbed my toe, see God doesn't exist", but he would be laughed out of town.
If you said that mostly-perfect-world people would be more responsive to smaller amounts of suffering, that seems to contradict all my experience - for example, when I am very healthy, I am less debilitated by some small ache, even if my mind notices it more; when I am happy, or in love or whatever, little problems bother me less, not more. Even if the argument would still exist, it would be brought up in a world so relatively chock-full of good things that most of us would be saying, "here is another reason to say a benevolent, omnipotent God exists: that's the twenty-third incredibly benevolent thing I've seen today."
Let's ask the question about THIS planet, why do things have to be so awful for there to be choices to make? The answer, it doesn't.
A free-will choice, between the supposed best and the not as good, is understood as the basis of, or at least the path to, christian salvation. Whether they are correct or not, many christians see members of some other religions and athiests as having chosen the "not as good". You aren't required to be "evil" to be excluded.
There is still a choice of God, or not-God, even if evil were not around. So again I ask, "why evil?"

 

[Brutus1964]

One Raven

Adam and Eve in their immortal state were unable to have children. They had to fall before they could obey the commandment to "multiply and replenish the Earth". God desired for us all to be born into the world, have free will learn from our mistakes, confront good and evil, overcome obstacles, fail, succeed, have joy, love, the whole gamut. Opposing forces strengthen us. The easiest path is always the path of least resistance. Nothing can be strengthened that way. That was only possible if Adam and Eve made the choice and fell for the sake of mankind. God wants us all to succeed and return to him but will not force us just like he did not force Adam and Eve. Metaphorically we are all Adam and Eve. We all make our choices to sin and be cut off from God or follow him and return, but we too are doomed to fail. We are not perfect so one misstep and we are condemned forever. The deck is stacked against us. However, God sent his son Jesus Christ to pay the price of our sins. Jesus rebuilt the bridge back to God that Adam and Eve broke by disobeying Him. Yes if Adam and Eve fell and God had no plan to bring us back then that would have been a travesty, but he did have a plan so we could still have free will and return to him.

Cole grey

You ask why Evil should exist? Well you know the principle of a bell curve. If there is an ultimate good there must also be an ultimate evil. Free will means exactly what it implies. For God to restrict it at all would not be free will, it would be conditional will. Remember God did not create evil, it is a natural byproduct of free agency. Free will was what caused Lucifer to rebel in the first place. God wanted us all to have free agency because he knew that was the only way we could grow. Lucifer wanted to force everyone back but he wanted the glory for himself. God rejected Lucifer's idea and Satan rebelled with his followers and they were cast out as disembodies spirits to walk the earth. Now Satan's plan is to thwart God and make sure no one returns back to God. Satan became the ultimate evil in order to thwart the ultimate good. That is why there is evil.


As a side note, notice how God did not put something in front of Adam and Eve that was inherently evil? The only reason it was wrong is because God told them not to do it. It was the equivalent to a parent telling a child not get into the cookie jar. It is wrong for a child to disobey, but it is not evil. It shows that evil never originates from God. It was Satan that convinced them to disobey Him.

 

[cole grey]

You say why Evil should exist. Well you know the principle of a bell curve. If there is an ultimate good there must also be an ultimate evil. Free will means exactly what it implies. For God to restrict it at all would not be free will. That would be conditional will. Remember God did not create evil, it is a natural byproduct of free agency.

BRUTUS, If this is the case, then anyone who is restricted from commiting horrible acts of evil does not have free-will. Only people with the choice to commit really heinous crimes against man and God have, otherwise they have "conditional will" right? Well, many people don't have the choice to do anything very evil at all. Someone paralyzed from birth is going to have a hard time trying to become a mass-murderer. That person doesn't have much "free agency" but they still have free-will. Even if the person only has enough free will to hate God and not do much about it. A person does not need to have almost infinite options to do evil to have a free-will. READ THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH PLEASE. You will always be able to come up with an easy answer if you ignore the difficulties brought up by this type of discussion.

Also, Brutus, your "bell-curve" is arbitrarily imposed. There is no natural law which states that everything comes into existence according to the distribution of a bell-curve. "Ultimate evil" could still exist in a curve where almost every thing was wonderful.

 

[Brutus1964]

Cole Grey

Everything could be wonderful if we would just put away our selfish pettiness and be more godlike. Satan's ability to tempt and entice us to do evil is his only power. If no one would listen to him then he would have no influence on us at all. The first thing Satan tries to do is suppress our free will. When he accomplishes that he has us in his power.

Most people are not on the extreme on any side of the bell-curve. God is on one side and Satan on the other, there are only a few on either of the extreme sides. Hitler and OBL are very close to one side and Mother Theresa types are on the other. The vast majority of us are somewhere in between. Most of us are not super evil and most of us aren't exceptionally good. All of us fall short of the glory of God and cannot by ourselves return to him. That is why the atonement of Christ was required for us the return back to God. Only through him can we be made clean and enter the Kingdom of God. That is my answer to your question. You can either accept it or reject it. That is your free will.

 

[duendy]

Cole Grey

Everything could be wonderful if we would just put away our selfish pettiness and be more godlike.

D: o my goodness. do you not KNOW the evil having been done by people trying to be more 'godlike'? does the Medieval Chrstian Inquisition ring any bells for you. That in their feversih need to be more 'godlike' they did horribly torture and murder many thousands of women, insluding men and children (have you read THIS book?). making sure the victims children watched the horror cause it would be good for their souls?
And what about Hitler and his nazis, the BELIVED they were becoming more goldike with the evil they did....etcetera.

Satan's ability to tempt and entice us to do evil is his only power. If no one would listen to him then he would have no influence on us at all.

D: ohhhhh, same old story as writ by men. BALAAME their evil shit on the 'Devil', their scapegoat. NEVER on their OWN throughts and actions, oh no.

The first thing Satan tries to do is suppress our free will. When he accomplishes that he has us in his power.

D: errr wait a minute. it is because of freewill you've explained before that one can CHHOSe your 'devil'. now you seem to contadict yourself. for if Old Nick did fuck up free will, how cold one CHOOSE evil--as you define it?

Most people are not on the extreme on any side of the bell-curve. God is on one side and Satan on the other, there are only a few on either of the extreme sides. Hitler and OBL are very close to one side and Mother Theresa types are on the other. The vast majority of us are somewhere in between.

D: where's Bush methinks? is he on your goody woody side?

Most of us are not super evil and most of us aren't exceptionally good. All of us fall short of the glory of God and cannot by ourselves return to him. That is why the atonement of Christ was required for us the return back to God. Only through him can we be made clean and enter the Kingdom of God. That is my answer to your question. You can either accept it or reject it. That is your free will.

I choose to see through it. always the best option i feel
Remember the child seeing the emperor naked?

 

[Brutus1964]

Duendy

Evil done in the name of God is not being godlike. Satan loves it when men do his bidding in the name of God.

Satan is not a scapegoat. We are responsible for our own actions. Satan does not cause us to do evil. We do it ourselves, but he has powerfull ways of getting us to do what he wants. He can severly supress our free will but only if we ourselves allow it. He cannot completly take it away. There is always a way back if we turn and seek God.

 

[duendy]

Duendy

Evil done in the name of God is not being godlike. Satan loves it when men do his bidding in the name of God.

D: Well, the torturing and murdering facsists, the Inquisition had the full backing of the Catholic Church which used/uses exactly the same concepts and ling you use, ANd they were doing what they did in the name of God. so what doe that tell you?

Satan is not a scapegoat.

D: hah...he very much IS scapegoat all the way up to his cute horns and down to his sexy cloven hooves. he is christendom's archetypal scape-GOAT yesirreee.

We are responsible for our own actions. Satan does not cause us to do evil.

D: but isn't his 'cause' being 'enticement' and 'temptation' your EFFECT?
aren't you contradicting your own assertions?

We do it ourselves, but he has powerfull ways of getting us to do what he wants. He can severly supress our free will but only if we ourselves allow it.

D: by Lilith, cannot everyone see how this godamn doctrine can mindfuk gullible people. talk about double binds! "he can sevrely suppress our freewill but only if we ourselves allow it"
so i am seeing straighjackets......women done up in Victorian clothes with their waists all tight and connstricted...people frightened of sexuality and even sexual thoughts. i can see the church banning dancing and musical chords which entice lasciviousness...ie., the DEVIL. Jeeees.

He cannot completly take it away. There is always a way back if we turn and seek God.

YOU seek you 'God'....though i hope your time here will wake you outta the trip yer on man

 

[TruthSeeker]

how about that earthquake and the resulting tsunami which killed all those thousands of people,did humans created it?
or is God the creator of nature responsible?

That's not evil, it just has "evil" consequences. If there was nobody killed, would you call it evil? A tsunami is just a tsunami. A tornado is just a tornado. An earthquake is just an earthquake. It only becomes a tragedy when people die and we know it. More than 3,000,000 people died in a flood in China, in 1931. Does anyone even know that? No. Maybe that's why it is not considered to be a "tragedy" or "evil".

Point is, the tsunami by itself is certainly not "evil" (if you can call a natural disaster "evil").

 

[TruthSeeker]

audible,
If anything, thoise quotes seem to support brutus, don't they?
They are saying that Adam and Eve did not sin before eating of the tree because before then they had no knowledge of Good and Evil, therefore HAD no free will.
Once the understood what sin was and were able to make the distinction between Good and Evil, they then had free will to choose between the two.
Without the option of Evil, there is no choice to make, therefore no free will.

Which is what everyone goes through from birth to childhood...