Can atheists really go to hell?

[spuriousmonkey]

This might sound like a strange question but I have been wondering about this question after reading some of the hate/propaganda threads here. I'm not really interested in oneliners saying that yes, they do.

Can atheists really go to hell? According to most atheists religion is a social construction meant to bind people together and give them a purpose in life. Atheists in general set themselves more a more individual purpose.

An atheist does not believe in hell or in heaven, not even an individual hell or heaven. He does not expect to go to either of them, he expects to die. I'm not sure how to write this down but does the denial off hell or heaven not exclude the possibility of going there?

On the flip side I venture to say that theists must have a rather individual outlook on hell and heaven. Does this have any consequences for them? Is hell or heaven an individual place for them shaped after their believes?

Maybe it is too philosophical and I am sure I am not making my point very clear, but anyone have any (constructive) thoughts on this matter?

 

[one_raven]

I was talking to someone the other day who doesn't beleive in Heaven (he doesn't really follow any religion, but the best way to describe him would be an ex-Jew/Taoist). We were talking about how we would love to be there if there is actually a Heaven. Just to see God's face when he asked "You did WHAT in my name??" If I were God, I think the only unforgivable sin would be to openly admit that you don't know me, no one has ever spoken to me. I work "in mysterious ways" and you couldn't begin to understand my thoughts or intentions, but then proceed with telling everyone that if they don't act or believe in this specific way, that I will condemn them to Hell. To use me in an attempt to control people's actions, thoughts and free will would be enough reason for me to deny your entry into Heaven.

We concluded that if there were actually a Heaven with a God judging who will be allowed in, the only people getting in would be Atheists.

 

[JustARide]

An atheist does not believe in hell or in heaven, not even an individual hell or heaven. He does not expect to go to either of them, he expects to die. I'm not sure how to write this down but does the denial off hell or heaven not exclude the possibility of going there?

Well, Christians will no doubt say belief has no bearing on the reality or unreality of Hell. For example, I can say, "I don't believe in death," but that won't stop me from dying. Likewise, God is not Tinkerbell, needing our belief to survive.

Now, one certainly has the right to concoct an alternate vision of death (say, "Death is not what it appears to be," etc.), which is essentially what all Christians are doing when they opine on the possibilities of the afterlife. In that sense, what one believes is crucial to the event <i>before the fact</i>, but once death occurs, for instance, we <i>should</i> find out what it <i>really</i> means, individual interpretations be damned. Or perhaps not. After all, if one man's jar of urine is another man's work of art, so may the afterlife prove to be subject to individual tastes.

It's another thing entirely to talk about the Christian Hell as if its existence is certain and then wonder who gets in. To that end, all anyone can do is guess really... As far as I can tell, Gandhi must be roasting in Hell and Jeffrey Dahmer, who supposedly converted to Christianity just before his death, is sipping cocktails with the Lord. It's all very confusing.

If you're interested in the diversity of beliefs and experiences and their possible effects on "reality" as we know it, I suggest picking up "Mysticism and the New Physics" by Michael Talbot. Though it doesn't deal directly with this Heaven and Hell question, it does posit that individuals' unique perspectives actually do change environments. And it comes with a complimentary bag of psilocybin mushrooms. (Just kidding.)

Josh

 

[water]

If anything, I would call myself an agnostic, not an atheist.

From my experiences with religious people, there must be a great number of hells then -- pretty much as many as there are religions.

And I just don't know which one I would be send to ... All of them? None? Would Christians send me to their hell, but Muslims in their heaven? Or how is that?

So, in order to figure out whether atheists will go to hell, we first need to figure out which religion is the only right one, or settle for the POV that one human has a multitude of identities (and bodies?), so that each one of these identities can be send to its destined heaven/hell/purgatory/... .


To conclude, I'll quote some things from Arthur Rimbaud's "Season in hell" -- really worth reading
(English translations may vary a bit):

"I believe that I am hell, therefore I am in hell."

"I ought to have my own hell for anger, my own hell for pride, my own hell of caressings -- a concert of hells."



P.S.
There are things worse than hell. Think Wisconsin.

 

[Adstar]

Hi spuriousmonkey

Well according to scripture belief or non belief has no effect.

John 3
16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It's another thing entirely to talk about the Christian Hell as if its existence is certain and then wonder who gets in. To that end, all anyone can do is guess really... As far as I can tell, Gandhi must be roasting in Hell and Jeffrey Dahmer, who supposedly converted to Christianity just before his death, is sipping cocktails with the Lord. It's all very confusing.

Well Gandhi did read the Word of Jesus and said he would have become a Christian but he didn't because he said he never met any of His followers here on earth. Strange that one would reject God because one does not know anyone who has.

On the other hand Jeffery Dahmer read the Word Of Jesus and accepted it. i suppose being on death row focuses the mind and worrying about what others accept or reject never came into his calculations.

As the scripture says it is not being a goody goody that counts its what one believes, what they accept, that counts.

"He who believes in Him is not condemned"


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Lemming3k]

Simple answer monkey it depends on whats true when we die, if atheism is true we will all just cease to exist(religious people included), if a religion is true then those that believed in it will go to heaven, the others to hell, there are so many religions if one is true than many many people are going to hell, i prefer to enjoy life now and atheism is the only true way for me to do that, if im wrong im wrong theres nothing i can do about it, if im right at least i wont have wasted my life(by my standards), unfortunately monkey we wont know til we die, its good to speculate though.

 

[Lemming3k]

Well according to scripture belief or non belief has no effect.

Doesnt this contradict with what you followed up with? Saying that he who believes is not condemned and he who doesnt is already condemned, therefore belief DOES have an effect, you can be good, not believe, and go to hell, thats justice for you.

 

[c20H25N3o]

My understanding of Hell is being 'Eternally Seprated From God'. I think all the visuals of Hell in religous doctrine symbolise this 'state of being'.
If people choose not to seek God in this life then that is their choice. But why wouldnt one seek answers to their own existence? Why wouldnt one want to embrace love in its entirity? Why wouldnt one take the gift of eternal life? If people reject love then they live in darkness. In this darkness ( symbolically ) there is great weeping and gnashing of teeth!

 

[water]

Adstar,

Now please listen to me:

You are taking your religion for granted. You are obviously forgetting what benefits and privileges you had in your life.

Let's suppose that Christianity is the only right and true religion.

In this case, you are one very lucky person that you have come to know this belief. One extremely lucky person to be given the chance to get to know this belief.

So Gandhi read the Bible, and I read it, and millions other people read it -- and we don't believe in it. Did you ever ask yourself ***why*** we don't believe in it?

Because we are hard-hearted, you may say? Because we consciously choose to live in a "lie"?

How can you be so cruel and refuse to give us, non-believers, the slightest *credit* that we actually speak *honestly* when we say that the Bible simply doesn't speak to us?


Do you think that because the Bible is the word of God -- that those to whom the Bible is numb have done something bad, on their own accord, and this then prevents them from hearing it?
Do you think that because the Bible is the word of God -- everyone will automatically hear it -- unless they are wicked people, wicked by their own choice and doing?

And the mentally challenged, the infants who die, the deaf and the blind, those who cannot read, those who have to work 16 or more hours a day -- all these people are condemned?


Did you ever stop to think how lucky you are that you know the Truth?


Don't give yourself credit for things you have not done: It was not your doing that you were conceived and carried to term. It was not your doing that you were born into a family that raised you and fed you. It was not your doing that you were born in a country and at a time where there were no disasterous earthquakes, floods, droughts, wars and such. Many people are not as lucky as you. Many people live in extreme poverty, many don't even make it to reach adulthood, because they are killed by disease, poverty, drugs ...


And now you dare condemn us and all these people -- and say "He who believes in Him is not condemned"??

This is the most coward sterility I can imagine.


If you insist that I am a liar or that I wish to live in a lie, even after reading the Bible, then you show how you are not being grateful for the privileges you have.

If you claim that your religion is the only right and true one -- think: How did you come to it?

If we are in the dark, then you must obviously had been given privileges that we hadn't been given. Did you ever stop to be grateful for that? Stop and think, how it was your family that raised you and fed you, how it was your neighbourhood who didn't beat you to death or harmed you otherwise, how it was a long long line of smaller and bigger events that you had *no* control over, but they were beneficient for you!

Getting to know God was not just your own praying and studying. It couldn't be further from that! You being able to get to know God, and the Truth was a matter of many things that you had no control of.


And yet you have the nerve to condemn and to criticize people -- for things they haven't done!


You mechanically quote the Bible. And forget that the first commandment is to LOVE people.

To LOVE people is more than just *say* that you love them.

To LOVE people is more than just put up with them.

To LOVE people is to take time and do everything that is in your power to understand their situation.

What do you know about the situation of each of us non-believers? Did you bother to inquire?
Did you ever wonder that not every person on this planet has been as lucky as you are?
Did you ever bother to think that you have had advantages in your life that most other people didn't have?

Did you ever bother to think that children grow up in dysfunctional families, with noone to really care for them? Did you ever bother to think that children get abused, in many ways?

And now you simply expect these people to be all willing to accept Jesus -- or they are choosing to live in a lie?!

It doesn't work that way. If you think it should, then I must say that you have a very poor knowledge of humans.


It really pisses me off to see Christians who with their conduct show that they are not grateful for what they consider to be the only right religion.


And now, for Christ's sake, yes, I say for Christ's sake, stop thinking that I have somethng against you.
You have yet a lot to learn about people, and about love and understanding.

 

[water]

But why wouldnt one seek answers to their own existence? Why wouldnt one want to embrace love in its entirity? Why wouldnt one take the gift of eternal life?

Because they have to work 16 hours or more a day.

Because they were abused as children.

Because they still are abused.

Because they had a dysfunctional parents.


Now please stop thinking that people who don't believe in God do so out of vanity or wishing to live in a lie or something like that.

And if you think that someone who has experienced abuse and violence will simply run into Saviour's arms: then I tell you that you know next to nothing about the human soul.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Because they have to work 16 hours or more a day.

Because they were abused as children.

Because they still are abused.

Because they had a dysfunctional parents.


Now please stop thinking that people who don't believe in God do so out of vanity or wishing to live in a lie or something like that.

And if you think that someone who has experienced abuse and violence will simply run into Saviour's arms: then I tell you that you know next to nothing about the human soul.

Firstly it is an assumption that I think people who dont believe in God are doing so out of vanity or whatever. I know enough about my own soul to understand why I didnt believe and it was because bad stuff had happened to me and the whole idea of God seemed like a sick joke. Whydid He just stand there watching you while you suffered?. Any decent God would intervene. Why didnt He intervene? Trust me when I say I understand that. But if Jesus presented Himself to those that suffer in the way He did to me then my point stands 'Why wouldnt you take this hand of friendship?'
If you actually had a revelation of Christ and still chose to reject Him then that would be your 'choice' but it would be an informed one.
I think people who suffer through no fault of their own are God's children and he looks after those and has a special place for those. I think to be eternally seperated you would have to actually know God's love fully and then reject it because love and peace was not for you.
In my experience, nothing had ever talked to my pain in the way that that revelation did and I could not have rejected the help that was offered because it 'was' the answer to my problems - my inner being testified to this.
Do I feel gratitude? Yes! Do I condemn others who dont believe or cant believe because the idea of God seems like madness? No of course not. If I come across those people I help them in practical ways to learn to receive love and friendship and know what it is to trust. If they know that I am a Christian and are touched by my support then maybe they will be able to receive the love of He who gave it to me in the first place.

peace

c20 :m:

 

[Thersites]

Swedenborg's theory was that hell- or rather the many hells- wasn't actually for punishment. They were merely places where people who were unable to face god would hang out, varying according to taste and temperament.
The scene in hell in Shaw's Man and Superman is a Swedenborgian hell.

 

[§outh§tar]

All atheists before the time of Christ went to hell without any hope of salvation whatsoever. Native Americans, Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians.. whatever.. as long as they were not of God's covenant, they were condemned for being unholy.


May the Father of lights be praised.

 

[water]

C20,

But if Jesus presented Himself to those that suffer in the way He did to me then my point stands 'Why wouldnt you take this hand of friendship?'
If you actually had a revelation of Christ and still chose to reject Him then that would be your 'choice' but it would be an informed one.

I do *not* think that I had a revelation of Christ.
"Eternal life" means or says nothing to me -- I do not know what to do with it.
To me, Christianity is yet another cosmogony.

Now you can blame me for that, say that I made an "informed choice", if you must.
It just doesn't speak to me.

 

[Yazan]

Do they believe in soul?
I mean that inside every body there is a soul, and if a person dies his soul comes out of him. If they do, so where all these souls would go?
If they not believe in souls, any way for every thing there is a reason, what they are here for, if they are so scientific (although I see that science leads to the idea that there is God) and believe in no God so can they say when the humanity started and how, I mean there must be a first human in here or say a couple (m and fm), and since they were the first they had no parents, so from where they came?
Scientifically the life in this earth for sure will end one day, so does it make sense that all that (life) happened to take place for no reason, just started between the minus infinite of time to plus one?

an Islamic story ( I'm not saying that to start a debit whether Islam is right or not) about God:-
a guy asked the prophet who is God, then the prophet kept asking that guy some questions like, have you ever been in a sinking ship (At the time he used to think that there is no God), the guy said yes, then the prophet asked him have you asked for help asked someone that you don't know, you don't see but just believed he has the power to do what you thought at that time is impossible (to be risked), the guy said yes, then the prophet said well this is God. (the conversation is not exactly as I said, I don't remember the exact one, but it is of the same points)

 

[c20H25N3o]

C20,



I do *not* think that I had a revelation of Christ.
"Eternal life" means or says nothing to me -- I do not know what to do with it.
To me, Christianity is yet another cosmogony.

Now you can blame me for that, say that I made an "informed choice", if you must.
It just doesn't speak to me.

What would speak to you?

 

[Neildo]

My understanding of Hell is being 'Eternally Seprated From God'. I think all the visuals of Hell in religous doctrine symbolise this 'state of being'.

Heh, it sounds as if us living right now without God being around is having us seperated which means we're in Hell right this minute. I guess all of us in our past lives didn't accept the Almighty so we're in Hell right now. And the only reason why we have religion and people accepting God these days is to make-up for the past non-beliefs so we can escape this Hell in which we're in.

Who knows, the universe could have been created to be our prison with no way to reach him/her/it. All these planets here are created to tease us and wrack our minds to try and give us hope that we're not alone or in hopes that this may be where God and his creations reside. It's all now a game for God. He doesn't show his face and gets to give us all these false hopes to make us belief in him more and more. Ain't this Hell grand?

- N

 

[Neildo]

Oh yeah and as for Atheists going to Hell, like the others have said, we don't know. First we'd have to know what the true religion is before we can accept their belief in what will happen to the non-believers. Some religions are more forgiving than others that outright condemn those of other faiths.

- N

 

[Lemming3k]

My understanding of Hell is being 'Eternally Seprated From God'. I think all the visuals of Hell in religous doctrine symbolise this 'state of being'.

I can live with that.

If people choose not to seek God in this life then that is their choice. But why wouldnt one seek answers to their own existence?

You assume the answer lies with god. I believe it lies elsewhere.

Why wouldnt one want to embrace love in its entirity?

You assume you need god to embrace love in its entirity. I believe i embrace love but i dont need god for it.

Why wouldnt one take the gift of eternal life?

You assume there will be eternal life to be given. And to me its not worth the sacrifice you must make now on the off chance it can be given. If hell is merely being seperated from god then i can live with it so i will be happy, and i will have enjoyed this life. Also if your only a christian for the reward of eternal life arnt you going to hell anyways because you dont truely believe?

If people reject love then they live in darkness. In this darkness ( symbolically ) there is great weeping and gnashing of teeth!

Again you assume rejecting god is rejecting love, i feel love and dont reject it, yet i dont believe in god.

 

[JustARide]

Heh, it sounds as if us living right now without God being around is having us seperated which means we're in Hell right this minute. I guess all of us in our past lives didn't accept the Almighty so we're in Hell right now. And the only reason why we have religion and people accepting God these days is to make-up for the past non-beliefs so we can escape this Hell in which we're in.

Of course! This is Hell. That immediately explains the holocaust, 9/11, and Clay Aiken. No wonder there are so many fundies running around.

Still, I ended up here too... apparently, masturbation <i>did</i> turn out to be a sin. Damn.

Josh