Bush upsets Christians

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Bells
One would think that the differences between Christianity or Atheism is quite vast. You claim that you do not consider yourself a Christian in the total sense of the word but you tend to lean towards Jesus? Then you say that you are bordering on Atheism? How can someone be an Atheist at the drop of a hat? So you have your 'lets be christian today' hat and your 'lets be atheist today' hat? What you are bordering on Vienna is psychotic insanity.

I wouldn't go as far as calling it psycotic insanity. Yes I used to believe in Jesus Christ and God without any fear of contradiction.

But events happen in ones life when you question your faith, and whether there is a God after all. So when in times of doubt I try not to forget the teachings of Jesus. These are good standards to live by and I try to keep to them (sometimes not very well) when my faith and belief in God escapes me.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by Vienna
So what are you saying, that I'm using the Christian faith as an excuse to lead a nation and kill millions of Jews along with all the rest of his slaughters.

Grow up kid!

Excuse me?? That post you quoted wasn't even addressed to you - it was addressed to PS! And it had nothing to do with you - I wrote it in response to the remark PS made about Hitler being a Christian after I told him that I didn't believe Hitler was an atheist. A bit sensitive, aren't we?

Oh, and thanks for the advice, but it doesn't fit. Mind if I return it?

 

[Tiassa]

Vienna

Vienna ... um ... er ...,

Seriously, I believe Bush behaves like a Christian

Okay. I ... I ... I ... yeah. I admit that I'm trying to find a polite way to wonder where the hell you come up with that assessment. And I apologize for not finding a better expression.

and he is fighting evil and the devil with all his power.

I ... uh ... how best to explain why I believe that would be one of the best reasons in the world for him to resign his office and just go away?

Perhaps he should stop quoting phrases which he intends to be Christian-like

I agree wholeheartedly.

He makes mistakes, which is why many people are Christian.

I chuckle at some of the ways I could read that sentence, but as those are just drifting thoughts I might concentrate more on the actual point and ... ah. Yes, the next sentence, of course. (Sorry, I must admit that I'm going to need a cigarette while I contemplate again the sum of your post. At any rate ....)

All Christians make mistakes during their life, and turn to God for forgiveness and guidance

It is not exclusively Christianity that makes me so nervous about such ideas. But all people make mistakes, and while on the one hand I'm of the belief that they're still looking inward, anyway, and in that case I question the accreted stumbling blocks they've placed between themselves and the condition of their desire.

There is no such thing as a perfect Christian, but they try to be as perfect as they can by following the teachings and examples shown by Jesus.

May I please redirect you to the post to which you responded? Admittedly, it's a bit superficial a point, but it's intended more as a thematic assessment of the character of this president's actions.

However, there is some confusion in my perception about an earlier post of yours that I responded to ... oh, hell, it's only one line:

Bush is either pretending to be a Christian, or that he knows very little of Christian values.

What dimension of your perspective am I utterly missing here?

(I took the word "Seriously" at the beginning of your post to be a direct response to my own use of the word "Seriously" in the question I posed. However I also had a moment in which it seemed to be a "serious" correction of some abstract humor I may have taken incorrectly. While I can see how Bush can behave like a Christian while pretending to be a Christian, I'm having trouble reconciling the idea that "he knows very little of Christian values," with the idea that he behaves like a Christian and is fighting against evil and the devil. And if you would like me to confuse you even more, all of my confusion evaporates if I insert two words into one of your sentences, so that it reads, "I believe Bush believes he behaves . . . ," which of course would be irresponsible of me, but I hope you can see the conundrum I'm seeing.)

 

[Markx]

Re: Vienna

Originally posted by tiassa
Vienna
(. While I can see how Bush can behave like a Christian while pretending to be a Christian, I'm having trouble reconciling the idea that "he knows very little of Christian values," with the idea that he behaves like a Christian and is fighting against evil and the devil. And if you would like me to confuse you even more, all of my confusion evaporates if I insert two words into one of your sentences, so that it reads, "I believe Bush believes he behaves . . . ," which of course would be irresponsible of me, but I hope you can see the conundrum I'm seeing.)

Tiassa, some reasons you may want to check out why Vienna and friends doesn't like Mr. Bush or they think that he is not a good christian. It may not come as a surprise to you but you will find it interesting the reasoning behind their special thinking.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,91581,00.html



Some more reasons for Mr Bush for not acting like a good Christian.

http://www.connectionmagazine.org/2003_08/ts_noted_evangelist.htm

Some more reasons why he my friend doesn't like him,

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/430


I hope you see my point.

 

[Tiassa]

I'm pretty sure I'm with you on that

I'm pretty sure I'm with you on that. But incidentally didn't Robertson have financial interests in Liberia under Taylor? Not that such a fact changes much.

But I'm confused because I perceive a conflict between Vienna's posts that I'm hoping he can reconcile:

• Bush is either pretending to be a Christian, or that he knows very little of Christian values.
• Seriously, I believe Bush behaves like a Christian, and he is fighting evil and the devil with all his power.

There's just too many subtleties that I could be taking wrongly. Such as whether Bush can be a non-Christian (e.g. pretender) yet still fight against the devil, as such.

Would it be out of line to throw in here the idea that Bush may actually be doing what I have always perceived as problematic among too large a number of Christians? "Do as I say, not as I do?"

I mean, I wish to believe that the US isn't about a culture war here, but I'm having a hard time believing it.

 

[okinrus]

There's a difference between knowing Christan values and practicing them. I don't see Bush contradicting the faith by trying not to offend muslims. We are supposed to love our enemies.

 

[Vienna]

Re: Vienna

Originally posted by tiassa
I hope you can see the conundrum I'm seeing.)

Nope, I use glasses when reading, not a microscope.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by okinrus
There's a difference between knowing Christan values and practicing them. I don't see Bush contradicting the faith by trying not to offend muslims. We are supposed to love our enemies.

That is very true, but does this mean we are to love the devil. No seriously, the devil is an enemy isn't he?

Do Christian values tell us to the love all enemies or are they selective?

 

[Vienna]

Re: I'm pretty sure I'm with you on that

Originally posted by tiassa

But I'm confused because I perceive a conflict between Vienna's posts that I'm hoping he can reconcile:

• Bush is either pretending to be a Christian, or that he knows very little of Christian values.
• Seriously, I believe Bush behaves like a Christian, and he is fighting evil and the devil with all his power.

OK. In short.

First line , I'm taking the piss out of Bush.

Second line, Bush is trying to do what he thinks best, by using his Faith as a tool in war. (My thoughts:- He doesn't do it very well and should shut the F*** Up)

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert Title Here)

That is very true, but does this mean we are to love the devil. No seriously, the devil is an enemy isn't he?

To revisit one of my favorite questions of Christian faith--will the Devil be redeemed?

It's a broader theological question, of course, but hints after the issue similarly.

OK. In short.

Fair 'nuff.

And then back to the other post:

Do Christian values tell us to the love all enemies or are they selective?

I'll start the bidding:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5.38-ff, RSV)

There is, however, something in there somewhere about crushing the serpent, but I'm unable to find it at present. Ah ... there's a boast in Romans 16.19-20. But it's not Gospel.

 

[Vienna]

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

A beautiful theory in principle but a sure suicide.

Not practical unless one is a masochist.

 

[Tiassa]

Well ....

Not practical unless one is a masochist.

While I agree in general (no need to visit the idealistic potential) ... well, isn't that rather quite beside the point? What is practical to God versus what seems practical to people?

It is an interesting question of faith.

 

[Vienna]

Re: Well ....

Originally posted by tiassa
While I agree in general (no need to visit the idealistic potential) ... well, isn't that rather quite beside the point? What is practical to God versus what seems practical to people?

It is an interesting question of faith.

It is interesting, and the question has dogged me for many years. It is one of the reasons why my Faith is on the borderline.

I guess my borderline Faith will have to stay with me for a long time, unless someone can either prove for definite that there is a God or not, which is not likely to happen.