Bigotry: argument by numbers

[S.A.M.]

From here:

Isn't it ironic that your best-case appraisal of the diverse politics of all Jews amounts to a fleeting reference to "a few Jews who agree with you" , while you shriek that I'm a bigot?

If the vast majority of Jews think that equal rights in Palestine is a "nightmare" and I agree with the tiny tiny minority of Jews who oppose this sentiment, who is the bigot?

If the vast majority of Jews leave their country of birth, where they enjoy equal rights [and sometimes, more than equal] to dispossess Palestinians and form a Jewish state and I agree with the tiny tiny minority of Jews who oppose a Jewish state, who is the bigot?

 

[CheskiChips]

This has nothing to do with morality, ethics, or justice. It has to do with definitions and belongs in linguistics.

The answer is; the evidence you've provided proves you might not know what a bigot is. Let me give you an example:
- I support Israel, someone else can't stand that, so they verbally berate me.
--They're the biggot.
-They support Palestine, I verbally berate them for this.
--I'm the biggot.

Typically on this forum (In my experience). I'll speak out support for Israel in a related case, or simply refer to the state of Israel as an existing entity...you, and some others...can't stand the thought of such notions going unpunished. You then proceed make known your disagreement to the statement. Then the discussion becomes irrelevant and turns to "Is Israel a valid statement." That would make you the bigot, not because of your beliefs, rather as a result of your behavior.

 

[GeoffP]

From here:

If the vast majority of Jews think that equal rights in Palestine is a "nightmare" and I agree with the tiny tiny minority of Jews who oppose this sentiment, who is the bigot?

Is that in fact the case? Do 'the vast majority of Jews think that equal rights in Palestine is a "nightmare"'? What then is to be made of polls citing high minority support for conservative Islam, and its varied punishments for believers and unbelievers?

If the vast majority of Jews leave their country of birth, where they enjoy equal rights [and sometimes, more than equal] to dispossess Palestinians and form a Jewish state and I agree with the tiny tiny minority of Jews who oppose a Jewish state, who is the bigot?

Well, you, unless you can support your statements. But even then your attitude towards Jewish people is pretty clear; you have a sort of Hitleresque threshold for disapproval. Sorry. Not my fault. :shrug:

 

[iceaura]

If the vast majority of Jews think that equal rights in Palestine is a "nightmare" and I agree with the tiny tiny minority of Jews who oppose this sentiment, who is the bigot?

Where does bigotry come into that kind of judgment?

 

[S.A.M.]

Where does bigotry come into that kind of judgment?

See question in OP

 

[iceaura]

Where does bigotry come into that kind of judgment?
”
See question in OP

That's what I'm asking about.

 

[S.A.M.]

We'll have to wait for Geoff to weigh in.

From what I can tell, his support for the racist policies of the Jewish state are comparable to my own support of the minority that oppose them.

 

[CptBork]

From here:




If the vast majority of Jews think that equal rights in Palestine is a "nightmare" and I agree with the tiny tiny minority of Jews who oppose this sentiment, who is the bigot?

If the vast majority of Jews leave their country of birth, where they enjoy equal rights [and sometimes, more than equal] to dispossess Palestinians and form a Jewish state and I agree with the tiny tiny minority of Jews who oppose a Jewish state, who is the bigot?

You advocate displacing millions of Jews and bringing in immigrants from Arab lands to take their place, is that not bigoted as well? Sure, a Jew advocating moving to Israel and displacing Palestinians on land they currently inhabit would be bigoted. But there's nothing bigoted about advocating for Jewish and Palestinian homelands in which each side can live as a majority within their own sovereign territories. You might as well argue that a European immigrating to Spain is a form of bigotry, or an Arab to any of the North African states they conquered.

 

[S.A.M.]

Occupations which do not respect the natives should be displaced. The natives righst supersede those of foreigners with mythological fantasies who want to establish a religious or ethnocratic state.

I'm an Indian, its what we did to the Portuguese, French, Dutch and British.

Some moron who wants to dig up a 2000 year old language and mythology and put me in a refugee camp so he can masturbate to his fantasy has no rights.

Haven't you read the Nuremberg Law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Principles

 

[CptBork]

Occupations which do not respect the natives should be displaced. The natives righst supersede those of foreigners with mythological fantasies who want to establish a religious or ethnocratic state.

Hence why the Turks and British gave up their claims to a land which was rightfully divided between the Jews and Muslims with historical attachments there.

Some moron who wants to dig up a 2000 year old language and mythology and put me in a refugee camp so he can masturbate to his fantasy has no rights.

Right, so why is it whitewashed that the Arabs tried to do precisely this to the Jews living on lands they rightfully purchased and rehabilitated? They appeal to Muslim mythology in exactly the same way as the Jews. There's simply no way to take one nation's side and ignore the rights of the other, only a balanced compromise will achieve a fair settlement.

 

[S.A.M.]

When we discuss the Arabs, you can posit what they should do. Presently my argument is why agreeing with a small minority of Jews who oppose the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians being perpetuated by the vast majority of Jews who aid and abet the war crimes of the Jewish state is comparable/

I'm not interested in the we rock, they suck, you suck, everybody sucks hasbara

 

[CptBork]

When we discuss the Arabs, you can posit what they should do. Presently my argument is why agreeing with a small minority of Jews who oppose the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians being perpetuated by the vast majority of Jews who aid and abet the war crimes of the Jewish state is comparable/

It depends what you're opposing. If you oppose people moving to Israel to encroach on lands inhabited by Palestinians, that wouldn't count as bigoted, because you're simply looking to protect the rights of an established people. Opposing Israel's right to select immigrants who blend in well with their society and who choose to live on lands that have been owned, used and maintained by Jews for decades or more, it can certainly come across as bigoted because you have no opposition to other peoples doing the exact same thing.

 

[S.A.M.]

You cannot deselect the natives and replace them with foreigners after disenfranchising them and imposing your ethnocreligious state on them. Or strip them of their right and expect to not be considered a bigot. I mean, aren't you Canadian? How can you spout such BS? Are you one of those anti-first nation white supremacists? Do you think indigenous peoples who don't subscribe to white culture in Canada should be disenfranchised or put in reservations? Or are you PEP [progressive except Palestine]?

Would you support a Canadian policy to only import Christians as they are the majority? And consider all others as temporary residents?

 

[S.A.M.]

Opposing Israel's right to select immigrants who blend in well with their society and who choose to live on lands that have been owned, used and maintained by Jews for decades or more, it can certainly come across as bigoted because you have no opposition to other peoples doing the exact same thing.

I missed this inference. Are you implying that only Jews have right of "return" in Palestine, because only Jews can get along with Israelis? Do you consider denying Palestinians with grandparents buried in Palestine the right of return to be the kind of example Canada should follow? Do you support this kind of policy everywhere?

 

[CptBork]

You cannot deselect the natives and replace them with foreigners after disenfranchising them and imposing your ethnocreligious state on them. Or strip them of their right and expect to not be considered a bigot.

Tell that to the Arabs who marched in to exterminate the Jews, when most of those Jews came there under peaceful circumstances. Taking the actions you advocate would only reward them for such attempts.

I mean, aren't you Canadian? How can you spout such BS? Are you one of those anti-first nation white supremacists? Do you think indigenous peoples who don't subscribe to white culture in Canada should be disenfranchised or put in reservations? Or are you PEP [progressive except Palestine]?

The natives here aren't put in reservations. It's the opposite, they're allowed to go anywhere they want and live wherever they want. We white folks are the ones who aren't allowed to go everywhere at will, that's the point of the reservation system. It's reserved for the exclusive use of the natives as they see fit, the rest is equally accessible to all. Natives here don't pay tax, receive free and preferential access to hospitals and universities, they receive benefits and stipends from the government, they have exclusive resource rights on lands reserved for their exclusive use... The only discrimination they face from the rest of society occurs on a private level, and we're making all kinds of national efforts to put a stop to that. So don't gripe to me about how I'm treating natives here, you're the one who demonizes natives in their own lands for not believing the same things you do, both here and in your own birthplace.

Would you support a Canadian policy to only import Christians as they are the majority? And consider all others as temporary residents?

I want immigrants who are happy to be here and want to build on our society rather than tearing it all down. That means, in my personal view, fundamentalist Christians are most certainly not welcome. In Israel, the immigration laws may be unfair and need revision, but if you expect to make a human rights argument why millions of intolerant brainwashed Muslim fanatics should be allowed to go live there and massacre the Jews, you need to get back in touch with reality.

 

[iceaura]

We'll have to wait for Geoff to weigh in.

Nope. You can explain how the questioned judgment involves "bigotry" all on your own - or not.

A starting point: you compared "Jews" with "Palestinians". The two categories are not directly comparable - "Jews" and "Muslims", "Israelis" and "Palestinians", maybe: but "Jews" vs "Palestinians" seems off target. Explanation?

 

[S.A.M.]

Nope. You can explain how the questioned judgment involves "bigotry" all on your own - or not.

Whose judgement? I consider Geoffs support for unequal right for Palestinians in their own land as bigotry. By unequal rights I mean his support for the Jewish only right of return which disenfranchises all native Palestinians not permitted the right to suffrage in their own land and denied the right of return which is theirs under international law.

Why do I consider it bigotry? Because I do not think Jews have a right to a Jewish state in Palestine anymore than they have a right to a Jewish state in Canada or the US. I suppose they could kill/expel enough non-Jews to get a demographic majority and then "democratically" award themselves a Jewish state

But I'd be protesting against it until they got there.

 

[pjdude1219]

You advocate displacing millions of Jews and bringing in immigrants from Arab lands to take their place, is that not bigoted as well?

No it is not bigotry to rectify a crime

Sure, a Jew advocating moving to Israel and displacing Palestinians on land they currently inhabit would be bigoted. But there's nothing bigoted about advocating for Jewish and Palestinian homelands in which each side can live as a majority within their own sovereign territories.

Sure their is when one side's "sovereign lands" were gained though the illegal dispossession from another people.

 

[S.A.M.]

Nope. You can explain how the questioned judgment involves "bigotry" all on your own - or not.

A starting point: you compared "Jews" with "Palestinians". The two categories are not directly comparable - "Jews" and "Muslims", "Israelis" and "Palestinians", maybe: but "Jews" vs "Palestinians" seems off target. Explanation?

Are we pretending that native Palestinians have equal say in Palestine as immigrant Jews? Or are we pretending that the Jewish state is different from Israel? Or are we pretending that the non-Jewish status of Palestinians has nothing to do with their condition? Or the status of Jews has nothing to do with Israel?

 

[pjdude1219]

Hence why the Turks and British gave up their claims to a land which was rightfully divided between the Jews and Muslims with historical attachments there.

Their was no rightful dividing. A jew is not worth 2.5 arabs. Palestine should have never been divided

Right, so why is it whitewashed that the Arabs tried to do precisely this to the Jews living on lands they rightfully purchased and rehabilitated?

they really weren't against jews who were for actually becoming palestinians but they could accept those and not the others because the zionist would and did use them against the arabs

They appeal to Muslim mythology in exactly the same way as the Jews.

So wishing the rights of the legiatimate resident population is mythology?

There's simply no way to take one nation's side and ignore the rights of the other, only a balanced compromise will achieve a fair settlement.

Actually there is if one side doesn't have any rights pertaining to the land. Yes a compromise needs to happen but on the actual rights the two sides have not the ones they wish they have.