Big time mormon scholar lands on SciForums to debate all comers,

[WildBlueYonder]

The title of the thread was enticing enough and now that I am here, I am disappointed. Probably my fault for setting my own expectations that a sholarly 'believer' was going show some evidence in a science forum.

sorry, my fault, he was supposed to be some hotshot from the "unofficial" mormon site called "FAIR", that he had helped set up, had presented at the Sunstone Symposium (mormon) on the subject of the Book of Abraham (mormon), debated professional archeologists & he had landed on our little forum. How was I to know that he was just an amateur like me? I thought we had landed a big fish, got a small fry instead, my bad, lets throw him back

 

[WildBlueYonder]

The answer is rather obvious...............Jesus was born a Jew and not a Mormon.........

wrong answer, it’s not mormon enough

I thought that according to LDS belief, Jesus set up a mormon church, that that was what "normative" Christianity was until "The Great Apostasy" (you forgot to tell them that, what now, do I have to defend your side too, wake up those scholarly brain cells)

He probably didn’t mention it, because there’s not any proof of that either

 

[WildBlueYonder]

i was making a pun sort of, too bad you missed it.

that was a pun? I thought you were being either sarcastic or just unclear on the language, thanks for clearing that up

BTW, no need to cuss, use those language skills to make your points or puns better, not "sort of"

 

[(Q)]

The answer is rather obvious...............Jesus was born a Jew and not a Mormon.........

That is, of course, not obvious, considering Jesus probably never existed. Can you in fact show that he did?

 

[spidergoat]

The answer is rather obvious...............Jesus was born a Jew and not a Mormon.........

Thank you. Actually, it was the first question I was more interested in. Why is there no evidence of a Christian culture in South America before the European explorers, conquerers and missionaries came?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

sorry, my fault, he was supposed to be some hotshot from the "unofficial" mormon site called "FAIR", that he had helped set up, had presented at the Sunstone Symposium (mormon) on the subject of the Book of Abraham (mormon), debated professional archeologists & he had landed on our little forum. How was I to know that he was just an amateur like me? I thought we had landed a big fish, got a small fry instead, my bad, lets throw him back

Meh, no problem. I've had the opportunity to fry bigger fish than FAIR anyhow .

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Meh, no problem. I've had the opportunity to fry bigger fish than FAIR anyhow .

yeah? who, what, where, when?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

That is, of course, not obvious, considering Jesus probably never existed. Can you in fact show that he did?

can you show He didn't?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

yeah? who, what, where, when?

Some grey haired glasses fella at a 'spirit west coast' event within the past 7 years. He's a primo guy in protestant circles and for the life of me I can't remember his name tonight.

Anyhow I utterly stumped him with a simple question concerning why 'God' wont accept my invitation to join me for a cup of coffee at starbucks. Then I asked for evidence of 'God's existence and it went all downhill for him from there.

 

[RickyH]

Shirt's two questions about mormanism

1. Do you beleive in the old testiments, new testements?
2. Does the morman prophet claim to be the messiah?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Some grey haired glasses fella at a 'spirit west coast' event within the past 7 years. He's a primo guy in protestant circles and for the life of me I can't remember his name tonight.

You go to those? Isn’t it too sugary? Or is there a good enough mix of music?

Anyhow I utterly stumped him with a simple question concerning why 'God' wont accept my invitation to join me for a cup of coffee at starbucks.

I can give you about 3 quick answers;
1) God is boycotting Starbucks , because its part of the DarkSide, intent on world domination, 1 block at a time
2) God doesn’t do special appearance at anyones’ beck & call, just because you want Him to
3) you haven’t gotten on your knees long enough to ask Him to

Then I asked for evidence of 'God's existence

That’s easy, you exist, what more proof do you need?

and it went all downhill for him from there.

No sense of humor, I guess

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Why is there no evidence of a Christian culture in South America before the European explorers, conquerers and missionaries came?

or a mormon one in the early Roman period in Judea circa 100AD or any where here in the Americas for that matter?

the LDS church can not be a "Restored" church, if it has nothing in common with the early churches that it was supposed to be 'restored' to, why has there never been any evidence that early Christians were mormon, even among the early heretics? to support LDS slants on the Bible or archeology, why does the LDS church only quote the least known professors, that have the most far-out theories, supported only by arcane minutia?

let's face it; history isn't an LDS strong suit, nor archeology, or many sciences for that matter, if they are dragged in to support or defend the BoM or BoA

 

[Crunchy Cat]

You go to those? Isn’t it too sugary? Or is there a good enough mix of music?

The music is pretty gay all around.

I can give you about 3 quick answers;
1) God is boycotting Starbucks , because its part of the DarkSide, intent on world domination, 1 block at a time
2) God doesn’t do special appearance at anyones’ beck & call, just because you want Him to
3) you haven’t gotten on your knees long enough to ask Him to
That’s easy, you exist, what more proof do you need? No sense of humor, I guess

You're 3 up on old man joe

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I've had the opportunity to fry bigger fish than FAIR anyhow .

have you ever disrupted any event? I'd wish I had a chance to heckle Bush at one of his "by invite only" staged events.
last guy who did this got fired, so much for free speech

 

[(Q)]

can you show He didn't?

Sorry for asking, I was under the impression that you were aware of the simple concept of NOT being able to prove a negative and that those MAKING the claims were the ones to show the evidence.

That’s easy, you exist, what more proof do you need?(gods existence)

Such a statement might be overheard on a kindergarten playground and seriously considered, but it doesn't really hold water once you've reached late childhood.

So, effectively, with those two statements, you've managed to eliminate all possibility of mature rational discussion.

Toodles.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

have you ever disrupted any event? I'd wish I had a chance to heckle Bush at one of his "by invite only" staged events.
last guy who did this got fired, so much for free speech

Nope, I'm not quite that talented

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Sorry for asking, I was under the impression that you were aware of the simple concept of NOT being able to prove a negative and that those MAKING the claims were the ones to show the evidence.

That’s easy, you exist, what more proof do you need?(gods existence)

Such a statement might be overheard on a kindergarten playground and seriously considered, but it doesn't really hold water once you've reached late childhood.

So, effectively, with those two statements, you've managed to eliminate all possibility of mature rational discussion.

Toodles.

every conversation has diff rules, depending on the people having the dialogue, since I was not aware that you wanted to hold this discussion within the framework of the rules you specified, I will endeavor to abide by them, thanks

While your point about “proving a negative” is new to me in common everyday discourse (& I, as a Christian would never frame the debate about whether God exists in that way, I would probably say, “proving the Unseen, by its effects on the world around us”),

by googling "proving a negative", I guess that it forms a part of the structure of “pro” & “con” religious debate (so, its not a given)
See below:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/negative.html

In this discussion, I will be dealing within the framework of 2 points;
1) that you are an atheist; so that you probably think within an empiricist (classified as "real" by the 5 senses) & scientific (measurable, knowable) worldview
2) that “unseen” forces, do not mean ‘non-existent’ forces

As you are well aware, many “unseen” forces, do in fact exist; like gravity, time, space, (though you may need advanced math to ‘prove’ them to scientists, simply falling down will prove 'gravity' to a laymen, as an example)
So, my contention will be (to paraphrase the Bible), ”God’s invisible qualities are in fact seen”.

My first 5 points will center on this;
1) that humanity has consciousness
2) that humanity has a conscience
3) that humanity has believed in God or gods since before recorded history
4) that humans have a “God Module” area in the brain
5) that the Bible states that the world around us shows that there is a God
see below:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom001.html

Rom 1:19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

if you are interested in holding a discussion, we can go from here, otherwise I will just post my ideas (now that you’ve asked me to follow these rules), as I have time to work on them

 

[Marlin]

Shirt's two questions about mormanism

1. Do you beleive in the old testiments, new testements?
2. Does the morman prophet claim to be the messiah?

1. Yes.
2. No.

 

[Nisus]

which thread is this? you ppl got like 9 going

 

[(Q)]

I was not aware that you wanted to hold this discussion within the framework of the rules you specified

I didn't really specify any rules that aren't already being taken as the norm.

While your point about “proving a negative” is new to me in common everyday discourse

That's surprising considering it comes up continually on these forums.

In this discussion, I will be dealing within the framework of 2 points;
1) that you are an atheist so that you probably think within an empiricist (classified as "real" by the 5 senses) & scientific (measurable, knowable) worldview

Ok, but you don't need the 'atheist' part.

2) that “unseen” forces, do not mean ‘non-existent’ forces

Regardless of whether forces are seen or unseen, their effects can be measured therefore they exist.

As you are well aware, many “unseen” forces, do in fact exist; like gravity, time, space,

Ok, but technically gravity is not considered a force - time and space are not forces at all.

So, my contention will be (to paraphrase the Bible), ”God’s invisible qualities are in fact seen”.

That's fine, but no such 'invisible qualities' have ever been shown to exist, let alone seen. But by all means, let it be your contention.

My first 5 points will center on this;
1) that humanity has consciousness
2) that humanity has a conscience
3) that humanity has believed in God or gods since before recorded history
4) that humans have a “God Module” area in the brain
5) that the Bible states that the world around us shows that there is a God

1&2) Individual or group consciousness or conscience? What do you mean exactly by those statements?

3)Humanity has believed in gods for centuries, most of those gods are now considered myths, even by theists. Hopefully, they'll take the next logical step and deduce that all gods are myths.

4) Good luck with that one.

5) The bible cannot show that, no one can. The world around us has shown us quite the opposite, and the more we understand, the less we find gods had anything to do with... anything.

if you are interested in holding a discussion, we can go from here, otherwise I will just post my ideas

Post your ideas and I'll be happy to refute them.