biblical anomalies

davewhite04 said:
Hiya Jan,

Where does it say that Adam was not the first human being? When God created man and woman in his image in genesis 1, this could have been their spirit in the likeness of God.

What do you think?

Dave

It could have been, but there is no indication in genisis that Adam was the first human.
It stated that God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,............". The only true assumption to be drawn is that He created man and woman. By focusing later on the creation of Adam, it becomes apparant how this is done. The spirit (life) comes from God's own Self, and the body is an amalgamation of the elements (nature), viola, we have man and woman.

Jan Ardena.
 
Jan Ardena said:
It could have been, but there is no indication in genisis that Adam was the first human. It stated that God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,............". The only true assumption to be drawn is that He created man and woman. By focusing later on the creation of Adam, it becomes apparant how this is done. The spirit (life) comes from God's own Self, and the body is an amalgamation of the elements (nature), viola, we have man and woman.

Jan Ardena.
*************
M*W: Many years ago I read somewhere (sorry, but I don't even remember the name of this reference) that the flood story of Noah preceded the A&E story in the G-of-E. Also, I read somewhere that Adam was created elsewhere and was placed in Eden. These references may have been from Zacharia Sitchen's books.
 
Your passage doesn’t say God needed to rest, did you know that?

Nor does it say anything about resting to set an example for man. Did you know that?

Are you taking the piss?

It depends on what you're referring to. No I didn't make robots with the ability to be proud, but if it's any consolation I did have one of those small ant farms. I put a cookie in it and boomed down at them "Do not eat this cookie of knowledge of good and evil for you shall surely die!" The ants proceeded to eat the entire cookie.

It took me quite a while, but I realised I had made some serious errors in judgement.

1) If I wanted them to listen to me, I could have just made/found some smarter ants.

2) Even if they were extremely smart they wouldn't have any idea what good and evil was until they had eaten the cookie of knowledge of good and evil, and as such can hardly be blamed for anything because they didn't understand that it was wrong to eat the cookie.

3) I told them they would surely die, but the problem was they had never seen death before and had no idea what the fuck it meant. For all they knew it could have meant they'd get an extra cookie free of charge.

4) Perhaps the most important point of all... If I really didn't want them to eat a cookie I shouldn't have bloody given them a cookie. Not to mention I already knew they were going to eat the cookie.

In each instance, be it cookie eating ants, or proud robots - the only person to blame is me.

So you believe in Santa Claus and the rainbow business eh?

Believe? No. I don't have to believe, because I know. There is a vast difference between the two. I met Santa, and once stumbled upon the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and thus the word 'belief' is irrelevant, as is 'faith'.

Jumble the name Santa round and you’ll get Satan, he exists.

Yeah and jumble the word evangelist around and you'll get "evil agents". What's your point?

Ok. Are you now a qualified Quack?

Actually, yes. However, don't take the "bible is dangerous for your health", too seriously. It's just a book, and surely can't do you any more harm than say Naked Lunch, Interview with the Vampire, or even the Malleus Maleficarum. Admittedly it certainly contains more violence and destruction than the other books, but it wont do any long term harm.

Ok, well you have free will to choose, so choose.

It's not about choice.

By god I assume you mean God. If so then, because he is the only God and I don’t plan on worshipping statues, with God you get results.

Do you think this would not have been the same for the ancient jews in the desert? did god not give results? If he did, why would anyone start worshipping a cow? From what can be gathered from the Exodus days, god was ever present and "in your face" so to speak. What I mean to say is, they knew he was there. As such worshipping a cow seems like a really bloody strange endeavour.

This sounds genuinely interesting, has your work got scriptural references to back it up?

Of course it does. I will endeavour to get it done shortly.

What do you think god’s mean? And it’s not the Jewish God; it’s our God.

In the OT, god is god of the jewish people. The NT sees the birth of "the new god", who does everything opposite to how YHWH did in the OT, and ends up with jews being the outcasts. Hardly a surprise considering.

What do you mean, what do I think gods mean? It's the plural of god, and denotes more than 1 - just like the word elohim, or trinity. The overwhelming majority of ancient religions has multiple gods, and I fail to see how that has any less credibility than there only being one god. We can also see a vast amount of demi-gods like Gilgamesh, Hercules, and Jesus. There's nothing to suggest god is a one-off.

Even in the bible...

"Let us go down..."
"Man has now become like one of us.."
"Let us make man..."

Let us make man? How many were responsible for making mankind then? One god? That's not what this particular god says.

How much power do you think the Egyptians had?

Can you deny they obviously had enough power to go head to head with god for the first 3 or 4 plagues? That is impressive don't you think? Try as I might, I still can't turn the Nile into blood.

Ask yourself if they had all this so called power why have they not got it now?

I went to Egypt a couple of years ago. I was travelling down the road, and I saw an extreme lack of architectural knowledge. Honestly, the buildings they were making were piss poor. Behind these poorly made buildings, I saw a 6.5 million tonne structure, perfectly aligned to Orions belt, surviving intact through earthquakes, sand storms, heavy rains and constant trampling upon by tourists.

On the one hand you have this "shanty" style building that could fall apart at any give moment, and on the other you have a supposed tomb for one man that weighs 100 times more than the QE2, which was made to hold 2000 people. It is an awesome sight. If only modern day man could make them...

It's somewhat apparent to state modern day Egyptians do not have the same power or ability as ancient Egyptians.

As for why they don't have this power now.. who knows. Maybe it's because they now worship a different god, whereas Ra and company were the ones giving the power.
 
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6) if only noah and his family were all the people that were left after the great flood, how did all the genetically different races of people on this earth show up?
there's a story about a big evil-people-cleansing flood in several mythologies
babelonian, where the gods create one new man and one new woman from clay after flooding all the "evil people" out
roman, where the gods let one couple live and flood the rest
it's all symbolic probably


8) how come the people of moses, after witnessing the awesome power of god part the dead sea, decided to worship a man-made golden calf?
each day that passed without Moses' return, their faith diminished.
they travelled 40 years in the desert, and some have very short memories, apparently.
they thought he wouldn't come back, that God has abandoned them, and so, they turned to the golden calf... well, not all. a few bad apples were inciting the population. when Moses came back though, those who worshipped the calf (a minority) were punished by death, if i remember correctly

9) how come after jesus performed all kinds of miracles like walking on water, raising the dead, curing the blind and leperous, turning water into wine at weddings, feeding multitudes of people with just a few loaves of bread and some fish, and finally rising from the dead himself...the jews STILL didn't believe that he was the son of god?
1) there were may magicians at the time
2) the execution and pain he endured were routine for enemies of the state at the time

i have a better question for you: if Jesus was so powerful, if he truly was the son of God, why didn't he use that power to kick some Roman ass?
 
i have a better question for you: if Jesus was so powerful, if he truly was the son of God, why didn't he use that power to kick some Roman ass?
I think Jesus answers this question in one of the gospels.
 
Hiya Snakelord,

Nor does it say anything about resting to set an example for man. Did you know that?

Yes. But we did follow his example so what does that tell you?

It depends on what you're referring to. No I didn't make robots with the ability to be proud, but if it's any consolation I did have one of those small ant farms. I put a cookie in it and boomed down at them "Do not eat this cookie of knowledge of good and evil for you shall surely die!" The ants proceeded to eat the entire cookie.

It took me quite a while, but I realised I had made some serious errors in judgement.

1) If I wanted them to listen to me, I could have just made/found some smarter ants.

2) Even if they were extremely smart they wouldn't have any idea what good and evil was until they had eaten the cookie of knowledge of good and evil, and as such can hardly be blamed for anything because they didn't understand that it was wrong to eat the cookie.

3) I told them they would surely die, but the problem was they had never seen death before and had no idea what the fuck it meant. For all they knew it could have meant they'd get an extra cookie free of charge.

4) Perhaps the most important point of all... If I really didn't want them to eat a cookie I shouldn't have bloody given them a cookie. Not to mention I already knew they were going to eat the cookie.

In each instance, be it cookie eating ants, or proud robots - the only person to blame is me.


Where are your ants now?

Yeah and jumble the word evangelist around and you'll get "evil agents". What's your point?

That Satan exists but Santa doesn’t. But neither of us can prove either one right or wrong so this is futile.

Actually, yes. However, don't take the "bible is dangerous for your health", too seriously. It's just a book, and surely can't do you any more harm than say Naked Lunch, Interview with the Vampire, or even the Malleus Maleficarum. Admittedly it certainly contains more violence and destruction than the other books, but it wont do any long term harm.

Thanks for the tip; what type of doctor are you, if you don’t mind me asking?

It's not about choice.

Ok.

Do you think this would not have been the same for the ancient jews in the desert? did god not give results? If he did, why would anyone start worshipping a cow? From what can be gathered from the Exodus days, god was ever present and "in your face" so to speak. What I mean to say is, they knew he was there. As such worshipping a cow seems like a really bloody strange endeavour.

People can be strange.

Of course it does. I will endeavour to get it done shortly.

Thanks

In the OT, god is god of the jewish people. The NT sees the birth of "the new god", who does everything opposite to how YHWH did in the OT, and ends up with jews being the outcasts. Hardly a surprise considering.

What do you mean, what do I think gods mean? It's the plural of god, and denotes more than 1 - just like the word elohim, or trinity. The overwhelming majority of ancient religions has multiple gods, and I fail to see how that has any less credibility than there only being one god. We can also see a vast amount of demi-gods like Gilgamesh, Hercules, and Jesus. There's nothing to suggest god is a one-off.

Even in the bible...

"Let us go down..."
"Man has now become like one of us.."
"Let us make man..."

Let us make man? How many were responsible for making mankind then? One god? That's not what this particular god says.


The New Testament sees the birth of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

god’s in ancient time can mean statues or people of authority, like the pharaoh for example. One God is responsible, but Angels know the difference between right and wrong.

Can you deny they obviously had enough power to go head to head with god for the first 3 or 4 plagues? That is impressive don't you think? Try as I might, I still can't turn the Nile into blood.

Neither could the Egyptians, so you’re in good company as far as sorcery is concerned.


I went to Egypt a couple of years ago. I was travelling down the road, and I saw an extreme lack of architectural knowledge. Honestly, the buildings they were making were piss poor. Behind these poorly made buildings, I saw a 6.5 million tonne structure, perfectly aligned to Orions belt, surviving intact through earthquakes, sand storms, heavy rains and constant trampling upon by tourists.

On the one hand you have this "shanty" style building that could fall apart at any give moment, and on the other you have a supposed tomb for one man that weighs 100 times more than the QE2, which was made to hold 2000 people. It is an awesome sight. If only modern day man could make them...

It's somewhat apparent to state modern day Egyptians do not have the same power or ability as ancient Egyptians.

As for why they don't have this power now.. who knows. Maybe it's because they now worship a different god, whereas Ra and company were the ones giving the power.


I am impressed with the pyramids too. I think your point about Ra is valid, as in giving power to the Egyptians. Do you know if Ra was worshipped before the plagues or after?

Dave
 
Jan Ardena said:
It could have been, but there is no indication in genisis that Adam was the first human.
It stated that God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,............". The only true assumption to be drawn is that He created man and woman. By focusing later on the creation of Adam, it becomes apparant how this is done. The spirit (life) comes from God's own Self, and the body is an amalgamation of the elements (nature), viola, we have man and woman.

Jan Ardena.

Hiya Jan,

By your thinking i.e there is no indication that Adam was the first human, then the fall of man only applies to Adam and Eve, so have we got different humans running around do you think?

Dave
 
okinrus said:
I think Jesus answers this question in one of the gospels.
*************
M*W: Gods are powerful. Gods conquer. Gods are eternal. How can anyone believe in a dying demigod savior?
 
Yes. But we did follow his example so what does that tell you?

Well I think it would be pertinent to state we didn't follow his example. Even back then, after he had specifically told people not to do anything on the sabbath, they still did- and got fried for it aswell. Even nowadays the local jewish community tried to get big poles put up in certain areas. Within the pole boundary they could do things; go shopping, drive etc. I mean really, you have non-religious people who don't care, those who don't believe in a god who have no reason to listen to an old book and then you have the religious people of the world who more often than not treat god in rubber band fashion. What I mean by this, is they stretch, bend and twist everything to suit their own ideals, and the things they don't mind upholding, whilst completely ignoring everything else he said.

Here we are discussing the day of rest, which is upheld even to this day, and many would have us believe we have this day of rest because god told us to. And yet, god also told us to sacrifice cows, to stone our children to death if they're bad, and to kill any homosexuals that we find. Now, it's ok to uphold the day of rest because nobody gets hurt, but to uphold the majority of gods other laws would have pretty much wiped out humanity long ago. Yet nobody cares, god the rubber band is twisted and distorted to whatever the religious people of the world "want" to listen to. The rest is completely ignored, because anyone in their right mind would not consider listening to the rest of his commands.

The bible becomes nothing more than a giant pick & mix, and god becomes nothing more than a dissected animal- where you can choose what parts to remove, what parts to pay attention to, and what parts to add.

Where are your ants now?

I got pissed off one day, and drowned them all in the great toilet flood.

That Satan exists but Santa doesn’t. But neither of us can prove either one right or wrong so this is futile.

I agree, and that's where the whole problem lies. You have to appreciate it from my point of view, that god has no more credibilty than bigfoot, banshees, mothmen etc. I can't just accept something because someone says it's real, I see no way in which say a christian can deny the hindu faith, or for that matter any other faith - even that daft webpage of 'black jesus'.

From the moment of birth, children are bought up on fantasy and belief in beings that have no discernible validity whatsoever. The easter bunny, tooth fairy, santa claus and so on. At least these fantasy beings are of a 'kind' nature, and so many do not see the harm it would do to actually deceive their children in this manner. When they grow up a bit and see the evil in the world vs all the beauty in the world - they envision two specific comic book beings: god the superhero of good, and satan the arch nemesis.

The only problem is, they have just as much supporting evidence as spiderman and the green goblin {?}

Everything is seen at it's two extremes, as opposed to the infinite number of branches in between.

Fear and love, right and wrong, good and evil, tall and short, fat and thin, black and white, yin and yang.

This is what so many people pass off as life, but life is vastly more complex than that.

Now, you might 'feel' god within you, or you might have seen him or heard him, but you wouldn't just 'believe' if I said I saw leprechauns, so you need to see it from the 'outside' perspective.

While I wont sit down and call you a blatant liar, I have to debate and question it. I used to talk to a lot of alien abductees, and I never called them blatant liars either- but I still questioned what they said, as perhaps you would too.

I'm just saying this to ensure you don't mistake me as attacking you or anything of that nature, but just to make sure you know why I question things :)

what type of doctor are you, if you don’t mind me asking?

I'm not a doctor, I'm just qualified. It was an essential part of my work dealing with unexplained phenomena, and the 'witnesses'. Nowadays I don't do much, thanks to an inheritance.

The New Testament sees the birth of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Yes it does. What's your point?

god’s in ancient time can mean statues or people of authority, like the pharaoh for example. One God is responsible, but Angels know the difference between right and wrong.

Well the Hindu gods for example.. Are they just important people or statues? As I said, the overwhelming majority of historical religions are polytheistic instead of monotheistic. I see nothing that gives any less credibility to the belief in many gods over one god.

Neither could the Egyptians

The bible says they did. Does that mean the bible is lying?

I am impressed with the pyramids too. I think your point about Ra is valid, as in giving power to the Egyptians. Do you know if Ra was worshipped before the plagues or after?

Hmmm gimme a sec, need to figure this out..

I managed to *yoink* this from a webpage:

"The first thing the scholars determined was the time frame. They agreed on 1260 BC, about a thousand years after the pyramids were built."

If it's 1000 years after the pyramids were built, it's pertinent to state Ra would have been worshipped before the plague era.
 
davewhite04,

By your thinking i.e there is no indication that Adam was the first human,....

The indication that Adam was not the first human is not my thinking, there is no indication that he was, as far as i can tell from the scripture. If i am wrong in my assumption, then please kindly point it out.

...then the fall of man only applies to Adam and Eve, so have we got different humans running around do you think?

What do you mean by "the fall of man?"
According to the bible, God created man and woman and instructed them to go forth and multiply. At no time is it mentioned that Adam and Eve were the first humans.

Jan Ardena.
 
Hiya Snakelord,

Well I think it would be pertinent to state we didn't follow his example. Even back then, after he had specifically told people not to do anything on the sabbath, they still did- and got fried for it aswell. Even nowadays the local jewish community tried to get big poles put up in certain areas. Within the pole boundary they could do things; go shopping, drive etc. I mean really, you have non-religious people who don't care, those who don't believe in a god who have no reason to listen to an old book and then you have the religious people of the world who more often than not treat god in rubber band fashion. What I mean by this, is they stretch, bend and twist everything to suit their own ideals, and the things they don't mind upholding, whilst completely ignoring everything else he said.

Here we are discussing the day of rest, which is upheld even to this day, and many would have us believe we have this day of rest because god told us to. And yet, god also told us to sacrifice cows, to stone our children to death if they're bad, and to kill any homosexuals that we find. Now, it's ok to uphold the day of rest because nobody gets hurt, but to uphold the majority of gods other laws would have pretty much wiped out humanity long ago. Yet nobody cares, god the rubber band is twisted and distorted to whatever the religious people of the world "want" to listen to. The rest is completely ignored, because anyone in their right mind would not consider listening to the rest of his commands.

The bible becomes nothing more than a giant pick & mix, and god becomes nothing more than a dissected animal- where you can choose what parts to remove, what parts to pay attention to, and what parts to add.


Where does it mention stoning children to death? Where does it say kill any homosexuals?

I remember when shops in the UK never opened on Sundays, in fact nowt was open(except the working mans clubs and maybe a bar for a limited time). Unless you were part of some sort of emergency force, you didn’t have to work either, where did this idea come from then? Remember I just think He was setting us an example, I don’t know for sure.

I got pissed off one day, and drowned them all in the great toilet flood.

Ok, well they were your ant’s right?

I agree, and that's where the whole problem lies. You have to appreciate it from my point of view, that god has no more credibilty than bigfoot, banshees, mothmen etc. I can't just accept something because someone says it's real, I see no way in which say a christian can deny the hindu faith, or for that matter any other faith - even that daft webpage of 'black jesus'.

From the moment of birth, children are bought up on fantasy and belief in beings that have no discernible validity whatsoever. The easter bunny, tooth fairy, santa claus and so on. At least these fantasy beings are of a 'kind' nature, and so many do not see the harm it would do to actually deceive their children in this manner. When they grow up a bit and see the evil in the world vs all the beauty in the world - they envision two specific comic book beings: god the superhero of good, and satan the arch nemesis.

The only problem is, they have just as much supporting evidence as spiderman and the green goblin {?}

Everything is seen at it's two extremes, as opposed to the infinite number of branches in between.

Fear and love, right and wrong, good and evil, tall and short, fat and thin, black and white, yin and yang.

This is what so many people pass off as life, but life is vastly more complex than that.

Now, you might 'feel' god within you, or you might have seen him or heard him, but you wouldn't just 'believe' if I said I saw leprechauns, so you need to see it from the 'outside' perspective.

While I wont sit down and call you a blatant liar, I have to debate and question it. I used to talk to a lot of alien abductees, and I never called them blatant liars either- but I still questioned what they said, as perhaps you would too.

I'm just saying this to ensure you don't mistake me as attacking you or anything of that nature, but just to make sure you know why I question things


I know why you question, it comes natural to some people and I’m one of those people. I always had an inkling that God existed but rejected this whole Christianity business because it didn’t make sense at the time. When I needed God most He came to me in a bizarre spiritual experience that verified the Bible for me, since then I had something to work with. I don’t know why some people experience these things and some don’t as it makes no sense whatsoever to me, but I do know that God has no respect for persons.

I’ve had a sort of successful life so far, but have had many setbacks since youth, I’m not “special” just some bloke who tries to get by, a bit like most people I’d imagine.

This alien abductees study sounds interesting, and I actually think there’s some value in it, maybe we can discuss that sometime.

You don’t come across as attacking me, but you do seem to have a problem with religion and so do I to be honest, in an organisational sense.

Life is very complex when you get to the nitty gritty bits like where we came from.

Yes it does. What's your point?

I was just establishing this point.


Well the Hindu gods for example.. Are they just important people or statues? As I said, the overwhelming majority of historical religions are polytheistic instead of monotheistic. I see nothing that gives any less credibility to the belief in many gods over one god.


Yes, the world around the time of Abraham was all pagan (I think) and really they continued from there. The one God made a covenant with Abraham and started talking again.

I see your point. I draw a picture from a biblical point of view and have decided for now that fallen angels may well have been worshipped, and still are maybe. I need to look into Hinduism a bit more though as its roots are pretty deep.

The bible says they did. Does that mean the bible is lying?

The Egyptian’s turned the Nile red? What verse is that?


Hmmm gimme a sec, need to figure this out..

I managed to *yoink* this from a webpage:

"The first thing the scholars determined was the time frame. They agreed on 1260 BC, about a thousand years after the pyramids were built."

If it's 1000 years after the pyramids were built, it's pertinent to state Ra would have been worshipped before the plague era.


This is interesting and makes me think. Did you know that Amen is related to Ra in a word sense? I could be getting this information from a dodgy website like…

Dave
 
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Hiya Jan,

The indication that Adam was not the first human is not my thinking, there is no indication that he was, as far as i can tell from the scripture. If i am wrong in my assumption, then please kindly point it out.

You're right, there's no clear cut indication.

What do you mean by "the fall of man?"
According to the bible, God created man and woman and instructed them to go forth and multiply. At no time is it mentioned that Adam and Eve were the first humans.


The fall of man meaning Eve taking the fruit of knowledge from the tree and sharing it with Adam. It doesn't mention any other humans eating it. All genealogies in the Bible go back to Adam if I remember correctly (except Matthew).

Dave
 
Where does it mention stoning children to death? Where does it say kill any homosexuals?

Deuteronomy 21:18

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

----

Spend some time reading through Leviticus, Numbers and Deut, and you'll see a lot of commands given by god to stone people to death. If a man accuses his wife of not having been a virgin, and her parents can't prove she was a virgin, she too should be stoned to death, and various other stuff like this.

I remember when shops in the UK never opened on Sundays, in fact nowt was open(except the working mans clubs and maybe a bar for a limited time)

Well, I wouldn't ever work seven days a week, regardless to what god says. I'm sure many others feel the same, and many business can't afford to pay staff. Furthermore, people do like to chill on Sunday's- eitther going to church of just planting their butts in front of the tv. As such the cost of having a store open and paying staff is more than the profit you would get. As for bars... yeah I hated all that open till 3pm garbage, but that's politicians for you. If you were lucky enough to live in a fishing town, the bars were pretty much always open :D

Ok, well they were your ant’s right?

Well I could claim ownership of the ants, but that doesn't mean I actually cared about them. If I really cared, I wouldn't have drowned them all.

I don’t know why some people experience these things and some don’t as it makes no sense whatsoever to me, but I do know that God has no respect for persons.

So it would seem.

This alien abductees study sounds interesting, and I actually think there’s some value in it, maybe we can discuss that sometime.

Whenever you'd like.

You don’t come across as attacking me, but you do seem to have a problem with religion and so do I to be honest, in an organisational sense.

Yeah, just a tad :D

Yes, the world around the time of Abraham was all pagan (I think) and really they continued from there. The one God made a covenant with Abraham and started talking again.

The world after was majorly pagan aswell. This 'one god' notion has no more credibility than any multiple god notions.

I see your point. I draw a picture from a biblical point of view and have decided for now that fallen angels may well have been worshipped, and still are maybe. I need to look into Hinduism a bit more though as its roots are pretty deep.

Are you trying to relate Hindu gods as being fallen angels?

The Egyptian’s turned the Nile red? What verse is that?

Exodus 7:22

This is interesting and makes me think. Did you know that Amen is related to Ra in a word sense? I could be getting this information from a dodgy website like…

You're probably referring to Amun Ra, which was kind of an amalgamation of Amun, (god of Thebes), and Ra.
 
Quite the interesting conversation going on. Anyway, just a couple of unrelated points...

1) Who created aliens (if there are any)? And would they need to be saved by believing in christ like man has to?

2) Do jews go to heaven if they don't believe in jesus? Remember what jesus said..."I am the way, the light, yada yada yada...".

3) If angels were given free will, then don't always trust your guardian angel if you believe in one. He just may change his mind and decide to not guard you.
 
Hiya Snakelord,

Deuteronomy 21:18

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.


This passage doesn’t mention the son’s age; he could be 18 for example and not exactly a child. In this day and age this still seems harsh to say the least I admit.


Spend some time reading through Leviticus, Numbers and Deut, and you'll see a lot of commands given by god to stone people to death. If a man accuses his wife of not having been a virgin, and her parents can't prove she was a virgin, she too should be stoned to death, and various other stuff like this.


Yes, discipline does seem high on God’s agenda.

If you were lucky enough to live in a fishing town, the bars were pretty much always open

:)

Well I could claim ownership of the ants, but that doesn't mean I actually cared about them. If I really cared, I wouldn't have drowned them all.

True. What is the world population of human beings these days? 6 billion or something?

Whenever you'd like.

Champion

The world after was majorly pagan aswell. This 'one god' notion has no more credibility than any multiple god notions.

This is true in the sense you’re talking.

Are you trying to relate Hindu gods as being fallen angels?

No, first off I want to learn about Hinduism before deciding for myself anything. Things like what are its core values etc. I have a friend who is a Hindu, he’s astonishingly intelligent and a damn good bloke, we don’t talk about religion though. Based on this fellow who takes his religion seriously then there must be something good going on in Hinduism, but I’ll decide for myself I suppose.

Exodus 7:22

I use the KJV and it reads differently, but even the NIV doesn’t mention that the magicians turned the river red. I mean when it says “The magicians did the same” how could they turn something into blood if it was already blood?

You're probably referring to Amun Ra, which was kind of an amalgamation of Amun, (god of Thebes), and Ra.

I’m not sure exactly as there seems to be a few. Check this website out if you like:

http://www.touregypt.net/amen.htm

Dave
 
2) how could an angel (lucifer) suddenly turn bad? I thought god made angels as spiritually pure beings.

3) why did fully 1/3 of the angels in heaven follow lucifer? Better working conditions?
Contrary to popular belief Satan and Lucifer were totally different people. Satan was a fallen angel, and Lucifer was an ancient king who had many of his subjects killed, this earning him the title "Lucifer" which had nothing to do with Satan. So who are you speaking about? Lucifer? Or Satan?
 
This passage doesn’t mention the son’s age; he could be 18 for example and not exactly a child. In this day and age this still seems harsh to say the least I admit.

Well it depends how someone views the bible. Simply viewed as an historical 'diary' or guide to the times, it is quite a normal vision of ancient life. If viewed as the word of god, purely literal, or god inspired, it becomes rather worrying.

Yes, discipline does seem high on God’s agenda.

Until the NT.

True. What is the world population of human beings these days? 6 billion or something?

6 billion is the general estimate, yes. The ant population is probably a good 100 times that amount :D However, the way I see it, each and every single life is of importance. There are illnesses, and accidents to keep the populous somewhat stable - there's no need to add mass annihilation to that.

No, first off I want to learn about Hinduism before deciding for myself anything. Things like what are its core values etc. I have a friend who is a Hindu, he’s astonishingly intelligent and a damn good bloke, we don’t talk about religion though. Based on this fellow who takes his religion seriously then there must be something good going on in Hinduism, but I’ll decide for myself I suppose.

Not to mention, they're one of very few modern day surviving religions that has multiple gods.

I use the KJV and it reads differently, but even the NIV doesn’t mention that the magicians turned the river red. I mean when it says “The magicians did the same” how could they turn something into blood if it was already blood?

Well that's the bible for you. It says something without saying it - or it doesn't say something and requires people to add to it, or take away from it. It strikes me as bizarre, that a supposed god inspired book is so easily interpretable to mean anything anyone wants it to mean. You have Visitor's "the serpent had sex with eve", Jenyars or Jan Ardenas, (sorry I always confuse these two); "Jesus was talking to the fig trees, not the people", and so on.

Sure, it gives everyone an interesting debate, but in the terms of getting your rules, regulations and whatever else firmly established, it ranks at the bottom of the pile.

I’m not sure exactly as there seems to be a few.

It's all the same thing, there's various ways of spelling Amun/Amon/Amen and Ra/Re :D
 
mario said:
Can anyone explain...

1) why did god rest on the seventh day? Was he tired?
God maybe wanted us to be able to show appreciation, by resting on the seventh day we are aknowledging (sp?) that God did create the world. There may be other reasons too...like...maybe it's still the seventh day? That He was resting doesn't mean that He was (or is) asleep though, maybe He let's His creation run it's course until the time comes and He's watching over us, not creating any new things.

Though according to Jesus, if there are a man that needs help then it's ok to help him on any day.

This also go along with "Behold, I make everything new", that could be interpreted that He wakes up and start the creation again, the new earth.

2) how could an angel (lucifer) suddenly turn bad? I thought god made angels as spiritually pure beings.
They aren't pure. Only God is pure. As soon as there are a little impurity there are a sin to follow - at least that is what it seems like.

3) why did fully 1/3 of the angels in heaven follow lucifer? Better working conditions?
I guess that Lucifer had a way of manipulating the others, tempting and fooling them into going along with him. Like "this plan is foolproof!!", there may have been other angels that had considered his action also and decided to go along.

4) who did adam and eve's son, cain, marry? According to the bible he went over a hill and found a village and took a wife. I thought it was just adam and eve that god created.
I don't know...Adam and Eve was the first man and woman, but I don't recall that He the same way made others. Though it isn't impossible, I guess.

5) from adam and eve how did all the genetically different races of people on this earth show up?
5 and 6:

The scientific perspective would be evolution. If you don't believe in evolution then I don't know. There may be reasons though, but I don't think this question is all that interesting.

7) how come the angel of death, that was unleashed on the egyptians during moses' time, could tell who was a "first born" but couldn't tell the difference between a jew and an egyptian? The jews had to put a mark of blood on the door to protect themselves from it.
Don't know.

8) how come the people of moses, after witnessing the awesome power of god part the dead sea, decided to worship a man-made golden calf?
Maybe their sinful needs hindered them from believing.

9) how come after jesus performed all kinds of miracles like walking on water, raising the dead, curing the blind and leperous, turning water into wine at weddings, feeding multitudes of people with just a few loaves of bread and some fish, and finally rising from the dead himself...the jews STILL didn't believe that he was the son of god?
Some people have a really hard time believing, I read that even though people witness unexplained phenomena they refused to believe it, they have too much doubt in them. So it seems anyway.


So many questions...so few answers.
There are answers to everything, allthough we may not ever find them (though I am pretty sure each of us will find them in a matter of hundred years or so).
 
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Hiya Snakelord,

Well it depends how someone views the bible. Simply viewed as an historical 'diary' or guide to the times, it is quite a normal vision of ancient life. If viewed as the word of god, purely literal, or god inspired, it becomes rather worrying.

Yes. But the bottom line is that both of your examples were not actually valid.

Until the NT.

Why do you come to this conclusion?

6 billion is the general estimate, yes. The ant population is probably a good 100 times that amount However, the way I see it, each and every single life is of importance. There are illnesses, and accidents to keep the populous somewhat stable - there's no need to add mass annihilation to that.

Obviously God does not agree with your assessment of the situation.

Not to mention, they're one of very few modern day surviving religions that has multiple gods.

Yeah

Well that's the bible for you. It says something without saying it - or it doesn't say something and requires people to add to it, or take away from it. It strikes me as bizarre, that a supposed god inspired book is so easily interpretable to mean anything anyone wants it to mean. You have Visitor's "the serpent had sex with eve", Jenyars or Jan Ardenas, (sorry I always confuse these two); "Jesus was talking to the fig trees, not the people", and so on.

Sure, it gives everyone an interesting debate, but in the terms of getting your rules, regulations and whatever else firmly established, it ranks at the bottom of the pile.


Well the verse we’re talking about seems pretty clear cut to me, but it is open to interpretation. I think a little bit of common sense clears most of these little niggles up to be honest.

It's all the same thing, there's various ways of spelling Amun/Amon/Amen and Ra/Re

Oh I see, thanks.

Dave
 
davewhite04,

The fall of man meaning Eve taking the fruit of knowledge from the tree and sharing it with Adam. It doesn't mention any other humans eating it. All genealogies in the Bible go back to Adam if I remember correctly (except Matthew).

The fall, is not the eating of the fruit (apple) itself, but the intention behind the act. I think the "fall of man" you pertain to, is the degridation of the the sons (daughters) of that Adam and Eve.

Jan Ardena.
 
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