Bible's accuracy/truth
- Thread starter Enigma'07
- Start date
geez...It was awhile ago and it was a total fringe "The end times are coming" rag. I wouldn't even know how to google it.
I do not believe that the various authors of the bible ever intented it to be 100 % true.
Everyone is talking about gods word here. Do you really think he dictated all that crap? Imagine this, some thousand years ago, some guys were really fed up with being slaves and suppressed and all that.
What do they do? They run away. But you have to keep the group together, give it a common cause, otherwise it would fall apart and most would die or be suppressed again. So you create a new religion, for at that time a religion was the strongest body, even stronger that kings or states because religion tends to survive many generations. So they start this new religion, or better cult, because it was not big enough in the beginning. To make themself secure, they try to spread this cult, because bigger religion don´t like cults and sometimes destroy them.
So they needed converts. How to get them? Of course you can go and preach to people, but you can also write flyers, advertisement. In those advertisements, you put some information about the religion, about the god and try to give people a general idea of it. Perhaps you add some things to the advertisement that give it authority. Like the almighty god who created the earth and protected his followers. Very impressive, isn´t it?
It´s just like the slogan "whiter than white" for some cleaning product.
So the "missionaries" go out and preach the word of god, reading from their flyer and giving it to people. After a while you need something more, you embellish the flyer a bit, make it into a small book. You give people contemporary stories, involving place and people they know, to give them examples of the values the cult advocates. To transmitt some moral and ethical values. And at that time such things were commonly transmitted by such stories since it was the most common sort of communication.
So the people start talking about that cult, the stories of it and their god. As people tend to embellish, more and more things are accredited to the god and his followers, most are fantasies.
Meanwhile, more and more was added to the advertisement, making it into a story and rulebook. This book found its way over the centuries and millenia and was constantly edited and updated and not to forgett translated. In the end, it was a mixture of fictional stories containing real persons and places, the desription of the religios belief system, a few historicall facts and a lot of mouth to mouth information/propaganda.
But people started to see the whole book as something written by god or at least by gods will. They started to belief in everything that was written within it. And they believed in the written things literally, without abstraction or great thought. Even when some parts didn´t fit, they did not start to think, they started to explain it with gods will and say that you cannot reason about it, you can only have faith in it.
And on and on it went and here we are today. At a point were no one can really prove that the bible was written by god himself. No one can say which parts of the bible were written truthfully and which parts are only imagination. But I think it can well be said that not everything is true.
Everyone is talking about gods word here. Do you really think he dictated all that crap? Imagine this, some thousand years ago, some guys were really fed up with being slaves and suppressed and all that.
What do they do? They run away. But you have to keep the group together, give it a common cause, otherwise it would fall apart and most would die or be suppressed again. So you create a new religion, for at that time a religion was the strongest body, even stronger that kings or states because religion tends to survive many generations. So they start this new religion, or better cult, because it was not big enough in the beginning. To make themself secure, they try to spread this cult, because bigger religion don´t like cults and sometimes destroy them.
So they needed converts. How to get them? Of course you can go and preach to people, but you can also write flyers, advertisement. In those advertisements, you put some information about the religion, about the god and try to give people a general idea of it. Perhaps you add some things to the advertisement that give it authority. Like the almighty god who created the earth and protected his followers. Very impressive, isn´t it?
It´s just like the slogan "whiter than white" for some cleaning product.
So the "missionaries" go out and preach the word of god, reading from their flyer and giving it to people. After a while you need something more, you embellish the flyer a bit, make it into a small book. You give people contemporary stories, involving place and people they know, to give them examples of the values the cult advocates. To transmitt some moral and ethical values. And at that time such things were commonly transmitted by such stories since it was the most common sort of communication.
So the people start talking about that cult, the stories of it and their god. As people tend to embellish, more and more things are accredited to the god and his followers, most are fantasies.
Meanwhile, more and more was added to the advertisement, making it into a story and rulebook. This book found its way over the centuries and millenia and was constantly edited and updated and not to forgett translated. In the end, it was a mixture of fictional stories containing real persons and places, the desription of the religios belief system, a few historicall facts and a lot of mouth to mouth information/propaganda.
But people started to see the whole book as something written by god or at least by gods will. They started to belief in everything that was written within it. And they believed in the written things literally, without abstraction or great thought. Even when some parts didn´t fit, they did not start to think, they started to explain it with gods will and say that you cannot reason about it, you can only have faith in it.
And on and on it went and here we are today. At a point were no one can really prove that the bible was written by god himself. No one can say which parts of the bible were written truthfully and which parts are only imagination. But I think it can well be said that not everything is true.
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Nonsense. Neither you nor anyone else around has ever had access to "the original Greek/Hebrew".Enigma'07 said:
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Well, that was clear.Medicine Woman said:
Dreamwalker said:
The people who wrote the Bible were eyewitnesses and disciples of Jesus. Just because the Bible has things you wouldn't see everyday happen in it does not necessarily make it false. Today the words of eyewitnesses are taken very seriously because of the value they can have in the case. Sadly, the Bible has been categorized "Religion" and disregarded. But the people who wrote it lived within a century of Jesus' death. Luke was an eyewitness to all that happened. Matthew, Mark, and John were more like "Christian Detectives" and interviewed Luke, and other eyewitnesses, to put the whole story together. The people who wrote this down lived in a culture where writing things down was EXTREMELY important. You seem to be thinking that the bible was twisted into a legend over time, sort of like the story of Alexander the Great or Odysseus. In the time of Jesus, the Israelites, if they were going to write anything down, would have the document checked and double checked by elders, other eyewitnesses, and more. It was like the childhood game of "telephone", except for one thing: the third person would double-check with the first person, the fifth would check with the third, etc. so that the document would remain reliable.
There are things written in the bible before Jesus appeared or am I mistaken?
And at the time they were supposed to have happened, most people told tales to keep the stories alive. Only later were those things written down.
And even after a hundred years, a story can be twisted quite a bit.
And most did not double check, they copied....
And at the time they were supposed to have happened, most people told tales to keep the stories alive. Only later were those things written down.
And even after a hundred years, a story can be twisted quite a bit.
And most did not double check, they copied....
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Unless you are very young, you should be very much ashamed of yourself. That was easily the most inane tapestry of non sequitur and innuendo that I've seen in a long time. So, for example:
You really need to read through this stuff and understand what it's saying before you embarrass yourself further.
This is clearly not "Evidence For The Garden Of Eden" but, rather, evidence of a common folklore. From where do you think the proto-Israelites would pick up their folklore - Cleveland?
You really need to read through this stuff and understand what it's saying before you embarrass yourself further.
Consequent Athiest:
I DO have access to Hebrew/ Greek texts. I can go to a christian book store and find a Greek New Testament, or Hebrew Old testament. I can email my pastor and he can provide me with them. It's not really hard to find, just takes some time to understand if you don't know the language your reading very well.
Dreamwalker:
I think christianity is more than a cult. There has to be something more to it if people are willing to die for it, and not just a few; thousands of them,and all through history. Do you agree somewhat? The Bible was written by 40+ authors, on 3 continants, in 3 differant langauges, over a span of 1,500 years. Yet through all this, the Bible constantly maintains a theme of Gog's redemption of mankind. Taken all of the above, it seems highly unlikely that this text could be commposed and believed and read today, unless you credit a supernatural being with inspiring the work. Or you could come to the conclusion that this book is radom texts jumbled together, which in my mind doesn't seem very likely.
SouthStar:
Your right! Having something inspired and having something dictated are two seperate things. But if you look at what the word inspirated means in the Bible, it is shown that this was a supernatural event. It's not just guys saying: I think this is how this event occured or this sounds good, lets write it down. It was the Holy Spirit guiding them leading them, saying you need to share this with other people. That's why the differant books sound slightly differant. Each was written by people of differant walks of life. David was a king. Luke was a doctor. those were educated people. And then there's people like Jonh and James. They were fishermen. They didn't have much education. I think it just all adds to the uniquness of the Bible.
I DO have access to Hebrew/ Greek texts. I can go to a christian book store and find a Greek New Testament, or Hebrew Old testament. I can email my pastor and he can provide me with them. It's not really hard to find, just takes some time to understand if you don't know the language your reading very well.
Dreamwalker:
I think christianity is more than a cult. There has to be something more to it if people are willing to die for it, and not just a few; thousands of them,and all through history. Do you agree somewhat? The Bible was written by 40+ authors, on 3 continants, in 3 differant langauges, over a span of 1,500 years. Yet through all this, the Bible constantly maintains a theme of Gog's redemption of mankind. Taken all of the above, it seems highly unlikely that this text could be commposed and believed and read today, unless you credit a supernatural being with inspiring the work. Or you could come to the conclusion that this book is radom texts jumbled together, which in my mind doesn't seem very likely.
SouthStar:
Your right! Having something inspired and having something dictated are two seperate things. But if you look at what the word inspirated means in the Bible, it is shown that this was a supernatural event. It's not just guys saying: I think this is how this event occured or this sounds good, lets write it down. It was the Holy Spirit guiding them leading them, saying you need to share this with other people. That's why the differant books sound slightly differant. Each was written by people of differant walks of life. David was a king. Luke was a doctor. those were educated people. And then there's people like Jonh and James. They were fishermen. They didn't have much education. I think it just all adds to the uniquness of the Bible.
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Not according to current scholarship.Truth51 said:
Enigma:
I said christianity was a cult in the beginning.
Definition
cult (RELIGION) [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
1 a religious group, often living together, whose beliefs are considered extreme or strange by many people:
Their son ran away from home and joined a religious cult.
2 a particular system of religious belief:
the Hindu cult of Shiva
You see, in the earlier times of christianity, most people tended to believe in multiple gods, thus the first definition fits on christianity. But I also said that it spread and became a religion.
I said christianity was a cult in the beginning.
Definition
cult (RELIGION) [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
1 a religious group, often living together, whose beliefs are considered extreme or strange by many people:
Their son ran away from home and joined a religious cult.
2 a particular system of religious belief:
the Hindu cult of Shiva
You see, in the earlier times of christianity, most people tended to believe in multiple gods, thus the first definition fits on christianity. But I also said that it spread and became a religion.
@ Enigma
Nah, I didn´t say that it was random text. It had a purpose. It was written to spread the religion and to make it more interesting and attractive.
I just think that the bible was written to convey an image, an idea of god. Written in a form to make it easy to understand by every one. And I think that was best done by contemporary stories, because the people could understand and associate with that.
But to say everything that was written in the bible is true is enormously arrogant and naive.
Nah, I didn´t say that it was random text. It had a purpose. It was written to spread the religion and to make it more interesting and attractive.
I just think that the bible was written to convey an image, an idea of god. Written in a form to make it easy to understand by every one. And I think that was best done by contemporary stories, because the people could understand and associate with that.
But to say everything that was written in the bible is true is enormously arrogant and naive.
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
That is grossly ignorant. The earliest OT manuscriot is circa 2nd century BCE while the earliest Bible (Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus) is 4th century CE.Enigma'07 said:
People make copies of books.
Well, If you agree that it was written for a purpose, then how do you explain it keeping them same purpose all though those 1500 years. Today you write a book like that in it will be good for a while, but new stuff replases it. The Bible is unique in this aspect.
Well, If you agree that it was written for a purpose, then how do you explain it keeping them same purpose all though those 1500 years. Today you write a book like that in it will be good for a while, but new stuff replases it. The Bible is unique in this aspect.
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
I usually stay out of such debates as this because it could be concieved as "bible-bashing" which i dont do....but the most accurate account of Jesus's (saws)life isnt even in the bible which is the Gospel of Barnabas. He was a disciple(as a matter of fact he was the one who decided to let the disciples admit Paul/Saul into the group) and he accounted for the missing years from Jesus's(saws) life but his book didnt make the final cut because he confirm Jesus's divinity(he said Jesus was a Prophet)....peace
@ Enigma
I think, someone had an idea. He wrote it down or told it someone and it was written down later.
This idea he wrote down was picked up by other people. People who believed in the same thing. Perhaps people who were members of the religion or just liked their ideas. Anyway, they picked up the idea and thought about it. Then they wrote something new along the lines of that idea. And in the end it came to be compiled in the bible.
But I do not think that they have to be inspired by god to write about this idea. People were writing about other things for a longer time.
As I tried to express, I have no problems with people who believe in god. Or even in the bible. But I think that the bible is just a conduct for the idea of the christian god. It is full of metaphors, parallels and images. But it should not be taken for fact. I think you should read it and get an idea of god, an idea of what god is about. But it is no instruction that works like "follow what Paul has written and you go to heaven". The bible was created to convey the idea of what god is like, but it doesn´t convey god through facts, just through stories, images and metaphors.
God may exist, but I doubt that he is exactly that which was written in the bible. If god is really god, you cannot explain him through facts (if you can explain him at all).. All you can do is think up stories that make it possible for the reader to gain a small idea of god, of the morals and values he advocates.
But to say that those who wrote the bible were dictated by god is nonsense.
I think, someone had an idea. He wrote it down or told it someone and it was written down later.
This idea he wrote down was picked up by other people. People who believed in the same thing. Perhaps people who were members of the religion or just liked their ideas. Anyway, they picked up the idea and thought about it. Then they wrote something new along the lines of that idea. And in the end it came to be compiled in the bible.
But I do not think that they have to be inspired by god to write about this idea. People were writing about other things for a longer time.
As I tried to express, I have no problems with people who believe in god. Or even in the bible. But I think that the bible is just a conduct for the idea of the christian god. It is full of metaphors, parallels and images. But it should not be taken for fact. I think you should read it and get an idea of god, an idea of what god is about. But it is no instruction that works like "follow what Paul has written and you go to heaven". The bible was created to convey the idea of what god is like, but it doesn´t convey god through facts, just through stories, images and metaphors.
God may exist, but I doubt that he is exactly that which was written in the bible. If god is really god, you cannot explain him through facts (if you can explain him at all).. All you can do is think up stories that make it possible for the reader to gain a small idea of god, of the morals and values he advocates.
But to say that those who wrote the bible were dictated by god is nonsense.