Bible versions

SnakeLord said:
... how many people do you know that are capable of, or have ever read god's word in it's original language? Very very few. The rest, all of you adults, cling to a "dumbed down" version of it and consider it the 'facts' when they do not even understand the originals....

No!

You are confusing dumbed down with "translated". You know there is a difference. You can have a quite detailed and thorough translation.

My New Jerusalem Catholic Bible has extensive margin notes concerning the original words and usages. Besides, at a certain point you need to admit to yourself that the Bible is not speaking of inaccessable and unknowable puzzles.. it is not a code that is being de-crypted. We are being presented with ordinary phrases with ordinary meanings, and so, if we can discount desception, which I suspect of Protestant Translations, it should not be difficult to provide a translated Bible that presents an Accurate Picture.

When I used the word 'dumbed down' I was referring to what was the complete restructuring of the Biblical Narrative so that it would be easy enough for those who read at the 4th grade level. The problem with that is often the correct Picture is not being shown... it is telling us what a 4th Grader can easily understand, and so we lose the point that the Bible was sometimes attempting to explain comples issues, which are glossed over in the dumbed down versions. I suppose this is okay for 4th Graders, but often these children do not put away these "Good News" Editions when they graduate to their Middle Schools and beyond. They form their adult perceptions of Religious Doctrine around what amounts to children's stories.
 
§outh§tar said:
If it wasn't for Luther, you Catholic vermin would still be stealing money from the poor and selling indulgences, something that is NEVER Scriptural and something that your idiot papacy was clearly using to fatten their own pockets. Think again!

EDIT: I can also show you these inaccuracies if you challenge me, but I doubt you want to face the fact.

What you call 'stealing money' was our modern equivalent to 'taxation' and if you would study the issue you would find that 'indulgences' were imposed as something of a luxury tax only on the wealthy.

Does your Secular Atheist Society request taxes of you? Sure it does. But does your Secular Atheist Society make no distinction between rich and poor but especially gouges the poor. Sure it does. So were we better off under Catholic Administration, or with your Secular Atheists?

And yes, you same Secular Atheists are now complaining just as much about Taxes now as you were then. As you destroyed Catholic Government, modern Secular Atheists are just as eager to destroy ANY Government.

This make you all rather like Barbarians. You don't really have an argument, you know.
 
§outh§tar said:
And the Catholic religion is no less idolatrous in venerating human beings and hallucinations than the Protestants? Do you forget how 'dubious' these too are, or are you just having another of your silly double standards?

But the Catholics are venerating Saints full of the Holy Spirit and Apparitions from Heaven, from God. Such is the Stuff of Divine Revelation -- the Source of Religion. It is the Stuff which we should suspect makes you revere the Bible, but which, in the Bible is largely yesterday's news.

My complaint against problems is that they fixate on the yesterday's news while reviling Catholics for listening to God Today.

And is it idolatrous to Worship God directly, to acknowledge the Holy Spirit in the Saints and in the Apparitions. Such things are real. This Worship is Direct. But the Protestant fixation on the Works of Man -- the Bible, is disconcerting. You use an artifact of paper to condemn those who Worship God directly... is that not the HARM of Idolatry?
 
The Devil Inside said:
any religious activity that involves anyone or anything as an intermediary between you, and G-d qualifies as idolatry. period.

Then what is the Holy Spirit but intermediary between God and Man. You seem to be 2000 years behind in your theological purview.

Do you even believe in the Divinity of Christ. What was the Son but an intermediary to the Father?

Then we are to understand from Christ Himself the notion that there would be Ranks and Grades in Heaven. We are told that some would be least in Heaven. The Book of Revelation tells us of those in Heaven close to God and those who are more remote. Those in the City of God and those just outside the Walls though still in Heaven. In such a Graded and Ranked System, we can surely expect some delegation of authority. With Christ sitting at the Right Hand of the Father, we can't expect Christ to be delivering all of His own Messages. The Angels provide the Messenger Services. Remember, that God did not appear directly to either Abraham, Jacob, or even Mary -- God sent His Intermediaries The Angels and His Intermediary The Holy Spirit.

so it seems that your pronouncement that all mediation in Worship is damnable idolatry is without any theological precedent... you just made it up out of your own head without bothering to take a second thought concerning scripture or accustomed Religious Practice.

Also, regarding accustomed Religious Practice, for all those who complain of the Theoretically Shortcomings of Catholic Worship, and the Superiorities of Protestant starkness, they should be reminded that Catholicism has produced scores of Christ-Like Saints through its Devotional Practices, where as Protestantism has now gone 500 years without even arriving at their first Saint, their first person graced with the Holy Spirit of God.
 
Leo Volont said:
But the Catholics are venerating Saints full of the Holy Spirit and Apparitions from Heaven, from God. Such is the Stuff of Divine Revelation -- the Source of Religion. It is the Stuff which we should suspect makes you revere the Bible, but which, in the Bible is largely yesterday's news.

My complaint against problems is that they fixate on the yesterday's news while reviling Catholics for listening to God Today.

And is it idolatrous to Worship God directly, to acknowledge the Holy Spirit in the Saints and in the Apparitions. Such things are real. This Worship is Direct. But the Protestant fixation on the Works of Man -- the Bible, is disconcerting. You use an artifact of paper to condemn those who Worship God directly... is that not the HARM of Idolatry?

You missed my point. You are also venerating men whom you want to assume are full of Spirit and are venerating hallucinations as Divinely authored. Unless you can show otherwise, your position is no less 'idolatrous' than that of Protestantism.
 
Leo Volont said:
What you call 'stealing money' was our modern equivalent to 'taxation' and if you would study the issue you would find that 'indulgences' were imposed as something of a luxury tax only on the wealthy.

Does your Secular Atheist Society request taxes of you? Sure it does. But does your Secular Atheist Society make no distinction between rich and poor but especially gouges the poor. Sure it does. So were we better off under Catholic Administration, or with your Secular Atheists?

And yes, you same Secular Atheists are now complaining just as much about Taxes now as you were then. As you destroyed Catholic Government, modern Secular Atheists are just as eager to destroy ANY Government.

This make you all rather like Barbarians. You don't really have an argument, you know.

What a pitiable demonstration of ignorance! I beg you to pick up a history book and read. Indulgences were a luxury tax "only" on the wealthy? Please provide a historical source of this if you can.
 
Is
anyone
here
listening
to
me
at
all?!?!

Take
out
your
inter-religious
disputes
somewhere
else,
not
in
this
thread!

I
stated
that
"One's faith is to be more than just *depending* on a certain text."
Now
address
this,
please,
will
you?
 
water said:
Is
anyone
here
listening
to
me
at
all?!?!

Take
out
your
inter-religious
disputes
somewhere
else,
not
in
this
thread!

I
stated
that
"One's faith is to be more than just *depending* on a certain text."
Now
address
this,
please,
will
you?

Oh, we're terribly sorry... we all must have forgotten that the whole freakin universe must be revolving around you, and that you would n't be asking this unless you owned the entire internet.
 
§outh§tar said:
What a pitiable demonstration of ignorance! I beg you to pick up a history book and read. Indulgences were a luxury tax "only" on the wealthy? Please provide a historical source of this if you can.

Before I go running off to the history books, answer me this... was the Catholic Church just a Church or was it also THE Government. That will decide right away whether its revenue concerns could be equated to 'taxation'.
 
§outh§tar said:
You missed my point. You are also venerating men whom you want to assume are full of Spirit and are venerating hallucinations as Divinely authored. Unless you can show otherwise, your position is no less 'idolatrous' than that of Protestantism.

Okay, so what is your point now... that we should all be Atheists because there is no such a thing as the Holy Spirit or God.

Tell me that you do not resent the Catholic Church for having what Protestants don't, which is actual individuals who have obviously received the Grace of God.

I suppose you don't even know what a Saint is. It is because you only read Paul and never bother to touch upon anything about Christ or anything Christ ever said. Christ said about his Wonders and Miracles "These things and more my Saints will be able to do". So, yes, the Saints have actually compiled a better record for miracles than Christ. Christ did not levitate. Christ did not bi-locate. But His Saints have.

But you hate the Catholic Church -- the Church of Christ's Saints -- you hate it so much you would rather become an Atheist.

Well, at least you'd be stupid enough.... you'd blend right in with your new friends.
 
oooops Leo....callin another stupid...ie., a fool? call yerself a christian? the mouth of hell yawns waiting for your wretched soul
 
leo.....i am not a christian...haha......
i dont invalidate any practice that brings you closer to G-d, i was merely pointing out the fact that "direct communication" between G-d and Moses took place, and it was explicitly pointed out that "miracles and signs" that come from men have a history of leading men down a path that Christians, Jews, and Muslims should avoid, if they remain true to the scriptures.

i also believe that faith has more to do with actual experience than what some book says..... but one should definitely take the texts into consideration when discussing said beliefs.....

it is strange how someone who can insult so quickly will oftentimes use the addage "made up" or "you are wrong".

i never said anyone was wrong, i just pointed out an inconsistency between a few scriptures, and actual practice.

read what someone says, and attempt to understand it, before you decide to insult or condemn....
 
Leo Volont said:
Before I go running off to the history books, answer me this... was the Catholic Church just a Church or was it also THE Government. That will decide right away whether its revenue concerns could be equated to 'taxation'.

It was the religious establishment first, and then the government.

Or do you forget that if the Catholic Church didn't hold a monopoly over doctrine, forgiveness, and so on.. it wouldn't have had the authority it had over kings who feared excommunication and the laiety?

In that respect, 'taxation' is NOT what it was.

Indulgences were the commutation for money of part of the temporal penalty due for sin, of the practical satisfaction that was a part of thesacrament of penance, which also required contrition on the part of the penitent and absolution from a priest. They were granted on papal authority and made available through accredited agents.

This is obviously NOT the same as taxation in either case. So you can go get your history books.

Sorry water, what were you saying?
 
Leo Volont said:
Oh, we're terribly sorry... we all must have forgotten that the whole freakin universe must be revolving around you, and that you would n't be asking this unless you owned the entire internet.

She's right you Catholic. And water doesn't need to own the entire internet in order to narrow the direction of a simple thread so check your logic before spewing more of that Catholic dogma. What a silly retort!
 
Leo Volont said:
Okay, so what is your point now... that we should all be Atheists because there is no such a thing as the Holy Spirit or God.

Tell me that you do not resent the Catholic Church for having what Protestants don't, which is actual individuals who have obviously received the Grace of God.

A.K.A. Individuals who claimed to have recieved the grace of God! :rolleyes:

I suppose you don't even know what a Saint is. It is because you only read Paul and never bother to touch upon anything about Christ or anything Christ ever said. Christ said about his Wonders and Miracles "These things and more my Saints will be able to do". So, yes, the Saints have actually compiled a better record for miracles than Christ. Christ did not levitate. Christ did not bi-locate. But His Saints have.

All you have to do is prove Jesus said that.

But you hate the Catholic Church -- the Church of Christ's Saints -- you hate it so much you would rather become an Atheist.

Well, at least you'd be stupid enough.... you'd blend right in with your new friends.

Any idiot willing to submit to man deserves hell anyway.. off with you!
 
water said:
Today, we have many versions or editions of the Bible -- The King James Bible, The New International Bible, different "scientific and historically correct" versions, etc., not to mention the many translations into different languages and all the difficulties inherent to translations.

It confuses me.

Which Bible is the right Bible -- which Bible is one to adhere to?
I agree with your conclusion: one is not to adhere to any specific Bible or translation -- one's faith should not rest on a certain translation, just as meaning does not rest on one translation of a particular word. That's because it isn't only words that are translated, but a whole foreign culture and context, complete with idioms, expressions and associations. If one is trying to pass on a message across culture and time, it is necessary to preserve its meaning and content, and make it resilient somehow. Including different traditions and contexts is one way of doing this.

Theoretically and ideally, there is to be one Bible, and one alone. We could say that all those different versions and editions are approximates of this ideal Bible.

But thereby, our practical problem -- which Bible to sit down with and study and consider *the* Holy Bible -- remains.
The answer to that problem would depend on your needs -- that's why so many translations are still done, apart from the "authoritative" ones that incorporate newer translation techniques and interpretative methods.

For example, one can read a paraphrase -- a Bible that tries to preserve the intended meaning in a contemporary context. A good example of such a translation is The Message. Another type of translation is the literal (word-for-word) translation, which tries to present the most direct translations without "interpreting" anything, preserving the orignal tense and word usage. An example would be Young's Literal translation.

Of course there are also various degrees inbetween, trying to maintain a balance between literal accuracy and idiomatic accuracy. These editions often include alternative translations in the text, and extensive cross reference information. The Amplified Bible and the Afrikaans Multitranslation Bible attempt to incorporate as much scholarly knowledge into as close a translation as can be managed. For more indepth research, a good concordance and reference materials are indispensible, and of course knowledge of the original languages. It's a matter of understanding a foreign language and culture, compounded by the importance of understanding them.

None of these will make up for a belief that everybody is lying. They're all equally useful, or they're all equally rubbish.

Those Christians who cling on to the text of the Bible -- what would happen if they would use some other version or edition of the Bible?
Would their *faith* be diminished? Changed? Questioned?
That will depend how much stock they place in a certain interpretation. But normally a specific translation isn't even necessary for that. A person's emphasis will reflect on how he reads the Bible, which passages he reads, and what he prefers to hear -- no matter which Bible he's reading. The challenge is always to overcome such prejudices, because they are usually more threatening to their faith than a particular translation. An example is the Genesis-evolution debate.

And what about non-Christians who use the Bible to prove their points?
There are discrepancies between the different versions and editions of the Bible. What about arguments that are based on these discrepancies? Are such arguments valid?
These discrepancies are usually very easy to prioritize. Certain "translations" do propose different doctrines, such as the Jehova's Witnesses New World Translation that translates John 1:1 as "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god," to support their particular theology. Any alternative translation would certainly threaten their faith.

Because no major doctrine depends on one verse alone, there is no danger that one loose sleeper could derail the whole train, so to speak. Different translations do not easily give a different message, and the implications of a certain passage can easily be cross-examined within the Bible itself. It's not circular self-reference, as some would say, because the Bible was not written by one person at one time. For this reason, Jews would regularly refer to scripture to provide a context and lend credibility to their words -- in effect saying "look for yourselves".

I say that clinging strictly to the biblical text (of whichever version or edition) as the source of one's faith or argument is a try to put the *responsibility* for one's own faith or argument into someone else's hands.
This is not about translation or meaning anymore, but the testimony of the people themselves. Our knowledge of the events is dependent on their testimonies, to a great extent. Their message had to reach us somehow. But for the demands of faith -- and the original authors knew this -- belief cannot remain purely literary. Words have to correspond to meaning and truth at some point or they are to remain, very literally, empty lies.

There is more at stake here than just historical data, and that's something that cannot be emphasized enough. For preserved testimonies, the Bible is indispensible for faith, but it only supports and encourages faith -- it is no substitute for it.
 
Last edited:
Jenyar said:
An example is the Genesis-evolution debate.

Just wondering Jenyar, if you could tell us your position on that. Also do you believe the Bible to be inerrant?

This is not about translation or meaning anymore, but the testimony of the people themselves. Our knowledge of the events is dependent on their testimonies, to a great extent. Their message had to reach us somehow. But for the demands of faith -- and the original authors knew this -- belief cannot remain purely literary. Words have to correspond to meaning and truth at some point or they are to remain, very literally, empty lies.

Faith in what?
 
water said:
But can't you see where knowing that all these versions and editions exist leads?!


1. One should not base one's whole faith on a text, and treat that text as the *source* of one's *faith*.
Faith must transcend the text, whichever version the text is.

Same question: Faith in what?


3. As for few people being able to read the old writings in the old languages: I do not think this matters at all. Those of old were people, we are people, and we cannot do as if one were more or better than other.
Thinking them as "knowing better", we thereby also say that we are less then them, and with that automatically put ourselves into a position of false piousness.
Thinking ourselves as "knowing better", we discredit the people of old and we also discredit what they left us. So what is the point in calling upon a text from their times and their language anyway?!

I'm quite sure I "know better" than others when I don't pretend there aren't theological interpolations in the texts. I also don't pretend to know what should be interpreted as allegorical and whatshould be interpreted as literal. I also know better than to assume writers are inspired when they themselves based their faith on hearsay, secondhand information.Therefore I know better than to make assumptions on faith (faith in what?) that their message is (essentially) true.
 
Back
Top