Hey M*W!! I had just told this to NDS--but please don't go in circles--I, nor you, have the time to repeat everything we say. I'm not saying that to be offensive, but honest.
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M*W: Sometimes when reading a reply to another member, there can be something lost in translation. I assure you I have read all of NDS's posts as well as yours. I appreciate your effort, and I do understand about the value of time and effort.
Ok--for the last time (I hope)--No one has told me anything, I didn't go to Bible training school to convince myself to read the Bible, I didn't have a voice from Heaven come down and whisper things into my ears. I chose to read the Bible open mindedly. Is that really difficult to comprehend? Why shouldn't I be open minded? Because I don't carry all the presuppositions you carry? When I read the Bible with an open-mind--using my mind which is half intellect/half emotion--I concluded that it was the Word of God. Why is that so unfathomable?
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M*W: Thank you for your honest answers. It is not "unfathomable" for me to understand
that is what you believe. It would be "unfathomable" for me to believe it. Do you understand what I am trying to say? I fully understand why christians believe what they do, and why they do, but it's just not
something I believe any longer.
Well he didn't make us gods. If we had His knowledge we would be equal with God. But we have a lot of similar characteristics like we are creative, loving, etc. Plus we are separated by sin. We are His creation. His creation choose to rebel (hence the free will), and thats were sin comes in. We are separated by sin from understanding the things of God.
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M*W: Interestingly, that is what Roman catholicism taught (separated by sin). My question to you would then be, how does the idea of sin compare from christians to atheists? I have a different idea of what sin means now than I did when I was a christian. To my understanding, the concept of sin has evolved all the way from ancient sun worship, through the RCC, through the outcomes of the Reformation, through post-modern thought and beyond. The concept of sin today is not what it was when it was originally invented by ancient humans. "Sin" is a place of darkness where thoughts, ideas, actions and repercussions are not clear. "Sin" was originally thought of as the degrees of distance from the light of life. It didn't necessarily mean such things as murder, theft, adultery, etc. It's original concept was focused more on the inability of crops to grow, danger coming from the elements, mistakes made in predator-prey association. You get the drift. In modern society, "sin" has taken on a whole new meaning: murder, rape, robbery, adultery, incest, failing to tithe, drugs, alcohol and substance abuse, for example. Not that I personally condone any of these modern "sins," I prefer to study how sin came about and why it still impacts our psyche today? We're no longer afraid of the elements (unless you live on the Gulf Coast or Atlantic Seaboard, or out west with El Nino, or the Plains States in tornado alley, or the far North and its snow and ice). Those were ancient human concerns of performing rituals to avoid. Today some may have remorse for murder, rape or incest, but others continue to commit these atrocities repeatedly. I'd rather see these things as criminal acts and forget they may be thought of as "sin."
Then its not faith its fact. And faith is a gift. So you would want God to reveal himself to a certain group of people? Sounds to me like you are not being very compassionate.
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M*W: Actually, I am very compassionate, but then that's not Medicine*Woman's persona is it? So as long as I'm here, I'll transcribe Medicine*Woman's blunt truths.
Please I beg of you to read Matthew 20:1-15. Will you please be opn-minded about it? Tell me if you read it.
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M*W: I have read it, and I read it open-mindedly when I was a christian. But, I'll have Medicine*Woman read it and give you her answer.
M*W has read Matthew 20:1-15, and highlighted the meaningful words for interpretation:
[1] "For the
kingdom of heaven is like a
landowner who went out early in the
morning to hire men to work in his
vineyard.
The "kingdom of heaven" represents the Constellations surrounding the zodiac. The "landowner" represents god. The "vineyard" represents the "fruit of man's (humans') labor. Let's say for this parable it's spiritual labor.
[2] He agreed to pay them a denarius for the
day and sent them into his
vineyard.
The day represents a time-span in the movement of the Constellations around the sun (god). The "vineyard" again is man's spiritual labors. In other words, what he does to get himself into the heavens to be with the sun=god.
[3] "About the
third hour he went out and saw others
standing in the marketplace doing nothing.
The third hour shows the continued movement of the constellation around the sun. The parable doesn't suggest if it is planting time or reaping time, but that probably is insignificant to the parable. Those other "men" standing in the marketplace are the other constellations in the zodiac.
[4] He told them, `You also go and work in my
vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is
right.'
"Vineyard" now suggests to me that the season is the time for reaping the "fruit of man's labors." The payment is a place for the Constellations+Sun (man and god) to be together in "heaven."
[5] So they went. "He went out again about the
sixth hour and the
ninth hour and did the same thing.
The sixth and ninth hours show progression of the movement around the sun toward dusk or as the night sky is approaching. The parable suggests that it is the sun moving and the constellations are staying stationary. Since the Earth moves around the sun giving us daylight and darkness, we are looking at the constellations from the opposite view of which they are usually interpreted. In other words, upside down, so the movement of the constellations moves backwards to those of us on Earth. Not that this matters for this parable.
[6] About the
eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, `Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
The "others" are the remaining constellations in the zodiac. God=sun is metaphorically talking to the constellations (possibly those that our 'out of season' to see why they are dormant). It references the seasons of the year and the time movements of the seasons. Not all the "men" were "hired" because they were not visible to the writer of this parable.
[7] "`Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, `You also go and work in my
vineyard.'
The "landowner"=god=sun, makes it clear that all the "men"=constellations will be hired in "their own time." They will be put to work, i.e. visible when the time has come for them.
[8] "When
evening came, the
owner of the
vineyard said to his
foreman, `Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the
last ones hired and going on to the
first.'
The "foreman" I assume is Jesus=sun-of-god who "pays their wages." The parable is about the 'fairness' of reaping the "gifts." Again, I believe this parable is referring to "spiritual gifts." I am not saying that I believe this parable is factual but metaphorical.
[9] "The workers who were hired about the
eleventh hour came and each received a denarius.
[10] So when those came who were hired
first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.
The two above segments of the parable want to show how the timing of man's spiritual labors is not as important as the reaping of the fruit of the labors. One man=constellation can have a thousand bushels of fruit and another man=constellation can have one bushel of fruit, but they are equal in the "landowner"-god's eyes, in the eyes of the "foreman"-Jesus-sun-of-god, and their equal right to being the constellations and near to the sun in heaven.
[11] When they received it, they began to grumble against the
landowner.
[12] `These men who were hired last worked only
one hour,' they said, `and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the
heat of the day.'
Of course, the "heat of the day" refers to the longer association with the sun=god.
[13] "But he answered one of them, `Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?
In this analogy, a "denarius" could metaphorically represent "salvation" or association with god=sun.
[14] Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired
last the same as I gave you.
[15] Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
The previous two are more or less astro-theologically self-explanatory. Jealousy is a "sin." It has no place in "heaven" or the sky. Jealousy resides in the darkness which is where the concept of "sin" originated.
"Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the
kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the
kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:2-4 is interesting because becoming like a little child is like being an atheist. Babies are born atheists. They are conditioned to believe there are sky gods (planets, constellations, elements, etc.). Children have the innocence of youth... that wide-eyed awe that twinkles in their eyes when we read them fairy tales.
Are you sure your eyes aren't closed? Don't let me be your judge but God.
Well, Jim, you wouldn't be able to judge me in any court but your very own. I'm not worried about others' judgments of me! My eyes were once closed, but now they're open, and I can see clearly what the truth is. Like the parable in Matthew 20:1-15 says, everyone is equal, the timing doesn't matter. The second parable tells us to be like little children with an open-mind, one that can be filled with awe and inspiration of the truth and not tales of fiction.
"Your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls." 1 Peter 1:7-9
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M*W: Aside from the preaching, I wasn't exactly "tested by fire." I was tested by a thirst for knowledge.
Please read my previous post about how faith in God is the only method by which Christ could have provided redemption for all of humanity. He is not going to force us to love Him. He did not make us robots. He will not provide overwhelming evidence so we have to believe. He gave us a simple free will.
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M*W: As I pointed out in my interpretations of Matthew 20:1-15 and Matthew 18:2-4, there are no gods forcing me to do anything. I don't have that concern, but I do have free will just like you, but I use it with my own discretion.
If its so easy to have faith--then why are you struggling so?
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M*W: I'm not struggling for myself, but because I am a compassionate person, my struggle (my jihad) is for people who believe lies. It's so useless and hopeless.
And besides--the wisdom of the Bible can take more than a lifetime to learn. Which was the exact intention. And wisdom is not blind faith.
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M*W: Prose and poetry offer a lot of wisdom, too, and it doesn't take as long to understand its meaning. I agree. Wisdom is not blind faith. It also takes a lifetime to gain wisdom. It's called "old age."
Okay so this is your faith. Why do you choose to believe in this rather than the truths of Scripture? I am so glad you finally admitted to this.
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M*W: I don't have a religious faith. What did I admit to? I said I understand your faith and why you believe it. I don't have that faith. It didn't leave me. I chunked it out a long time ago. I was in control of that relationship's demise.
What if you are wrong? Where does the Bible say you will go?
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M*W: It matters not. Did you read my post on becoming worm food? I'm looking forward to that salvific experience.
In all honesty I think it is foolishness to believe that. And you have no credibility to believe this. You are trusting the fate of your soul, the lives of your children and the very cause of your existence to a simple made-up belief.
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M*W: Credibility is relative. You think I have no credibility, and I think you don't have credibility either. I chose the most credible stance I could find through years of research.
See how much value simple faith has?
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M*W: Not really. I have faith in balancing my bank account. I have faith in my skills and experience to deliver healthy babies and mothers. I have faith in my friends, and they have faith in me -- even the christian ones. And most certainly I have faith in my family. BTW, what does the life of my children have to do with anything?
What is really holding you back M*W?
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M*W: The lies of christianity.
