Believing in but not loving Him

(Q), dont you you ever get the feeling that someone supreme is deciding our faiths but might not understand humankind.
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I believe God can cause humans to be deceived. But this is because they have rejected the truth of God. So we have the initial ability to recognize God through the words, the life, the Message of Jesus. If one rejects Jesus then God will give such a one up to deception. That they will believe in a lie (false faiths).

The thing is, as i said before, many people reject "a jesus" while never having had the chance to accept the "real Jesus". As a limited human being it is very hard for me to know if someone is rejecting a false Jesus or if someone is rejecting the True Jesus.

Now there is a poster on this forum who claims that he has been blinded by God. Well he might just be blinded by God? But i cannot make that call. So i will continue witnessing to whomsoever will read. God knows the truth.




If God does not understand why we act the way we do and blame us for the fall why must we pay for being created in a way that He could have altered.

God understands why we act the way we do. Its because we have come to the knowledge of Good and Evil. And He has made a Way for us to be restored to Him in eternity. Now they Way is simple but also very difficult for some. All we have to do is acknowledge our need for a savior and accept Jesus as that savior. To the Meek who hate sin that is easy but to the proud who seek to be self justified that is very hard.



Im sad to say it but it seems like either way it comes down to it we just seem to be for his study(I doubt enjoyment) and not our own.Is God trying to learn something from us but just doesnt like what He sees and desperately tries to fix it hoping we will become something "nobler" so He can say thats also me. Im sorry.
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You think the universe is somehow an experiment by God? That He is trying to learn something from our existence? I cannot agree God knows all things.

No need to be sorry. Nothing you have said has offended me. Your questions are legitimate questions of a seeker :) You seem to have been thinking quite a bit on God. Many people don't even bother to think about God.

Blessings to you Samaritan. Oh and i love your name. The Samaritan loved His neighbor.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Samaritan,


The way I see it, you are tangled up into your own idea of what faith in God SHOULD LOOK LIKE.
This SHOULD is a terrible slave driver. It makes you constantly doubt yourself (and probably others as well). And nothing can appease it. No theology, no argument.

I don't think your problems here are of theological nature, and this is also why they cannot be solved with theological arguments.

You must know that if you let yourself be guided by this your idea of what faith in God *should* be, then you are in effect valuing your own judgment higher than God's.



~water~
 
Samaritan said:
duendy, your answer was well put but you said your deep in it, do you mean God is not part of the "dogmatic" religions, but something more integrated with who we truly are, like nature and our needs?

duendy:.....Yes. i have been very intersted about such as tis etc for years. have always loved to ask questions and not just follow--tho of ourse i have been sucked into some daft avenues, but u live and learn dont you

what we KNOWis Nature. we are born IN Nature, and are nurtured by Nature. w get our clothes, warmth, food, air...ypu name it from Nature, we ARE Nature.......
we always here of 'God' ...very rarely 'Goddess'. ever wondered why? well when you explore this you find that the pople of the 'God', who wrote the books glorifying a transedent 'creator'god' have pinched much of teir IMAGERY etc from the much more ancinent mythology of the Goddess......in the Goddess Stream tingsare much different. for Goddess is not just transcendent, her body IS Nature. hence th extremely anceint concept of 'Mother' Earth. as in Nature in its female form...most creatures, birth Nature

tis is not to do away wit the masculine role mind. In the Goddess mythology she has a 'son'lover....there are many associations what this means, ranging from sUn, the fertilizing power of men wit their jutting erect dicks...hehe...the vital force of wild Nature, the sacreed mushroom which gives inspiration into Her/Natures secrets....and so on. Goddess mythology was more preliteral, and poetically associatative. it is the patriarchs who were first to set myth in stone wit inflexile text that becomes THE 'Word' one MUSt obey...or else!

so what i mean by me being deep. is that i am not the type of anti''
god' who becomes an athiest and has no time for the potential for ecstasy, and sense of expansion with Nature--which of course includes the universe (it is the ptriarchs who separated-psychologically-Nature/body from universe, denigrating the former)

THAT is God ifyou will. not some daft cartoon figure writ about god knows when which is archaic and has no modern reference. and which causes conflict between poples who have thier own 'God'

NATUREis shared by ALL, and must be the CONNECTING factor. i call tis feeling, being EARTHED. ie., you can have both poisitve and negative but we also need to be EArthed. otherwise we forget the hand that feeds us and get lost in all kinds of none-sense







But thats the thing you cant put it to rest, thats what you're taught faith in God is all you have you, even if you commit great crimes such as rape and murder, faith can get you through it. Loosing faith is the greatest crime against God. Like Adstar wrote




(Q), dont you you ever get the feeling that someone supreme is deciding our faiths but might not understand humankind. If God does not understand why we act the way we do and blame us for the fall why must we pay for being created in a way that He could have altered. Im sad to say it but it seems like either way it comes down to it we just seem to be for his study(I doubt enjoyment) and not our own. Is God trying to learn something from us but just doesnt like what He sees and desperately tries to fix it hoping we will become something "nobler" so He can say thats also me. Im sorry.
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmn
 
I believe God can cause humans to be deceived. But this is because they have rejected the truth of God.

Or, they were under the impression of gods truth, but couldn't know for sure simply because gods truth is so ambiguous from person to person. If he deceives those, after first confusing them, he is by far and away and unjust god who merely plays games with people and then casts them aside.

Certainly not a god worthy of worship.

So we have the initial ability to recognize God through the words, the life, the Message of Jesus.

No, we don't. If we did, there would be no confusion, nor would there be many different versions of Christianity.

As a limited human being it is very hard for me to know if someone is rejecting a false Jesus or if someone is rejecting the True Jesus.

Then, the same should apply to you.
 
So we have the initial ability to recognize God through the words, the life, the Message of Jesus.

No, we don't. If we did, there would be no confusion, nor would there be many different versions of Christianity.
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John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

People who take pleasures in evil have teachers that tell them evil is good.

People want to be approved for what they approve not condemned for it.

satan provides worldly approval through worldly churches/ religions/ philosophies . People don't just want to be free to do the evil they want to think that their evil is approved by God. There is a big market out their for false teachings. Where there is a demand you will always find a supplier.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

People who take pleasures in evil have teachers that tell them evil is good.

People want to be approved for what they approve not condemned for it.

satan provides worldly approval through worldly churches/ religions/ philosophies . People don't just want to be free to do the evil they want to think that their evil is approved by God. There is a big market out their for false teachings. Where there is a demand you will always find a supplier.
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But some that dont believe are not evil. They have a sense of moral value, and still believe in doing the right thing. I am not looking to reject God based on some lust that I want indulge in. I dont really know the saying but Im aware of that "cant have the whole cake" and thats why if I choose to leave I will leave completely and stake out on my own path, but goodness is not limited to merely believers in God, faith might be. Mabye I misread your post since your earlier posts show a tolerance of everything.
 
satan provides worldly approval through worldly churches/ religions/ philosophies . People don't just want to be free to do the evil they want to think that their evil is approved by God.

What does evil and satan have to do with ones choice in the various choices of Christianity. You chose one version, does that make you evil? You don't really know if you chose the correct version. That is the point. Everyone thinks they chose the correct version, just like you.
 
Samaritan said:
But thats the thing you cant put it to rest, thats what you're taught faith in God is all you have you, even if you commit great crimes such as rape and murder, faith can get you through it. Loosing faith is the greatest crime against God.
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Why are you worried that you will loose your faith?

Maybe it's fear? Fear can bring up dilemmas that seems impossible to solve, since the fear itself is the dilemma, we should not fear! What does nearly all angels say when they appear in the Bible? Do not fear!

Love has no fear, fear is thus a sign that you need love or are in a environment that has little love or do not encourage love.

Love is the way. When you see that and seek love then you'll feel better, the world feels less depressing. Love between a man and a woman is not the only love, you can love friends, parents, relatives, God (most important), you can love doing good to others and love yourself etc. etc.

If you can't right now feel any love for God, then that is what you should seek for. God loves you, so what do you need in order to love God? Don't you know He is the one true God? That He is the King of kings? That He is the one who knows it all? That can heal your wounds and wipe the tears from your eyes? That brings light to your heart and let you see the sun rise? That made you. That made and cares about everyone you know. We love Him because He loved us first. Don't you trust His love in you?

You say you can only love whom you know? Do you know yourself? Then can't you love all? God knows you, you know God because He created you. But you have to let go of all that fear and be humble, when you feel love you know God because God is love and you should love Him.
 
Samaritan said:
But some that dont believe are not evil. They have a sense of moral value, and still believe in doing the right thing. I am not looking to reject God based on some lust that I want indulge in. I dont really know the saying but Im aware of that "cant have the whole cake" and thats why if I choose to leave I will leave completely and stake out on my own path, but goodness is not limited to merely believers in God, faith might be. Mabye I misread your post since your earlier posts show a tolerance of everything.
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"But some that dont believe are not evil."

Isaiah 64:
6 But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

No man is Good. Not One. So therefore we all do evil, think evil and say evil.

This is a basic statement that a lot of people cannot accept, maybe your one of them Samaritan?



"Im aware of that "cant have the whole cake" and thats why if I choose to leave"

What is having the "whole cake" in relation to God? What do you mean? What is the whole cake?



"Mabye I misread your post since your earlier posts show a tolerance of everything."

Well tolerance means different things to different people. Could you quote where i was showing tolerance? It would help me understand what you mean by tolerance.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
we should not fear! What does nearly all angels say when they appear in the Bible? Do not fear!
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This isn't actually true. The most important thing to the god of the bible is that man fear him. Maybe you haven't read it yet, but he states that man must fear him several hundred times. One such occurence is when Abraham is told to kill his son. His son is only 'saved' because Abraham fears god. No mention of love, just fear.

"Do not harm him, for now I know you fear god".

Simply put, you're wrong.

God (most important)
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This is what I find most disgusting with christians and religious folk. How you could even consider putting your children below a cloud fairy is beyond me. It's no surprise mankind are so fucked up when a parent puts love for his own children second.
 
Samaritan
I have never heard anything so worth pity. Do you really wake up in the morning and think about God and not care? You think God is full of shit? I feel sorry for you, and feel no shame in telling you that. I pity you.
Imagine watching a movie, or even experiencing in real life, a man and woman deeply, deeply in love. One day, one of them does something wrong and is caught. The judge says the penalty is death, unless someone is willing to die in their place. The other lover steps up and says "I will go." This person was blameless and had done nothing wrong. Would the accused lover who was condemned not care?
It's close to the same thing. When someone dies for you, you should care. If you believe there is a God, but do not love him, you need to research him and learn about him. Read the Bible and even other "holy" books just to get a main idea. Read what some other people think, go to a few church services and talk to believers. You need to find some way to reconcile why you don't care and why that is wrong.
 
Look at us, we have two sides of an issue, a confused lamb walks in our mist, and both sides start giving advise of his conscience.

Samaritan no doubt your a bit confused, and coming from a psychological stand, I determine that your strugle is between your rational mind, and the irrationality you apperently have become aware of religious dogma.

SouthStar has not been posting lately, since Sciforums went down a few months ago, it was down for almost a month, before it returned. Anyhow I've not seen anything from him in quite a while. Perhaps he moved on to better things, I think he was into building computers and the such, who knows. But I do have something for you. And it conserns SouthStar's post of turning face, from "defender of the faith" to completely rejecting it. He too came at a cross road, but he found his own way, as one must do for these things. On his own. Keep reading the bible, you just may reach the conclusions that he did.

Here's his "sciforum famous" turning point post. click

Let it be from the lion's mouth that you read what he said, instead of others telling you what happened to him.

Godless
 
if you dont love GOD... im sure thats fine.. but dont expect him to love you.

thats what hell would be for... all his bad children.

-MT
 
So god is not all-loving?

You know, if my daughter didn't love me, I would still love her as much as I do now. I certainly wouldn't send her to a place full of fire and watch her burn for eternity.

That is why I am a better parent than god could ever be.
 
ONE has to think.... if we are manifestations, as GODS children...

what does GOD collect after our death???

our memories....


and so... its a matter of what GOD WANTS TO REMMEMBER...

lives of good, loving, decent, caring people...

or the lives of selfish, greedy, adultourous people, who all their lives express hate for GOD....

WHY would god want to collect such memories... ????

-MT

WE CANNOT PERSONNAFY GOD... he is not a little human.. he made the universe and all that is in it...

to GOD... its a matter of harvests.... harvests of good children...

not the rotten apples. they have memories of hating GOD.

-MT
 
I wont say that this mystifies me, but I will say that it annoys me. Many times in life, you end up as your only ally; you can trust in yourself, you know that you are you and know what you feel. Despite this, guilt and lies are still there and I see many people who are so quick to blame themselves when things go wrong.

It is my fault! I am the reason things are going to hell. I am weak, selfish, stupid, you name it and if it's negative then it sure sounds like me.

How much do we believe this?

Many a time we do it just to get the reply we want from someone else, for someone to say the opposite, to praise us. When we say it to ourselves it is just another way of making things simpler. After all, it is so easy to blame things on oneself, to hate oneself. When things are going wrong and you feel bad, you're always there; you're the one feeling the pain so it's so simple to carry the burden yourself, at the expense of everything good that is going on in your life and all the potential you possess.

Well I'm sick of seeing it and I'm sick of hearing it. People berating themselves to the point they become sick and miserable with it. Just what in the fuck are you playing at?

There's only one more step you can take to do anything more stupid and that's committing suicide. It's bloody rediculous, to not only have things that bother you external to yourself but to create even more hurt and more burden yourself. What possible fucking good does it do? What good could it ever do for anybody?

Sure, you're useless, you're selfish, you're a loser; whatever you say; let's ignore the fact that you are only ever any of those things when you tell yourself that you are. After all, perspective is a thing that encompasses all. In Israel you have the Palastinians dying every day over land that is supposed to be holy; each man that dies is revered as a martyr, a servant of God whom is deserving of the highest plateau of the afterlife. On the other hand, you could say that these people are dying for sweet fuck all, that there is no god and that none of those whom lose their lives will go to anywhere else after death. It's all about perspective and perspective changes with time, if you allow yourself to change it.

All my life I have tried to see things in black and white, ignorant of the shades of grey in between. You are either right or you are wrong, you can't be a bit of both. I think that's changing in me now, slowly but surely as I realise that without the grey my vision of the world is far more simple and absolute than reality really is. Seeing in black and white is dangerous. Think about that next time you want to feel like the biggest moron on Earth. Roll around the idea in your head, the idea that to be able to call yourself one thing is to be capable of being another. Your state of mind is no more fixed than your future, no more fixed than the direction of the wind.

Stop beating yourself up.

If anything is going to make you a loser, hurting yourself will.
 
Mosheh Thezion said:
ONE has to think.... if we are manifestations, as GODS children...

what does GOD collect after our death???

our memories....


and so... its a matter of what GOD WANTS TO REMMEMBER...

lives of good, loving, decent, caring people...

or the lives of selfish, greedy, adultourous people, who all their lives express hate for GOD....

WHY would god want to collect such memories... ????

-MT

WE CANNOT PERSONNAFY GOD... he is not a little human.. he made the universe and all that is in it...

to GOD... its a matter of harvests.... harvests of good children...

not the rotten apples. they have memories of hating GOD.

-MT
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you seem to be under the mis-guided reasoning that people without belief hate, your god.
how can they hate that which, does not exist to them, that is just plainly infantile.
thats like you saying, you hate the easter bunny.
reasonable people dont hate a god, they dislike the stupidity that comes out of the mouths of the religious, such as your post above, empty.
 
OK... SOME HATE...

some just hate the idea...

some just dont like it...

some just dont want to believe...

some dont care either way...

SO.. with memories like that.... why would GOD want to collect them??

and its not MY GOD..... ITS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.

i am his property.

-MT
 
SAMARITAN (if you are still around this forum),

I feel you. It is painful, but i hope you are doing what Meister Eckhart called, "leaving God for God". I consider this the leaving of other people's beliefs, their recycled reverence, for your own. They may not be the same but they will be yours, and you have to take comfort in that - you won't just be expressing someone else's thought's on God.
I looked at this experience as the end of the path, until I realized that it was really the beginning of a new path - mine. Honestly, sometimes i still feel the way you might right now, but I trust that when the time comes for me to have to understand, I will understand, so I haven't given up on the process.

Don't hate yourself for being honest - if you search for the truth, and it doesn't set you free, well, you were just trying to follow what you thought was a reliable source of direction.
 
*ONE has to think.... if we are manifestations, as GODS children...

what does GOD collect after our death???

our memories....*

Get over yourself delusion, as if the creator of all existence, time, and the universe would be interested in a minimal nano-second of your existence compared to its eternal existence. This is arrogant to believe that such a being if it exist would be worried about knowing you, or collecting any freaking memory of you insignificant little time you spent here, on this far away planet of the milky way galaxy, in an endless sea of galaxies, and perhaps other life bearing planets, that this guy will even pay attention to you, is nothing more than a delusion of grandeur.


*and so... its a matter of what GOD WANTS TO REMMEMBER...

lives of good, loving, decent, caring people...

or the lives of selfish, greedy, adultourous people, who all their lives express hate for GOD.*

God the entity who's very existence is questionable does not remember anything, he supposedly knew beforehand even before we existed wether they be good people or bad people, fact is he designed it so, if god is to be omniscient, it had forknowledge of every mood, of every individual that has ever existed, and that will ever exist. But why would this entity even care, when there seems to be a paradox of evil, in the world this is a contradiction of benevolent god, there's no benevolence of this god, other than shit happens and each deals with it as best we can.

Contradiction:

WE CANNOT PERSONNAFY GOD... he is not a little human.. he made the universe and all that is in it...
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------------------------------------Vs------------------------------------

to GOD... its a matter of harvests.... harvests of good children...

not the rotten apples. they have memories of hating GOD.
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You my friend contradit yourself by first claiming that one can't personnafy god, but yet you personafy him fit to your conclusions, of an entity you obviously know nothing about, only what you are led to believe by others. How do you know that this hypothetic entity collects anything?


*OK... SOME HATE...

some just hate the idea...

some just dont like it...

some just dont want to believe...

some dont care either way...

SO.. with memories like that.... why would GOD want to collect them??

and its not MY GOD..... ITS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.

i am his property.*

I dont waste my time hating anything that has to do with a hypothetical entity whos existence is doubtfull even in the minds of some scholar theists.

I don't hate ideas, I only dislike the fact that it is thrown at us, and in the early years of religiousity it was even forced upon the gentile to believe such nonsense or be considered a heretic, put to jail, burned at the stake, and violently killed for deffering in opinion.

What is it to like? Look at your theistic historical facts, nothing but damnation of humans for being human.

Theist have not shown anything tangible to believe in their doctrine, basically it is what we call "blind faith".

Most of us do care, specially when the law of the land is being manipulated by religious ideals, and false sense of morals.

And with memories like these, don't we justify truly living free? Free of opression by cohersion manipulated by fear of "the unknown" death.

And wether god exists or not, if he is just and moral all atheist that lived a moral life will end up in heaven anyway. :p

It is better to live your life as if there are no gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.
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click



LOL..

Godless
 
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