Believers Beware

by the way everyone, MacM or not....in May 2008 the results of the gravity B probe will be published, the ones testing Einsteins general relativity equations.

http://einstein.stanford.edu/

You might be surprised to learn I do not object to the results of either SR or GR. They are useful mathetical tools but frankly I do object to the unilateral assumption that they prove Einsteins view. They do not.

The reason is simple. The results ARE NOT the exclusive property of his theories. There are alternative explanations which preclude the embarrassing conclusions of his theories which prohibit FTL but produce it. Or that results in one getting closer to an object the faster they fly away from it. Or having two clock BOTH ticking slower than the other,etc.

On this last issue that is merely a perception or illusion of motion. The reality is (as recorded thousands of times over the past 100+ years of testing) ONLY the clock that experiences F = ma acceleration to create relative velocity records less time. Hence data suggests a form of absolute motion universally affects the clock and not merely relative velocity between clock as predicted by SR.

BTW this view is further supported by a study of the ansitrophy of muon decay in the earth's atmosphere.

The earth's velocity to the CMB was properly calculated using muon ansitrophy and not velocity relative to earth.
 
MacM:

Let me see if I can work out what you're doing.

For simplicity, let's assume you accelerate your car from 0 to 108 km/hr in 10 seconds.

108 km/hr is conveniently v=30 m/s.

The gamma factor at that speed is

$$\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-(v/c)^2}}$$

Since v is very small compared to the speed of light, we can approximate this as:

$$\gamma \approx 1 +\frac{1}{2}\left(\frac{v}{c}\right)^2$$

I think this is what you were doing with your formula.

Plugging in the numbers v=30 m/s and c = 300,000,000 m/s, we have

$$\gamma = 1.000000000000005$$

Now consider, say, a galaxy that is 100 million light years away when you're at 30 m/s, as measured in the reference frame of the car.

At a speed of 30 m/s, the distance to the galaxy is d (as measured by you, in the car), as compared to d0 when you were at rest, and

$$d = d_0 / \gamma$$

Therefore:

$$d_0 = \gamma d = (\gamma - 1)d + d$$

So

d0 = (0.000000000000005)(100,000,000) + 100,000,000 light years

d0 = 100,000,000.0000005 light years.

Thus, in 10 seconds, the distance to the galaxy has shrunk by 0.0000005 light years, or around 4.73 times 10^9 metres.

The "speed of shrinkage" is this distance divided by the time taken to shrink, which gives 4.73 times 10^8 metres per second.

But the speed of light is only 3.00 times 10^8 metres per second! So, the rate of distance shrinkage means that the shrinkage happened faster than light.

---

Is this your argument?

And do you think this is a problem for relativity? If so, why?
 
MacM:

Let me see if I can work out what you're doing.

For simplicity, let's assume you accelerate your car from 0 to 108 km/hr in 10 seconds.

108 km/hr is conveniently v=30 m/s.

The gamma factor at that speed is

$$\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-(v/c)^2}}$$

Since v is very small compared to the speed of light, we can approximate this as:

$$\gamma \approx 1 +\frac{1}{2}\left(\frac{v}{c}\right)^2$$

I think this is what you were doing with your formula.

Plugging in the numbers v=30 m/s and c = 300,000,000 m/s, we have

$$\gamma = 1.000000000000005$$

Now consider, say, a galaxy that is 100 million light years away when you're at 30 m/s, as measured in the reference frame of the car.

At a speed of 30 m/s, the distance to the galaxy is d (as measured by you, in the car), as compared to d0 when you were at rest, and

$$d = d_0 / \gamma$$

Therefore:

$$d_0 = \gamma d = (\gamma - 1)d + d$$

So

d0 = (0.000000000000005)(100,000,000) + 100,000,000 light years

d0 = 100,000,000.0000005 light years.

Thus, in 10 seconds, the distance to the galaxy has shrunk by 0.0000005 light years, or around 4.73 times 10^9 metres.

The "speed of shrinkage" is this distance divided by the time taken to shrink, which gives 4.73 times 10^8 metres per second.

But the speed of light is only 3.00 times 10^8 metres per second! So, the rate of distance shrinkage means that the shrinkage happened faster than light.

---

Is this your argument?

And do you think this is a problem for relativity? If so, why?

Well James R, I'm very impressed and pleased. In all the years you and I have locked horns this is the first time you actually took time and made effort to address the actual issue rather than just slam the post.

That being said I would say being a problem for SR is debatable. Many (likely you included) will be willing to ignore the implications because SR is otherwise useful.

I however, do think it points to the falsification of the concept as physical reality. After all the velocity one gets while accelerating is now a function of the distance to the object and the energy you are expending to achieve a velocity is no longer equally proportional - i.e. BTU's/Mph etc.

That is locally I can say I consume "1,000BTU's to go from 0 - 60Mph but those same 1,000BTU's also take me from 0 - 97,699,556.54 Mph to the gallaxy 100 million lyr away.

Velocity now becomes a completely arbitrary value.

SR actually addresses this issue and uses event horizons to mask the FTL motion. My point is that MOST folks here that think they understand SR actually have never thought about some of the arcain consequences of the concept.

One such arcain consequence also being the fact that accelerating AWAY from a remote object you actually accelerate closer. Now vector of motion is lost.

This failure to critically consider the consequences of SR is systemic in modern physics and astronomy. For example how many people have ever considered that what we observe as the accelerating expansion of the universe may well be the consequence of inverse lorentz contraction of a decelerating universe (this is assuming you retain spatial contraction as a reality - I don't).

None of this occurs if you simply acknowledge that a dilated (accelerated and now having a different absolute velocity) clock is physically ticking slower than the resting inertial clock and that it's accumulated time over the course of a trip compared to the time recorded by the resting clock fully accounts for the trip with NO spatial contraction having taken place.

That you create spatial contraction by ignoring the dilated tick rate and claiming the less time is because you traveled less distance at a common velocity. Frankly it is an absurd concept and has never been observed. Declaring a physical affect in one frame and a different physical affect in another. It is not necessary and generates absurdities.

Stick with one physical affect.

If I have accelerated and have established a velocity to another resting clock each meter marker I pass will seem to require less time; hence I will compute I have a higher velocity, not that the meter marker physical distance shrank and I have a common velocity.

Velocity is a computed value based on the relationship of two physical attributes - Time and Distance. Velocity is not a physical quantity. It is incorrect to claim a common computed value when you have already determined that one physical quanity has changed.

That is my arguement in a nut shell. SR makes a wrong turn in it's conclusions and basis.

It is not distance that changes physically, it is velocity that is frame dependant because it is a computed value based on two different sets of physical facts - the change in clock tick rate only. v = d/t.

Use t1 = t2/2 and you can see that v1 = 2v2. Distance did not change.
 
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This shrinkage is nothing more than an optical illusion. Hence: ILLUSION.

If that is your position I would not fight over it. That illusion however is created by using two different time standards (tick rates) and treating them as being the same.

My argument is for those that claim the affects of SR are real physical changes. That is things have different lengths or distances based on observer velocity.

My position is distance is common in every frame and travel time recorded by the observer will result in a different calculated velocity.
 
That being said I would say being a problem for SR is debatable. Many (likely you included) will be willing to ignore the implications because SR is otherwise useful.
If you spin around on the spot fast enough, you'll find yourself in a (rotating) reference frame in which the moon's speed exceeds c (never mind the ludicrous speeds of quasars billions of light years away). The superluminal speed of the cosmic body you're accelerating toward has about the same standing in relativity (Lorentz boosts being hyperbolic rotations in space-time and all that).
 
If you spin around on the spot fast enough, you'll find yourself in a (rotating) reference frame in which the moon's speed exceeds c (never mind the ludicrous speeds of quasars billions of light years away). The superluminal speed of the cosmic body you're accelerating toward has about the same standing in relativity (Lorentz boosts being hyperbolic rotations in space-time and all that).

Not even close to comperable.

Velocity is directly a ratio of delta d/delta t . And the issue presented is directly a change in distance in a period of time. As I have said SR even addresses the issue and merely hides the FTL motion behind an event horizon. They at least don't try to blow it off as non-existant.

For anyone actually interested in the subject here is a link:

http://www.astrophysicsspectator.com/topics/specialrelativity/AccelerationSim.html
 
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MacM:

przyk is actually correct. The length contraction that is observed as you accelerate is a consequence of your change of reference frame. Your changing reference frame changes how your perceive the world around you. So, if you like, you can consider the apparent change a purely personal effect.

In exactly the same way, if you spin on the spot, the moon may suddenly be spinning around you faster than light, but your perception of this, just like your perception of the approaching galaxy when you accelerate, is just a feature of the non-inertial reference frame you happen to be in.

There are, in fact, (at least) two features that make the above analysis a non-problem for relativity. The first one is in the calculation of speed of approach. Notice that above I fudged the calculation. I said the acceleration time was 10 seconds. But 10 seconds in which reference frame? The frame where the car is at zero speed, or where the car is at 30 m/s, or something in between? As you accelerate, time dilation occurs, and we ignored that.

The second, and more important reason that this is a non-issue is that nothing in relativity places a speed-of-light limit on the contraction rate of space. It is a derivable result of special relativity that no object with mass can have a speed exceeding the speed of light in any inertial reference frame. Note the words "inertial reference frame". But once you look at things from a non-inertial frame (such as the accelerating frame of the car), that restriction no longer applies.

In a similar context, people often ask how distant galaxies can be receding from us faster than the speed of light, due to the expansion of the universe. The simple answer is that the speed-of-light limit doesn't apply to the expansion of spacetime.

And why is there any speed of light limit at all on anything? Answer: the speed-of-light limit in inertial frames is a derived result of relativity. If you don't believe in relativity, then there's no reason to believe in the speed-of-light limit, either. It seems strange to me to want to accept one part of a theory while at the same time rejecting the other parts that imply the part you want to accept. It's inconsistent and a sign of muddy thinking.

SR actually addresses this issue and uses event horizons to mask the FTL motion.

First I've heard of this.

One such arcain consequence also being the fact that accelerating AWAY from a remote object you actually accelerate closer. Now vector of motion is lost.

This mixes up a change of reference frame with physical motion of objects in an inertial frame. It's the same false reasoning all over again.
 
MacM:

przyk is actually correct. The length contraction that is observed as you accelerate is a consequence of your change of reference frame. Your changing reference frame changes how your perceive the world around you. So, if you like, you can consider the apparent change a purely personal effect.

Nope. instantaneous velocity during acceleration HAS instantaneous physical distance IF you insist SR is a physical reality. It doesn't just become real once you have established a new higher inertial velocity. That is absurd. But then historically I have seen such efforts to mask the truth by claiming what happens during accleration isn't reality. That is escape goat nonsense. Sorry.

There are, in fact, (at least) two features that make the above analysis a non-problem for relativity. The first one is in the calculation of speed of approach. Notice that above I fudged the calculation. I said the acceleration time was 10 seconds. But 10 seconds in which reference frame? The frame where the car is at zero speed, or where the car is at 30 m/s, or something in between? As you accelerate, time dilation occurs, and we ignored that.

Correct and I anticipated your tatic when I pointed out that the time dilation affect in that frame is totally irrelevant to the issue since the TD is virtually immeasurable. That is why I have gone to sub-sub-luminal velocities to make my point.

Yes it is there and can be considered but once considered you will still have considerable FTL to deal with. You can't just throw obtuse objections around like this. Stay real. If you claim otherwise compute the TD affect and present it.

I suggest that the change in distance is not over 10 seconds but perhaps 9.99999999 seconds. BIG WHOOP. Doesn't get you out of the woods I'm afraid.

The second, and more important reason that this is a non-issue is that nothing in relativity places a speed-of-light limit on the contraction rate of space. It is a derivable result of special relativity that no object with mass can have a speed exceeding the speed of light in any inertial reference frame. Note the words "inertial reference frame". But once you look at things from a non-inertial frame (such as the accelerating frame of the car), that restriction no longer applies.

Great I agree with your presentation. But now admit that the SOL IS NOT A LIMIT. It is only a limit in an inertial frame (according to theory).

In a similar context, people often ask how distant galaxies can be receding from us faster than the speed of light, due to the expansion of the universe. The simple answer is that the speed-of-light limit doesn't apply to the expansion of spacetime.

Correct (according to theory) but that doesn't alter the fact that changing distance over changing time IS Velocity and accepting SR means there is no such thing as velocity achieved by acceleration since during acceleration all velocities are a function of distance to the point of reference.

And why is there any speed of light limit at all on anything? Answer: the speed-of-light limit in inertial frames is a derived result of relativity. If you don't believe in relativity, then there's no reason to believe in the speed-of-light limit, either.

That is fine because I don't believe it is a limit in a universal sense. I believe under constant acceleration that at the relative velocity of v = c there is lorentz contraction of mass (not space) and objects cease to exist to observers at those energy level differentials but will still exist to other observers that are at higher absolute energies (less differential).

It seems strange to me to want to accept one part of a theory while at the same time rejecting the other parts that imply the part you want to accept. It's inconsistent and a sign of muddy thinking.

Muddy thinking is to turn the physical world upside down because of a theory which has totally different physical consequences in different frames.

My thinking is in fact very clear and precludes the mud discussed above. For example in my view where you retain a physical standard change (i.e. - the reduced tick rate of a clock) it accounts for the decreased accumulated time of a trip and distance does not change. The computed velocity will be different because observers are using different time standards to measure distance change. A VERY, VERY consistant physics concept. If something changes physically keep it changed in all frames. It is SR that has muddy thinking I'm afraid.

Time changes in one frame but distance changes in the other - what nonsense. Mathematically viable but physical BS. Relative velocity IS equal universally but it will not be sensed equal by observers with relative velocity because they are using different time tick rate standards when one has undergone greater F = ma in the creation of the relative velocity.. It is that simple. That is the ONLY thing data has shown now for over 100 years.

First I've heard of this.

Can't believe that a physicist didn't know of the event horizon affect during acceleration.

This mixes up a change of reference frame with physical motion of objects in an inertial frame. It's the same false reasoning all over again.

False reasoning is to mix up physical affects between frames.
 
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MacM:

Nope. instantaneous velocity during acceleration HAS instantaneous physical distance IF you insist SR is a physical reality. It doesn't just become real once you have established a new higher inertial velocity. That is absurd. But then historically I have seen such efforts to mask the truth by claiming what happens during accleration isn't reality.

Straw man. Nobody claimed that what happens during acceleration is not real.


That is why I have gone to sub-sub-luminal velocities to make my point.

Yes it is there and can be considered but once considered you will still have considerable FTL to deal with. You can't just throw obtuse objections around like this. Stay real. If you claim otherwise compute the TD affect and present it.

I suggest that the change in distance is not over 10 seconds but perhaps 9.99999999 seconds. BIG WHOOP. Doesn't get you out of the woods I'm afraid.

For once, you're right. I drop that objection. My second objection still stands.

Great I agree with your presentation. But now admit that the SOL IS NOT A LIMIT. It is only a limit in an inertial frame (according to theory).

Right. The speed of light is only a limit in inertial frames. But even that is not what we're talking about here, because we're talking about the rate of contraction of space, not the rate of movement of an object in space. The two things are completely different.

Correct (according to theory) but that doesn't alter the fact that changing distance over changing time IS Velocity and accepting SR means there is no such thing as velocity achieved by acceleration since during acceleration all velocities are a function of distance to the point of reference.

To measure a velocity, you don't measure a distance to a point of reference. You measure the distance covered in a particular time interval.

That is fine because I don't believe it is a limit in a universal sense. I believe under constant acceleration that at the relative velocity of v = c there is lorentz contraction of mass (not space) and objects cease to exist to observers at those energy level differentials but will still exist to other observers that are at higher absolute energies (less differential).

Since there is nothing to support your theory, it is pretty much worthless. It's a nice fantasy, that's all.

Muddy thinking is to turn the physical world upside down because of a theory which has totally different physical consequences in different frames.

What totally different physical consequences? Explain.

For example in my view where you retain a physical standard change (i.e. - the reduced tick rate of a clock) it accounts for the decreased accumulated time of a trip and distance does not change. The computed velocity will be different because observers are using different time standards to measure distance change.

Observers in relative inertial motion always agree on their relative velocity.

Time changes in one frame but distance changes in the other - what nonsense.

Yes. Nonsense - and also not what SR says.

Can't believe that a physicist didn't know of the event horizon affect during acceleration.

Well, now you can believe it. Got any references I can look at?

False reasoning is to mix up physical affects between frames.

I'm glad you've learnt that lesson. It took a while.
 
MacM:

Straw man. Nobody claimed that what happens during acceleration is not real.

Funny Igot the distinct impression that somehow change in distance over change in time were no longer considered real velocity. Hmmmmm. I'd swear that was your position.

Your problem is you try to protect SR by claiming it is no longer an SR problem. That may be mathematically correct by theory but in terms of physics it damn sure is an SR problem because SR is causing it by contracting distance.

For once, you're right. I drop that objection. My second objection still stands.

Actually I've been right many more time than for which you have given credit.

Right. The speed of light is only a limit in inertial frames. But even that is not what we're talking about here, because we're talking about the rate of contraction of space, not the rate of movement of an object in space. The two things are completely different.

Only a technicality. Not in terms of physics in the real world. Change in distance over a change in time IS velocity at all times, inertial OR during acceleration. The fact that you choose to ignore the appication of SR during acceleration is the Strawman because SR can be applied during acceleration, it just isn't normally done because it is more complicated.

To measure a velocity, you don't measure a distance to a point of reference. You measure the distance covered in a particular time interval.

So then you dispute the fact that velocity is a change rate of distance over time? v = delta d/delta t. Interesting.

Since there is nothing to support your theory, it is pretty much worthless. It's a nice fantasy, that's all.

Well considering that it is logical whereas SR is purportedly "Counter Intuitive" and further has NO supporting evidence to choose spatial contraction in one frame vs time dilation in another compared to simply retaining the physical change in all frames - hmmmm. I dare say my view is superior to SR in that regard. Razor seems to be in agreement as well. But you are certainly free to continue to believe motion causes such convoluted consequences.

What totally different physical consequences? Explain.

Retaining physical change between frames and not switching standards between frames.

Observers in relative inertial motion always agree on their relative velocity.

That is only based on your assumptions of equal computed relative velocity. It seems logical at first but it actually isn't. Velocity = d/t and when you have two different t standards - i.e. tick rates of t1 = t2/2 then observers of a traveler moving at a universal absolute equal relative velocity will calculate v1 = d/t1 and v2=d/t2 such that v1 = 2*v2 because the time dilation is a real physical change in the clock as evidenced in differential accumulated time upon direct comparison.

Well, now you can believe it. Got any references I can look at?

Provided.

I'm glad you've learnt that lesson. It took a while.

I'm not the one learning here. I'm teaching. Even though I have some rather hard headed students that choose to get "F" 's.:D
 
MacM:

Funny Igot the distinct impression that somehow change in distance over change in time were no longer considered real velocity. Hmmmmm. I'd swear that was your position.

Distance over time is a real velocity, provided that both the distance and the time are both measured in the same inertial reference frame.

What you are attempting is to measure distance and time over a range of changing non-inertial reference frames.

Your problem is you try to protect SR by claiming it is no longer an SR problem. That may be mathematically correct by theory but in terms of physics it damn sure is an SR problem because SR is causing it by contracting distance.

The bottom line here is what I said before: SR places no restrictions on the speed of contraction of space. There simply is no such speed of light limit. See my previous posts for the explanation, if you missed it the first time.

The fact that you choose to ignore the appication of SR during acceleration is the Strawman because SR can be applied during acceleration, it just isn't normally done because it is more complicated.

I have ignored nothing, and I have not claimed that SR cannot be applied where there is an acceleration, either. Try to comment on what I've actually said, rather than imagining what I've said.

So then you dispute the fact that velocity is a change rate of distance over time? v = delta d/delta t. Interesting.

I do not dispute that. You failed to understand my point, but I can't be bothered explaining it to you. It's not important.

Well considering that it is logical whereas SR is purportedly "Counter Intuitive" and further has NO supporting evidence to choose spatial contraction in one frame vs time dilation in another compared to simply retaining the physical change in all frames - hmmmm.

Nonsense.

There is endless amounts of evidence supporting the application of SR. This doesn't really deserve a reply.

Retaining physical change between frames and not switching standards between frames.

No idea what this might mean.
 
James R,

Macm said:
Retaining physical change between frames and not switching standards between frames.


James R said:
No idea what this might mean.

Yep. The bottom line and therein lies the root problem with modern physics.
 
Please use mathematics of SR to rebut my claim and not rhetoric and unearned air of superiority.

Given your car accelerates from 0 - 60Mph in 6 seconds towards the object (very typical performance and certainly not in the realm of relavistic fantasy), the distance to the remote cosmic object IN ACCORDANCE WITH SPECIAL RELATIVITY is contracting at a rate of 10,502c!!!!!

Why use mathematics?

This stupid claim just violates the first postulate, that says you can never go faster than c. ``Can never'' shouldn't be taken to read ``You can never stupidly plug numbers into a forumla and get a velocity larger than c'', but rather ``Any physical system has a velocity (as measured by a stationary observer) which is limited by the speed of light''.

Einstein understood this when he was 14, supposedly. I understood it when I was 16 (I'm not claiming anything about my intelligence---Einstein had learned this by himself, I had been taught it).

The only conclusion that we can draw from your post is that you don't have as much intelligence as an average 16 year old.
 
Why use mathematics?

This stupid claim just violates the first postulate, that says you can never go faster than c. ``Can never'' shouldn't be taken to read ``You can never stupidly plug numbers into a forumla and get a velocity larger than c'', but rather ``Any physical system has a velocity (as measured by a stationary observer) which is limited by the speed of light''.

Einstein understood this when he was 14, supposedly. I understood it when I was 16 (I'm not claiming anything about my intelligence---Einstein had learned this by himself, I had been taught it).

The only conclusion that we can draw from your post is that you don't have as much intelligence as an average 16 year old.


Well. Well. Another that can only spout venom and not discuss issues. I happen to be 67 and a hell of a lot more educated that you might think.

The difference is in fact that I do think and don't just go around quoting others and let them do my thinking for me.

Some that are educated but are really just tape recorders repeating what they have been told or read and have no underlying understanding of physics. So frankly you have just shot your wad for what it is worth which is nothing.

Congratulations.
 
If you spin around on the spot fast enough, you'll find yourself in a (rotating) reference frame in which the moon's speed exceeds c (never mind the ludicrous speeds of quasars billions of light years away). The superluminal speed of the cosmic body you're accelerating toward has about the same standing in relativity (Lorentz boosts being hyperbolic rotations in space-time and all that).
Excellent analogy.

I vote for a thread lock - there's nothing left to discuss.
 
Excellent analogy.

I vote for a thread lock - there's nothing left to discuss.

Really a shame you don't understand the differance in spinning around and direct change in distance with change in time.

FYI: I have had public formal debate on these issues with a respected and published particle physicist and he at least acknowledged that there is no reason to not believe that velocity is frame dependant and distance constant physically but that he personally finds working with SR easier. But easy isn't the key to truth now is it.

For those unwilling to even think seriously about the respective concepts - what can I say other than- SAD and less informed view point.
 
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