Belief or disbelief: What are your reasons?

[S.A.M.]

You're making a joke because you don't know, and you're presuming that what I'm implying is not true.

Look into it.

I've heard all the BS, which is mostly from westerners who are generally clueless about living conditions in India.

As far as I am concerned, people who were previously dying in garbage dumps, gutters and on the streets were able to die in some semblance of dignity.

 

[S.A.M.]

Thats her M.O.

I find it tedious to clarify anything to the clueless.

Missionaries of Charity is a Roman Catholic religious order established in 1950 by Mother Teresa of Calcutta, which consists of over 4,500 nuns and is active in 133 countries.

Missionaries care for those who include refugees, ex-prostitutes, the mentally ill, sick children, abandoned children, lepers, AIDS victims, the aged, and convalescent. They have schools run by volunteers to educate street children, they run soup kitchens, as well as many other services as per the communities' needs. They have 19 homes in Kolkata (Calcutta) alone which include homes for women, for orphaned children, and for the dying; an AIDS hospital, a school for street children, and a leper colony. These services are provided to people regardless of their religion or social caste.

And a polemic atheist sitting on his fat arse, drunk most of the time, will illuminate us on his superior morality.

 

[shichimenshyo]

I find it tedious to clarify anything .

I know

 

[Lori_7]

You said you had a vision that Jesus was the Messiah. That invalidates every vision that anyone has ever had which supports a different religion, almost all of which contradict Christianity.

i didn't say i had a vision that jesus was the messiah. i have had 2 visions. i said that i've had experiences that have led me to believe that. i also do not agree with you that other religions contradict christianity. i have found that most other religions, if not all of the world's major ones, seem to present and perpetuate the same principles and behaviors as christianity does. christians may differ in their belief that jesus is a messiah, but that does not contradict any other religions, it supplements, and in my opinion, finalizes them. hindus, for example, believe that all religions are true, so they believe that jesus is a messiah too. i think there are a lot of different ways to show the same truth.

 

[redwards]

I've heard all the BS, which is mostly from westerners who are generally clueless about living conditions in India.

As far as I am concerned, people who were previously dying in garbage dumps, gutters and on the streets were able to die in some semblance of dignity.

And the fact that Mother Teresa's charity had a ridiculous fortune with which to provide care for these people, and yet did not provide care, that's water under the bridge, I suppose. :shrug:

 

[S.A.M.]

And the fact that Mother Teresa's charity had a ridiculous fortune with which to provide care for these people, and yet did not provide care, that's water under the bridge, I suppose. :shrug:

I suppose you work in hospices all the time. You've cleaned the sores of lepers, cleaned up shit after bed ridden patients, given body baths to AIDS patients, sat with relatives, given food and water to patients blinded by tumors with no control over swallowing or shitting.

I mean clearly you know what the fuck you are talking about.

 

[KennyJC]

Your statement intrigues me. I ask this out of pure curiosity - and believe me when I say that I'm not trying to convert you because I don't think that's mine, or anyone else's role - but is the fact that you are letting your intellect override your emotions a possible reason why you can't connect with God?

This is just the classic assumption that theists are getting something extra that atheists are not. Dawkins even mentioned this very thing in the first page of the God Delusion. He had what he describes as a lucid moment which could be interpreted as a "religious experience", and that his childhood pastor had the exact same thing as a child. So it moved Dawkins towards science, and the pastor towards religion.

Conclusion: the same emotions are shared between atheists and theists, however, they interpret them differently. For theists, anything they want to be true, they believe to be true.

As a Christian, I couldn't agree more. And of course, it's a two way street, and unfortunately there are those here at sciforums who fall into this category.

The only way that we'll all be able to get along is to get sympathetically into one another's shoes. If you don't believe in God, you need to try to understand why anybody does, or we're not going to be able to work in a pluralistic society.

I totally understand why people believe in god. I understand why people believe in ghosts, believe that 9/11 was an inside job. I know it's all bullshit, but I understand the beliefs and the motivations.

When the new atheist books (Dawkins, Hitchens, and company) say that religion is bad, that's not a new thesis. What's new about those books is that they say respect for religion is bad.

Of course respect for religion is bad. Some people find it hard to believe that there are people out there that care about the truth. If people care about the truth, why would they respect what smells of bullshit?

If you counsel one section of your population to belittle and disdain the beliefs of another group of people - who's beliefs give them great joy and meaning if life - and do nothing to understand the other group - that's a recipe for social disaster. I've actually ignored replies on these boards just for that reason alone.

I already said I understand why people believe in god. First and foremost I am human, and know what leads people to such beliefs.

Outside of dictatorships, there's no proof that disdain of religion is bad for society. In actual fact, it seems atheists who are constantly getting the shitty deal. Would you rather be the only atheist in the village or the only theist in the village? Less religious countries are more tolerant of beliefs, and more religious countries are intolerant of pretty much everything.

Oh, and giving them "great joy and meaning in life" seems like a misnomer when you actually look at the most religious regions of the world.

 

[(Q)]

I suppose you work in hospices all the time. You've cleaned the sores of lepers, cleaned up shit after bed ridden patients, given body baths to AIDS patients, sat with relatives, given food and water to patients blinded by tumors with no control over swallowing or shitting.

And you have?

 

[S.A.M.]

And you have?

Yeah. I've also worked in hospitals and sat with a dying friend and her dying mother.

Its not pretty work.

Its hard to express the humiliation that people feel when they are too helpless to even control their bowel movements or when they have to ask a stranger to clean them up.

But bad as that is, its worse (for me at least) is the indignity when they have no idea that they are lying covered in their own shit.

Thats one thing that Mother Teresa has relieved for many people and I'll take on anyone who speaks against her.

 

[redwards]

i didn't say i had a vision that jesus was the messiah. i have had 2 visions. i said that i've had experiences that have led me to believe that.

"I have had some tripped out spiritual experiences happen to me that have proven to me the existence of a spiritual realm and a god and that jesus christ is indeed the messiah."

Fine, your "tripped out spiritual experiences" (not visions!) invalidate the "tripped out spiritual experiences" of others, the world 'round, whose experiences convinced them of the certainty of other religions. Either they're lying or mistaken, or you're lying or mistaken. Everybody can't be right.

i also do not agree with you that other religions contradict christianity. i have found that most other religions, if not all of the world's major ones, seem to present and perpetuate the same principles and behaviors as christianity does.

:shrug: Those principles transcend religion. But the behaviors a religion perpetuates are beside the point. If Jesus is the Messiah, then Mohammed is not, and the messiah the Jews are still waiting for is never coming, and certainly, the pantheon of Hindu gods do not exist.

christians may differ in their belief that jesus is a messiah, but that does not contradict any other religions, it supplements, and in my opinion, finalizes them. hindus, for example, believe that all religions are true, so they believe that jesus is a messiah too. i think there are a lot of different ways to show the same truth.

No they don't. Where on earth did you get that? And, as I previously explained, certainly Jews and Muslims would disagree. It also obviously invalidates Buddhism, since reincarnation and the afterlife can't coexist, so all those Buddhist monks are hosed.

 

[redwards]

I suppose you work in hospices all the time. You've cleaned the sores of lepers, cleaned up shit after bed ridden patients, given body baths to AIDS patients, sat with relatives, given food and water to patients blinded by tumors with no control over swallowing or shitting.

I mean clearly you know what the fuck you are talking about.

None of which is the point.

Mother Teresa's goal was never, ever, to keep people from suffering. On the contrary, her goal was to facilitate their suffering, because she thought suffering pleased God.

I'm not claiming she's evil, but I certainly don't hold her in particularly high regard.

 

[S.A.M.]

None of which is the point.

Mother Teresa's goal was never, ever, to keep people from suffering. On the contrary, her goal was to facilitate their suffering, because she thought suffering pleased God.

I'm not claiming she's evil, but I certainly don't hold her in particularly high regard.

When you start taking in terminally ill strangers and wiping their arses, I'll concede you're doing more than talking out of yours.

 

[redwards]

When you start taking in terminally ill strangers and wiping their arses, I'll concede you're doing more than talking out of yours.

So the nuns were treated like shit, too. That makes this better somehow? Directing an organization to clean up people shit helps neither those people nor your volunteers.

 

[S.A.M.]

So the nuns were treated like shit, too. That makes this better somehow? Directing an organization to clean up people shit helps neither those people nor your volunteers.

The nuns volunteer as do the patients family members and students and anyone else who wants to volunteer.

e.g. in our college, students do community service by volunteering to teach the children of prostitutes and these nuns make the place and children available to us.

 

[spidergoat]

Hitchens:

Mommie Dearest
The pope beatifies Mother Teresa, a fanatic, a fundamentalist, and a fraud.


Dawkins:




I pity the poor woman.

You have proven nothing and once again missed the point entirely. Hitchens has very specific complaints against Teresa that have nothing to do with disrespecting religious people.

 

[redwards]

The nuns volunteer as do the patients family members and students and anyone else who wants to volunteer.

e.g. in our college, students do community service by volunteering to teach the children of prostitutes and these nuns make the place and children available to us.

What's your point? The nuns were full time volunteers for the charity, and they were treated like crap. I've read variously that medical and dental care were considered unnecessary luxuries. The organization takes in hundreds of millions of dollars, and won't even care for the people who work for it for free.

 

[S.A.M.]

What's your point? The nuns were full time volunteers for the charity, and they were treated like crap. I've read variously that medical and dental care were considered unnecessary luxuries. The organization takes in hundreds of millions of dollars, and won't even care for the people who work for it for free.

Thats not true. First of all, there is a dearth of volunteers. Second, there are legal issues with taking responsibility for medical attention. Anyone can be moved to a hospital if they are willing to take the responsibility, but the nuns are only trained to a very limited extent.

Sure there was criticism about her stand on abortion and euthansia, but she did not force anyone. The mothers were free to use the cradle she kept outside her house or pay a visit to an abortionist.

Family members were free to keep the patients at home or take them to a hospice.

What she offered was a choice. And hundreds of people still take the option she offers.

Frankly I don't know about the million of dollars, what I appreciate is the service she created and which lives on after her.

 

[redwards]

Thats not true. First of all, there is a dearth of volunteers.

Well that should be no surprise.

Second, there are legal issues with taking responsibility for medical attention. Anyone can be moved to a hospital if they are willing to take the responsibility, but the nuns are only trained to a very limited extent.

I'm talking about the nuns themselves. No medical care. Except for Mother Teresa, of course.

 

[spidergoat]

She [MT] spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction.

Christopher Hitchens​

 

[S.A.M.]

Well that should be no surprise.

I'm talking about the nuns themselves. No medical care. Except for Mother Teresa, of course.

You're probably looking from a westen perspective, I'd say about 90% of people in India have very mediocre access to healthcare, compared to the western countries. We have aboout 10,000 hospitals in a country of one billion.