Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

Signal said:
Do you have any evidence that everyone who believes in God, believes in God due to the morality of hell?
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This is how a true Christian show his faith.

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mark 16:17-18.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

There is a small mountain of 16,000 people that will starve today and tomorrow and so on if you do not step up and show your faith.
Unfortunately, there are no true believers. Just hypocrites.

You might note that there is no one here with faith.
If there was, we would all know it.

Just so you know where your bible was born.

Dailymotion - 2007-Doc Zone - Pagan Christ 1 of 3 - une vidéo Actu et Politique

Regards
DL
 
NMSquirrel said:
I believe there is a waiting room..so to speak...we will have an opportunity for us to repent..and those who have not acknowledged god, will not do so then..


ever read dante's inferno?


this is what humans think..
and the prison system says otherwise..


this assumes an 'out' from hell...


killing is too merciful for some..


careful what you ask for..;)


didn't watch..
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Let me know if you ever want to reason.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
There is a small mountain of 16,000 people that will starve today and tomorrow and so on if you do not step up and show your faith.
Unfortunately, there are no true believers. Just hypocrites.

You might note that there is no one here with faith.
If there was, we would all know it.

Just so you know where your bible was born.
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You are barking up the wrong tree. I am not a Christian.
 
Lori_7 said:
morals are irrelevant. what is relevant is the law we all live under. take a look around "greatest i am". hell isn't that far of a stretch.

IT'S REALLY HAPPENING.

i'm picturing greatest i am sitting in hell, arms crossed and nose up in the air saying, "i can't believe this is happening. it's so wrong!"

lol
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Goes to show how wrong assumptions can be.

Here is a sample of my thinking. Try to keep up.

Candide

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA

Regards
DL
 
cosmictraveler said:
Believing in a invisible being that controls everything, including you, is only a sign of mental health problems that should be addressed.
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There is medical support for this.

I have links available but many silly theists will not believe doctors.
Their delusions run too deep.
There is hope for some though.
Thank God, so to speak, that I am successful in converting the few with reasoning power.

Regards
DL
 
Yazata said:
For me at least, belief in God is primarily an ontological, epistemological and semantic issue. Does God exist? (The ontological part.) How can we know? (The epistemological part.) And what does the word 'God' mean in the first place? Put another way, if we are seeking God, then what kind of thing should we be looking for?

That's where the moral point seems to be most relevant. It's a question of whether the Judeo-Christian (and Islamic) traditions offer up an image of transcendence that's a suitable and worthy object of the human religious quest.

If the Bible depicts this God as ordering genocide, demanding that enemies be exterminated man, woman and child (even their animals), if God is portrayed as commanding that fathers kill daughters who have premarital sex and that blasphemers be stoned to death, I don't think that I would want to halt my search for God at that point. When eager evangelists periodically assure me that their "God of Love" will torture me unspeakably for ever and ever and ever, unless I grovel appropriately while muttering the proper formulas, then I feel that the most direct path to God probably lies in a totally different direction.

Christian fundies always tell me that God is our 'Creator', that we are his property to do with as he pleases, and that our moral judgements simply don't apply to him. But I can't just shrug off God's acting in ways that we would never for a moment accept from another human being. (We correctly revile Adolph Hitler for doing milder things.) If I am seeking God, then I'm seeking something that's better than I am, not worse. I simply can't bring myself to worship a God that I perceive as being mankind's moral inferior.

So bottom line, I don't believe in God for ontological, epistemological and semantic reasons. But if I did believe in God, I probably wouldn't find my path to the divine through the Judeo-Christian-Islamic family of myth-traditions. The image of divinity that they offer up seems to me to be morally flawed and psychologically crude.

The fatal defect with all three traditions might be that they are what Muslims call 'Religions of the Book', which effectively locks them into ancient and culturally primitive conceptions of religiosity. These religions have trouble advancing spiritually and growing more sophisticated with time because they are locked into what they are convinced is inerrant and true-for-all-time divine revelation.
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Well said I must say.
We share the same thoughts.
If I had your eloquence, I would convert more than my tough love methods do.
I am a WIP wishing I had you tongue.

Fight on friend. You are sorrowfully needed. Wish I had you in the computer beside me.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
There is medical support for this.

I have links available but many silly theists will not believe doctors.
Their delusions run too deep.
There is hope for some though.
Thank God, so to speak, that I am successful in converting the few with reasoning power.
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Absolutely. Everyone should finally acknowledge that eating, sleeping, sex and fighting are all what existence has to offer.

For the humans co-ordination is important, but for the zombies it’s absolutely vital. Slower than the living (and with only a couple of seconds of “lunge” ability), the zombies must use teamspeak servers to flank their opponents. It feels odd to charge a machine-gunning foe with nothing but your rotting fingers - but the fact that you’ll come back from the dead is good. Watching your teammates creeping up behind your killer with your meaningless life as a distraction is better. And the fact that your newly-zombified former enemy will then help you kill his former teammates is absolutely priceless.
 
Greatest I am said:
I agree. Do you have any to share?

Regards
DL
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I'm an atheist, what do you think?

My point is that believing in a consciousness that is external to the universe and decided to create the universe should not be influenced by one's opinion on if hell is a good idea or not.

The two concepts are entirely unrelated.

EDIT: I would even go so far as to say that anyone (believer or atheist) who brings any religious text into any discussion on the existence of the above mentioned consciousness has already confused the issue and should probably be ignored.
 
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Greatest I am said:
Goes to show how wrong assumptions can be.

Here is a sample of my thinking. Try to keep up.

Candide

"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPClzIsYxvA

Regards
DL
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i'm struggling; you're so deep. really.

here's a sample of my thinking...

you create your own destiny according to law.
 
gmilam said:
I would disagree.

That's like saying, "The invasion of Iraq was immoral, therefore I don't believe in George Bush." That's obviously faulty logic.
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George Bush is not postulated to be a perfect being, who Greatest I am is postulating should therefore have perfect morals. It is perfectly good logic:

Premise A: God is a perfect being with perfect morals, and he sends some people to hell.
Premise B: Sending (some :)) people to a place like biblical hell is immoral
Conclusion: We have a contradiction: therefore either premise A or premise B is wrong.

There are various parts of each premise you can disagree with but the logic is just fine. Greatest I am is suggesting the best way to resolve the contradiction is to just say God and hell don't exist in the first place.
 
kurros said:
George Bush is not postulated to be a perfect being, who Greatest I am is postulating should therefore have perfect morals. It is perfectly good logic:

Premise A: God is a perfect being with perfect morals, and he sends some people to hell.
Premise B: Sending (some :)) people to a place like biblical hell is immoral
Conclusion: We have a contradiction: therefore either premise A or premise B is wrong.

There are various parts of each premise you can disagree with but the logic is just fine. Greatest I am is suggesting the best way to resolve the contradiction is to just say God and hell don't exist in the first place.
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that is not fine. god doesn't have morals. god IS LAW. and god doesn't send some people to hell. some people make damn sure they do what it takes every day to end up there. and if you don't believe me, then open up your eyes and take a good look at the world we all live in, and humanity's state of existence.

it doesn't take a whole lot of extrapolation to end up in hell from where we are.
 
Lori_7 said:
that is not fine. god doesn't have morals. god IS LAW. and god doesn't send some people to hell. some people make damn sure they do what it takes every day to end up there. and if you don't believe me, then open up your eyes and take a good look at the world we all live in, and humanity's state of existence.

it doesn't take a whole lot of extrapolation to end up in hell from where we are.
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Given that God wills the very best for us, and given that we ourselves want the very best for ourselves, then it would seem that no one could make a FULLY INFORMED decision against God. And if not FULLY INFORMED, then the free will defense of hell falls down.

For me, this would apply to the above, given that to reject that which is (by the definition of Christians) the very best for us would imply that one is not fully informed.

This argument is developed in many ways in Thomas Talbott's book "The Inescapable Love of God", where he shows how a doctrine of Universalism (all are eventually saved) is compatible with the Biblical teaching as found in the NT, especially the writings of St Paul.

Regards
DL
 
kurros said:
It is perfectly good logic:

Premise A: God is a perfect being with perfect morals, and he sends some people to hell.
Premise B: Sending (some :)) people to a place like biblical hell is immoral
Conclusion: We have a contradiction: therefore either premise A or premise B is wrong.

There are various parts of each premise you can disagree with but the logic is just fine.
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The original assertion was "Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell".

Your argument is that it's contradictory to simultaneously believe that God is perfectly good, God does X, and that X is immoral.

There's an obvious problem with a perfectly good being doing bad things.

But how do we get from the logical incompatibility of your premises to a proof of the original assertion?

Greatest I am is suggesting the best way to resolve the contradiction is to just say God and hell don't exist in the first place.
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I would say that myself, although for different reasons.

But a believer in divinities could make different moves.

He or she could say that God(s) needn't be perfectly good. Polytheistic religions often depict Gods operating at cross purposes. (Even Christianity does that if you accept Satan as a dualistic anti-God, as many Christians seem to do.)

He or she could say that God doesn't condemn anyone to hell.

Or he or she could say that allowing people to go to hell isn't an immoral thing at all. One way to argue that might be to imagine hell as ancient Buddhist tradition depicts it, a temporary state of desire-gratification where everyone is getting precisely what they most desired in life. The problem being that those desires were disfunctional. When hell-beings finally realize that and reform their desires, they rise out of hell. The Buddhists attributed all that to the workings of karma and not to the will of any divinities, but it's certainly possible to put a theistic spin on that kind of psychologistic interpretation.

Some Christians do that. There's a big theological argument currently going on inside Christianity between a fundamentalist 'eternal-damnation' faction and a more theologically liberal 'universal reconciliation' faction that argues that God will eventually gather all lost souls back to him.
 
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