tiassa, you jump ahead too much. I'm only establishing the desire for standards here. And let me take it back to that. People become outraged at right and wrong being handled differently in other cultures, or other governments allowing their citizens to get away with whatever on their own citizens. We have things like war-crimes and world courts for dictators that go out of control. So this would point to a desire for <i>universal</i> standards for right and wrong. If you have to convert from liters to gallons or drive on the other side of the road, these are just inconveniences, but right and wrong is a different issue because people demand justice.
Belief and Conscience
- Thread starter Seskii
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tiassa, you jump ahead too much. I'm only establishing the desire for standards here. And let me take it back to that. People become outraged at right and wrong being handled differently in other cultures, or other governments allowing their citizens to get away with whatever on their own citizens. We have things like war-crimes and world courts for dictators that go out of control. So this would point to a desire for <i>universal</i> standards for right and wrong. If you have to convert from liters to gallons or drive on the other side of the road, these are just inconveniences, but right and wrong is a different issue because people demand justice.
The process is the same
After all, people are merely agreeing on and fixing abstractions as standards. It is only the sense of necessary homogony that Christianity demands that compels one to think its process of convention is unique.
There are religions that look at one another as merely the difference between driving on which side of the road. It seems that such a strange elevation of convention is unique to the religions of Abraham.
thanx,
Tiassa
After all, people are merely agreeing on and fixing abstractions as standards. It is only the sense of necessary homogony that Christianity demands that compels one to think its process of convention is unique.
There are religions that look at one another as merely the difference between driving on which side of the road. It seems that such a strange elevation of convention is unique to the religions of Abraham.
Justice is as subjective as anything else. I might cite the soccer-mom who wrote a letter to the editor of the Seattle Times upon the occasion of an eleven-hour standoff between one mentally-ill man and many, many police. It took a while for the fire hoses to work. The soccer mom noted that the traffic tie-up made her late to pick her son up from practice, and advised that the next time the police just shoot the bastard. Our police department has responded in kind. In fear of his life, from thirty to forty feet away, an officer gunned down a mentally ill man after a mere shoplifting incident because he had a kitchen knife and the man twitched while walking down the sidewalk. (There were a dozen cops around him at the same range ....) And our public process? Apparently, stopping cars on the street for no documentable reason and assaulting the women inside with pepper spray is acceptable because the officer is scared of the, uh, "suspects". (Suspected of what crime?) Or beating an EMT for treating a wounded person on the sidewalk. Our sheriff is not allowed to fire this officer, by law of the arbitrator: he had ample reason to be afraid of the EMT. Justice, indeed.
thanx,
Tiassa
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tiassa
Do you realize everything you said bolsters my argument? You argue yourself that these incidences are unjust, and are therefore calling on a common sense of justice that is higher than these particular human definitions in your argument.
Something to think about
Do you realize everything you said bolsters my argument? You argue yourself that these incidences are unjust, and are therefore calling on a common sense of justice that is higher than these particular human definitions in your argument.
Something to think about
Well god is supposed to be the one that damned you in the first place so why is it so awsome that he can forgive you too. Especially since you basically have to give up your free will to be forgiven.
And I'm sorry, man, but this next is just more mumbo jumbo to me.
Free will which he gave us, but doesn't want us to use.
Well I've got news for god. It didn't work. people are still dropping like flys. Of course we seem to be breeding like them too.
Again I say..... people are still dying. Did god FORGET to lift the penalty?
I would say that the acceptance thing puts a hole in my above argument, but I don't see the christians living happily ever after either.
So it's ME that has to have faith, but that faith is not of myself? How is it a gift if payment is demanded?
It is interesting how you keep claiming that God did not want us to use free will when God wants us to use it in the way that He states.
Your argument is similar to, if someone gives you a blender for your birthday, and says you shouldn't use it to process live cats, you say they don't want to use it at all.
No, it's more like:
Someone gives you a blender and a list of drinks that you're allowed to make with it. If you make any drinks that aren't on the list, they're not your friend anymore. If someone did that, I'd say they were never my friend in the first place.
"you're free to choose as long as you choose MY way." I still don't see how that's a choice. "I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count." It's a bunch of double talk. If he only wants us to use our will to conform to his, and is bent on punishing us if we DON'T conform to his will, then he doesn't really want us to exercise FREE will. He wants us to exercise HIS will.
The processing of live cats was a nice try, though.
Where does all this punishment stuff come from? The results of your actions are your own fault. If you slam your thumb in a door, it is going to hurt. The fact that your thumb hurts is not some kind of punishment sent down on you--it's because you slammed your thumb in a door.
Similarly, if you deny God throughout your life here, you are separated from Him in the afterlife. Why would you want to be around the God you were against your whole life.
Now if it hurts being separate from God, that's your problem--not His.
Sorry for butting in
Dan:
If denying God is the individuals problem and not God's why does God want to kill those that have that problem. Seems to me if he didn't have a problem with it he'd just let us be....instead the bible clearly demonstrates that the consequence of denying him will be a cruel death to you, your children, your partner, your animals.....(kind of like a scene from the godfather..."I want him DEAD, I want his family DEAD....etc etc).
Anyway, just thought I'd point that out.
Dan:
If denying God is the individuals problem and not God's why does God want to kill those that have that problem. Seems to me if he didn't have a problem with it he'd just let us be....instead the bible clearly demonstrates that the consequence of denying him will be a cruel death to you, your children, your partner, your animals.....(kind of like a scene from the godfather..."I want him DEAD, I want his family DEAD....etc etc).
Anyway, just thought I'd point that out.
Rambler, a couple of notes
thanx much,
Tiassa
It's an act of love. Please, though, don't ask me to explain it. It's how Christians explain it to me.
I'd say God does care: God wills you to condemnation; there is, after all, a period of Judgement in which God must will, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.
thanx much,
Tiassa
Dan:
I have a problem with that...is it also a result of MY own actions that I am considered a sinner from the day I am born??
God must reconcile this situation ...it was through his design/action that Humanity fell from perfection...why the hell should I feel like I have debt to a god that avoids responsibilty???
Do you consider yourself a sinner from birth??? do you believe that the hand dealt to the thousands of children dieing and suffering is a loving gesture from God??
Tiassa,
Christain love (LOL)....it seems christain's have their own interpretation of what love is. I'm pretty sure if I loved my wife and children the way the christain god loves his "children" I'd be in jail or a mental hospital being treated for some serious psychosis....
I have a problem with that...is it also a result of MY own actions that I am considered a sinner from the day I am born??
God must reconcile this situation ...it was through his design/action that Humanity fell from perfection...why the hell should I feel like I have debt to a god that avoids responsibilty???
Do you consider yourself a sinner from birth??? do you believe that the hand dealt to the thousands of children dieing and suffering is a loving gesture from God??
Tiassa,
Christain love (LOL)....it seems christain's have their own interpretation of what love is. I'm pretty sure if I loved my wife and children the way the christain god loves his "children" I'd be in jail or a mental hospital being treated for some serious psychosis....
Dan, If I'm angry with someone and don't want them to come to my house. I don't have to take any action deal out the punishment of not letting them in.
If I see someone burning in a car and I could save them, but I think they should suffer and die, I can punish them through inaction. If I have the power to save and don't, I'm just as guilty as if I flipped their car over and set in on fire.
All this says to me is that god doesn't have the huevos to claim responsibility for the punishment by saying, "I didn't DO anything".
You have no idea.
Your rejection of God is callous and cruel. It is as if your new wife has sex with a dozen other men and not you at your honeymoon and then expects you to take her in and provide for her and the children she has.
The fact that God doesn't cast all of humanity into hell is a bigger act of love than we could possibly imagine--that He would suffer and die for such people is unfathomable.
There are several verses in the Bible that point towards God not holding people accountable until a certain age. God doesn't judge people's actions--he judges peoples' hearts.
According to doctrine I'm damned from birth, before I get a chance to learn, believe or accept anything. That's callous and cruel. At least I'm basing my "rejection" on information I receive.
"such people" confuses me a little here. What kind of people? People that were born? Evidently that's all it takes to make me dirty.
I'm capable of giving people the benefit of the doubt. I don't automatically assume someone is "bad" just because they happen to have been born.
Did you even read my post? God doesn't damn people from birth. Jesus brought children in as an example of what people had to be like to get into heaven. God did not condemn children when He had Israel wander in the desert when Israel disobeyed Him. Maybe you should take a deep breath, and read the <i>whole</i> post next time.
Of course I read your WHOLE post dan. I just didn't quote your extreme example. And you're the only christian I've ever heard claim that we're not unworthy from the day we're born.
And if he's judging people's hearts, then what does it matter if I've ever even HEARD of jesus? If he's not judging actions then why do I have to accept jesus christ as my saviour and ask forgiveness for my sins to live in eternal happiness?
So if I somehow manage to live a perfect life from birth, I've got nothing to worry about? THEN I don't need to accept christ because I don't need to be saved?
Nobody's perfect.
Unworthy? What does worthiness have to do with anything? God is merciful to the helpless--Jesus exemplified this in His life.
Actions show what is in your heart--much of the time. You can smile while wanting to kill someone, and never do anything about it and you are still sinning. In the same way, you can accept Jesus and never show it to the world and you are still saved (you will still be judged, though--you just make it into heaven).
It was a hypothetical question, dan. Is it not possible to answer hypothetically? And who are you to judge that anyway?
Alright, dan. Adam and eve committed original sin. The punishment is separation from god. To get back to god, we have to accept jesus as our saviour and ask for forgiveness. So my interpretation is that separation from god is what being "damned" is. Are we not all guilty of original sin? Are we not born separate from god?
Unworthy to be with god to answer your question.
And how exactly is god merciful to the helpless? Maybe Jesus exemplified it, but that was a couple thousand years ago. I don't see how that qualifies as IS merciful to the helpless.
First I'm not wholly convinced that conscious thought is not action on some base level. But if it truly is not:
This buisiness of being guilty of sin by just THINKING about a sin is just another example of god not wanting us to use our free will. "not only will I not tolerate you DOING something I didn't say you could do, I will not tolerate you THINKING it." Yeah, that's endless patience and love right there. Boot camp drill instructors are more easy going. And they at least have the decency to TELL you what they want or don't want.
And I know it's supposed to be all about faith and I shouldn't expect to much from the poor omnipotent being, but, says who? PEOPLE!! That's who. God's never given ME a recognizable hint. Anyone can write a book and SAY it's the word of god. For what reason should I believe them over what seems right in MY heart?
What makes some thosands-of-years-dead person more qualified to say how to live my life than I am? And that's even IF we could depend on the accuracy of translations upon translations.