Belief and Conscience
- Thread starter Seskii
- Start date
yeah, yeah, tony. That doesn't answer my question. Besides, "been there done that". A situation requiring a quick decision, still comes down to making the right one. Sure, sometimes the best decision is impossible to miss and there's little thought required, but sometimes there're more than one option, in which case, you still have to assess your options. But, even so, life does not require end-to-end split second decisions. So not only are you avoiding the question, but your argument is weak. Although, I suppose that's to be expected since you've as much as admitted that you refuse think things through.
This says to me again: "I, tony1, refuse to think things through. -- amen."
Someone has played a number on you, tony.
You wouldn't, tony. Understanding and communicating with others is beneath you, evidently. Your god is the god of stagnation, and you are his loyal servant.
Well, I can't say I'm surprised it sounds that way to you, tony. Your not even capable of criticizing what people actually post. You twist all their words around constantly and then criticize your edited statements.
I could tell you that 2 plus 2 is 4 and you'd come back with: "2 minus 2 is 0, your stupid if you think it's 4".
" To say society arbitrarily defines good and evil skirts the issue that society is a bunch of people in the first place. If one person cannot define good and evil for himself, then why could a larger collective of people decide on good and evil?
The point is, people want an objective standard for good and evil, society might give them one solution to this desire, but to even want to have someone or something else define good and evil is odd in itself. "
If there was an objective form of good and evil the definition would not change every single year. It is society. Why can a bunch of people define good and evil even tough 1 cant? Because there is no reason for 1 to define it. Society crates the need and then meets it.
" You ask this question on a message board? "
LOL. Had to laugh at that one.
" I could tell you that 2 plus 2 is 4 and you'd come back with: "2 minus 2 is 0, your stupid if you think it's 4"."
LOL again. That was even better. Truth can be the funniest thing sometimes.
The point is, people want an objective standard for good and evil, society might give them one solution to this desire, but to even want to have someone or something else define good and evil is odd in itself. "
If there was an objective form of good and evil the definition would not change every single year. It is society. Why can a bunch of people define good and evil even tough 1 cant? Because there is no reason for 1 to define it. Society crates the need and then meets it.
" You ask this question on a message board? "
LOL. Had to laugh at that one.
" I could tell you that 2 plus 2 is 4 and you'd come back with: "2 minus 2 is 0, your stupid if you think it's 4"."
LOL again. That was even better. Truth can be the funniest thing sometimes.
Objective is not the same as constant. It is just some agreed-upon standard. The question is in the standard. I could assume that you don't want merely an objective standard for good and evil, but one that is unchanging as well. I think that this is common in humanity. We want objective, unchanging standards so that bad people can be judged and justice can be done.
This isn't going to happen on Earth--and if you don't believe in an afterlife, you are then forced into believing that everything is capricious. We're just one big cosmic joke which no one exists to laugh at--and it's pretty poor humor at that.
People who believe in the Christian God, however, have an out from this predicament. Add an afterlife, a judge who you can't hide anything from, a perfect law so no one can get out with a loophole, and make the judge powerful enough so no one with even all of humanity's power could escape from punishment--and justice is done. Take out any of the ingredients, and you have injustice.
Dan
That was nearly a great argument for the religion...however your chosen religion is not about a direct definition of good and evil...it is first and foremost a mechanism to stroke your gods ego...and defining your worth (or how good or bad you are) by how much arse kissing is done...well....I'm yet to meet anyone who would happily do that....hence christanity must FORCE its believers into the faith by pushing incomprehendable ideas of fear into them. I.e. KISS ARSE or burn for eternity!!!
BTW (and this is open to all christains).....
How exactly did jesus save humanity???? please explain that to me...I've had a christain education, I've been to church, I've had long discussions with priests etc...and NO ONE has explained how this was achieved. Was it because he gave his earthly life???
That was nearly a great argument for the religion...however your chosen religion is not about a direct definition of good and evil...it is first and foremost a mechanism to stroke your gods ego...and defining your worth (or how good or bad you are) by how much arse kissing is done...well....I'm yet to meet anyone who would happily do that....hence christanity must FORCE its believers into the faith by pushing incomprehendable ideas of fear into them. I.e. KISS ARSE or burn for eternity!!!
BTW (and this is open to all christains).....
How exactly did jesus save humanity???? please explain that to me...I've had a christain education, I've been to church, I've had long discussions with priests etc...and NO ONE has explained how this was achieved. Was it because he gave his earthly life???
Is it evil to kill a man to save your children?
From war-torn third-world backwaters, we heard many a story through the 1980s about nuns and priests killing soldiers in order to save churches-full of women and children made refugees by tyranny.
Were these killings evil?
If good and evil are fixed and constant, then yes, these killings are evil.
Good and evil are luxuries. One does what one has to for the greater good, and Thou shall not kill is suspended for the greater cause.
Luxuries, however, can be abused, such as we saw in history when Catholic inquisitors tortured and murdered for the assumption of higher cause, and again when Protestant refugees turned oppressors in the United States.
thanx,
Tiassa
From war-torn third-world backwaters, we heard many a story through the 1980s about nuns and priests killing soldiers in order to save churches-full of women and children made refugees by tyranny.
Were these killings evil?
If good and evil are fixed and constant, then yes, these killings are evil.
Good and evil are luxuries. One does what one has to for the greater good, and Thou shall not kill is suspended for the greater cause.
Luxuries, however, can be abused, such as we saw in history when Catholic inquisitors tortured and murdered for the assumption of higher cause, and again when Protestant refugees turned oppressors in the United States.
thanx,
Tiassa
Once you are a christian, you're eternal security in heaven is secured, and you are not forced to do anything. It is a love for God that motivates us to do our best to serve Him.
Consider yourself met. I love to serve God voluntarily. I do not fear hellfire if I fail, because I am a Christian asnd am guaranteed eternal life (<i>but to as many as believed, to them gave He eternal life</i>). It is such an awesome thought that God saved me -- even though I am a sinner -- that it motivates me to willingly serve Him in return (<i>I beseech ye therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.</i>). This love for God probably is not explainable unless you have experienced it (<i>We love him, because he first loved us.</i>)
To give the short and simplie version (I can expand on this if you still have questions):
1)All mankind has sinned because of our own free will
2)The penalty for sin is death
3)Therefore, God must sentence us to death because He must be righteous.
4)Because it is impossible for mankind to do good and please God, our only hope of salvation lies in something that God must do.
5)God is also loving, and is willing that none should perish.
6)God loved us so much that he sent Jesus to take our punishment for us.
7)By dying, Jesus -- who was perfect, and did not desrve death -- has satisfied the penalty of our sins for us.
8)Because (and only because) the penalty of death has been paid, God is able to forgive our sins. His justice has been satisfied.
9)If we accept by faith that our penalty has been satisfied in God's eyes through Jesus's death, then we are accepting His gift, and we become saved.
10)Since our penalty has been paid, we are no longer destined for eternal seperation from God, therefore we have eternal life.
To sum it up:
>God's grace: offering us the gift of eternal life (by laying our penalty on His own Son) although we don't deseve it.
>Faith: our accepting God's gift.
"By grace are ye saved through faith,... not of yourselves, it is a gift of God"
I hope that helps somewhat
~Caleb
Thanks Caleb
Now here is the problem I have with your explanation..(well with the whole christ saved me thing)
By your post I can assume that as long as I accept Christ as saviour I can accept my sinfull ways and go right on being sinfull...since my heaven is guaranteed??? I.e. as long as I accept your myth I can become a genocidal maniac and smile about it???
That seems like a poor life philosophy caleb...
I'll respond to the rest by quoting your post (easier and I'm lazy)
(my answer will be preceeded by a ~)...Caleb I'm responding as I see it...it maybe a little strong but don't take it personally its only my perception of christianity.
1)All mankind has sinned because of our own free will
~wasn't it God that gave us this free will?? doesn't that directly say his gift was no gift at all?
2)The penalty for sin is death
~Fine
3)Therefore, God must sentence us to death because He must be righteous.
~why didn't he sentence his rightous self to death...it was his direct influence that made us sinfull...he did it!!!! As I've said a million times before a loving sane parent does not punish their child because the parent failed to teach them how to behave...or worse set them up to misbehave and then rouse on them.
4)Because it is impossible for mankind to do good and please God, our only hope of salvation lies in something that God must do.
~perhaps God should have used his perfection to make less mistakes with us then....I'm sorry but that makes no sense...we are made in his image and yet we can never do good or please him??? This God is sounding less perfect all the time Caleb,
5)God is also loving, and is willing that none should perish.
~so what happened in all those stories of genocide in the bible??? Your God instructed his followers to go and "smite" some poor bastards...kill them, their children, even their livestock??? whats the deal with that??
6)God loved us so much that he sent Jesus to take our punishment for us.
~big deal...Jesus came from heaven to die and go back to heaven he sacrificed NOTHING caleb...and whats Jesus more Gods son then anyone else??? I thought all you christains were his children...howcome he can kill thousands and not bat an eyelid but its a huge sacrifice to kill 1???
7)By dying, Jesus -- who was perfect, and did not desrve death -- has satisfied the penalty of our sins for us.
~Again who was it that set us up to fall?? it was non other then Go9d himself...so the penalty (which was no penalty at all) is moot!!! pointless even...Also you can't die if you are immortal...all Jesus did was shed the "imperfection" of humanity...where is the sacrifice Caleb...what was so great about Jesus dying???
8)Because (and only because) the penalty of death has been paid, God is able to forgive our sins. His justice has been satisfied.
~I still don't understand how the death of Jesus who wasn't even one of us to begin with was more significant then a life of someone who didn't want to loose it??? (and lets face god took enough of those) Human life to Jesus would have been insignificant...again not a sacrifice at all.
9)If we accept by faith that our penalty has been satisfied in God's eyes through Jesus's death, then we are accepting His gift, and we become saved.
~what bloody gift...it was not even worth calling an effort...give Jesus a holiday on earth..and call it a gift..WTF??? As I said in nearly every reply...God MADE us sinfull (by design or by action), he then made a pointless gesture to forgive US for HIS mistakes...and you call it a gift???
10)Since our penalty has been paid, we are no longer destined for eternal seperation from God, therefore we have eternal life.
~That is not penalty I'm willing to accept...I'm not resposible for his mistakes...that big old woose should take resposibilty for his own mistakes, palming them off on defenless inocent things (which he claims to love) is just pure evil!!!
To sum it up:
>God's grace: offering us the gift of eternal life (by laying our penalty on His own Son) although we don't deseve it.
>Faith: our accepting God's gift.
~God's Grace....pfffffffffffffff Gods EGO!!! more like it.
Now Caleb...doesn't the above sound more like the ideas of an ignorant society...I really don't think any perfect being could be that imperfect.
So am I to understand that you are happy to kiss arse to win favor with god?? because that was my point...i.e. your purpose in life is to boost an insecure beings ego....thats kindda perthetic..really caleb if we were talking about a person you'd agree...Your God sounds more like an egotestical insecure pathetic tyrant rather then a loving God!!!! and your doing its will at the cost of your life on earth.
Now here is the problem I have with your explanation..(well with the whole christ saved me thing)
By your post I can assume that as long as I accept Christ as saviour I can accept my sinfull ways and go right on being sinfull...since my heaven is guaranteed??? I.e. as long as I accept your myth I can become a genocidal maniac and smile about it???
That seems like a poor life philosophy caleb...
I'll respond to the rest by quoting your post (easier and I'm lazy)
(my answer will be preceeded by a ~)...Caleb I'm responding as I see it...it maybe a little strong but don't take it personally its only my perception of christianity.
1)All mankind has sinned because of our own free will
~wasn't it God that gave us this free will?? doesn't that directly say his gift was no gift at all?
2)The penalty for sin is death
~Fine
3)Therefore, God must sentence us to death because He must be righteous.
~why didn't he sentence his rightous self to death...it was his direct influence that made us sinfull...he did it!!!! As I've said a million times before a loving sane parent does not punish their child because the parent failed to teach them how to behave...or worse set them up to misbehave and then rouse on them.
4)Because it is impossible for mankind to do good and please God, our only hope of salvation lies in something that God must do.
~perhaps God should have used his perfection to make less mistakes with us then....I'm sorry but that makes no sense...we are made in his image and yet we can never do good or please him??? This God is sounding less perfect all the time Caleb,
5)God is also loving, and is willing that none should perish.
~so what happened in all those stories of genocide in the bible??? Your God instructed his followers to go and "smite" some poor bastards...kill them, their children, even their livestock??? whats the deal with that??
6)God loved us so much that he sent Jesus to take our punishment for us.
~big deal...Jesus came from heaven to die and go back to heaven he sacrificed NOTHING caleb...and whats Jesus more Gods son then anyone else??? I thought all you christains were his children...howcome he can kill thousands and not bat an eyelid but its a huge sacrifice to kill 1???
7)By dying, Jesus -- who was perfect, and did not desrve death -- has satisfied the penalty of our sins for us.
~Again who was it that set us up to fall?? it was non other then Go9d himself...so the penalty (which was no penalty at all) is moot!!! pointless even...Also you can't die if you are immortal...all Jesus did was shed the "imperfection" of humanity...where is the sacrifice Caleb...what was so great about Jesus dying???
8)Because (and only because) the penalty of death has been paid, God is able to forgive our sins. His justice has been satisfied.
~I still don't understand how the death of Jesus who wasn't even one of us to begin with was more significant then a life of someone who didn't want to loose it??? (and lets face god took enough of those) Human life to Jesus would have been insignificant...again not a sacrifice at all.
9)If we accept by faith that our penalty has been satisfied in God's eyes through Jesus's death, then we are accepting His gift, and we become saved.
~what bloody gift...it was not even worth calling an effort...give Jesus a holiday on earth..and call it a gift..WTF??? As I said in nearly every reply...God MADE us sinfull (by design or by action), he then made a pointless gesture to forgive US for HIS mistakes...and you call it a gift???
10)Since our penalty has been paid, we are no longer destined for eternal seperation from God, therefore we have eternal life.
~That is not penalty I'm willing to accept...I'm not resposible for his mistakes...that big old woose should take resposibilty for his own mistakes, palming them off on defenless inocent things (which he claims to love) is just pure evil!!!
To sum it up:
>God's grace: offering us the gift of eternal life (by laying our penalty on His own Son) although we don't deseve it.
>Faith: our accepting God's gift.
~God's Grace....pfffffffffffffff Gods EGO!!! more like it.
Now Caleb...doesn't the above sound more like the ideas of an ignorant society...I really don't think any perfect being could be that imperfect.
So am I to understand that you are happy to kiss arse to win favor with god?? because that was my point...i.e. your purpose in life is to boost an insecure beings ego....thats kindda perthetic..really caleb if we were talking about a person you'd agree...Your God sounds more like an egotestical insecure pathetic tyrant rather then a loving God!!!! and your doing its will at the cost of your life on earth.
Well, you brought up the concept of internal battles and contradictions, as though it was a perfectly normal thing.
It's news to me, although I've noticed people hemming and hawing about things before.
So, if you want to fight internal battles, feel free.
It IS a perfectly normal thing, tony. You just can't seem to accept that. It's easier for you to accept it as DEMONS. You even claim to somehow be immune to this human condition. So while I don't necessarily WANT to fight internal battles, I can accept that life is not full of easy decisions. It is also not full of the need for split second decisions. You seem to be saying that it's always best to make ANY decision immediately, and that if you don't, you must be possessed by demons.
------------------------------------------
As for the rest of this discussion, I have to agree with rambler that christianity (and not JUST christianity) relies on people's fears to bring in new members and keep the ones that were raised by members and never had a choice about it. I also agree that the "sacrifice" of jesus to save us is a silly story, and to believe it you must also believe in the omni-ego of god. If god is all-powerful then why does he need a sacrifice in the first place. Much less need to fabricate a person who is not a person specifically FOR that sacrifice. Why couldn't he just forgive us if that's what he wanted. He's the one with all the power.
NO!!! As Paul says, "God Forbid!" I'll let Paul explain it, since he does such a good job:
<i>Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.</i>
~Caleb
When analysing such quotes we must realise that a sin in this context means disobeying a deity. When no one has shown that such a thing exists then to obey its alleged rules is rather pointless. So let’s see how we can view Paul in that light.
Caleb,
How about a plain English interpretation for those of us who are not ardent followers of your mythology hobby.
Cris
I can’t fathom a meaning to that.
Nope, very unclear what that means.
“Baptised into a death?” Sheer gibberish.
Very symbolic, I hope, but I have no idea what the symbolism means.
Sounds like dead plants growing again.
Where did an old man suddenly come from? A disobedience thing I think.
Ah something that makes sense. For sure when you are dead you can’t do anything.
A belief like a dream, the wonderful delusion that inspires every religious superstition.
A matter of knowledge I think, that no one can confirm – yet another dream.
The words are almost English like but it’s like trying to read a poor translation of Japanese. I wonder if there was a meaning.
Nope, I can’t see the message yet.
I see the request not to disobey but the ‘lusts thereof’ has lost me.
It looks a club of some sort but the rest is more gibberish.
OK I certainly have no intention of disobeying or obeying a fictional character from mythology so I think I am OK on this point.
Nope I’m lost again, but I do obey current laws wherever I am.
Okaaay, I thought the gibberish from the other points was pretty bad but this is the worse so far.
More poor Japanese transaltion I think.
I’m not sure I want to be a servant of anything.
Caleb,
How about a plain English interpretation for those of us who are not ardent followers of your mythology hobby.
Cris
That's all well and good, chris. And I have to admit I agree with you to a point. But you ARE in the "religion" section, so to expect the religious people to just drop the idea of sin because there is no proof that a diety actually exists is expecting a great deal, don't you think?
Yep, what is the point of arguing something when they don't agree on the measure to judge what you're arguing about?
Christians say that God is the measure of good and evil. Others say that man is the ultimate measure. The thing is, man isn't that valid of a measure. Imagine if we all measured distance by our own feet. No one would really know how far things were because one man's 50 feet is another's 30. So we have objective measures of distance to solve the problem.
Maybe the real debate should be, do we need objective measures of right and wrong at all?
A good point, Dan
Here's an Americanism for you: What the hell do we call our outmoded system of measurements? We have, in this country, "standard", and metric. I have no idea if there's another name for "standard", though most Americans don't know the difference between, say, Troy and Avoirdupois weights, and don't know that the terms even exist.
However, as relates measuring distance: That's why we come together in groups and agree that this word describes this distance. Convention.
Just like people come together in groups and agree that God equals this or that. And from that, many derive conventional moral standards, which define right and wrong.
Imagine if we all measured God by our own consciences. Oh, wait ... isn't that the point?
Or are we recommending church society again? God help us all ...
thanx,
Tiassa
That's why we have standards.
Here's an Americanism for you: What the hell do we call our outmoded system of measurements? We have, in this country, "standard", and metric. I have no idea if there's another name for "standard", though most Americans don't know the difference between, say, Troy and Avoirdupois weights, and don't know that the terms even exist.
However, as relates measuring distance: That's why we come together in groups and agree that this word describes this distance. Convention.
Just like people come together in groups and agree that God equals this or that. And from that, many derive conventional moral standards, which define right and wrong.
Imagine if we all measured God by our own consciences. Oh, wait ... isn't that the point?
Or are we recommending church society again? God help us all ...
thanx,
Tiassa