Belief and Conscience

[Seskii]

I have this little theory behind the existance of Afterlife and and judgment after life. Its short but as far i understand it, its pretty to the point.

Humans have a conscience. This conscience makes us feel guilt after an act that has had a bad effect or outcome on some other entity or event etc.

Afterlife is the concept of the next level of existance beyond that which we are in now, and in christianity going to either Heaven, or the lesser option, Hell.

My idea is that this exists because of the human conscience. Hell as i see it serves 2 purposes

1) To scare people straight
2) To sooth our conscience when we die or if someone else dies having commited "Hell worthy trespasses"

So hell is how humans rationalise how humans can commit horrible attrocities on earth, yet still get "Whats coming to them" in the after life.

Not to indepth, not to challenging but i like it

Any thoughts, comments or criticisms?

 

[Tiassa]

Psychology, anthropology, history

Seskii--

I believe psychological research suggests some truth to what you have proposed; cultural anthropology and history both contain data which may well speak to the effects of what you have described. To be honest, I think I just understated the whole thing, but there you go.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[FA_Q2]

Short and sweet. I fully agree.

There is a small part left out and that is heave is a reward for those who believe they deserve it. This comes with life everlasting as well

 

[felix]

Yes, I think you're right. Heaven and Hell are inventions of ours and have no basis in the truth. Unless you want to say that life itself can be heaven or hell, by the ways in which we choose to live our lives.

Is that true about the bible being the most shoplifted book? If so, that's very funny. I wonder if the most payed for book is "Steal This Book" by Abby Hoffman. That would be a slap in the face with a very satisfying **CRACK** to it. Alas, it's probably too much to ask.

 

[Raion]

Maybe it also a bit longer than that.
Maybe, one has to review his/her life and atone for it, then decide what they will do in the next physical life.
Until he/she learns.

 

[dan1123]

This looks okay at first glance--but then you have to look a little underneath the surface. The question to ask is:

<I>Why do we have a conscience at all?</I>

Then you start to get into why we think doing one thing is good, and doing something else is evil.

<i>Who defined good and evil? </i>

Then maybe you could wonder why if one thing is good and another thing evil, then why don't good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. You might ask about our sense of justice and how humanity does a terrible job of carrying it out. So maybe the next question is:

<i>Why isn't there justice in the world?</I>

Then finally, maybe an afterlife would be needed to carry out this justice. And the final question becomes:

<i>Who is the judge?</i>

Something to think about

 

[FA_Q2]

" Who defined good and evil?"

That's easy, society. Don't forget some societies thought human sacrifice, cannibalism, and even in our own history slavery was a good thing to do. Good and Evil are not static but rather defined by all those around you collectively.

 

[dan1123]

That's easy, society. Don't forget some societies thought human sacrifice, cannibalism, and even in our own history slavery was a good thing to do. Good and Evil are not static but rather defined by all those around you collectively.

No offense, I have heard this answer before, but that sort of answer is a big cop-out. It's like saying if you have one red pencil, and you want to draw something blue, just get a lot more red pencils and together they will become blue.

To say society arbitrarily defines good and evil skirts the issue that society is a bunch of people in the first place. If one person cannot define good and evil for himself, then why could a larger collective of people decide on good and evil?

The point is, people want an objective standard for good and evil, society might give them one solution to this desire, but to even want to have someone or something else define good and evil is odd in itself.

Why should people want to have an objective sense of good and evil?

Because if anyone can define good and evil in any way that they please, then there can be no justice.

 

[Tiassa]

Counterpoint

No offense, I have heard this answer before, but that sort of answer is a big cop-out. It's like saying if you have one red pencil, and you want to draw something blue, just get a lot more red pencils and together they will become blue.

I think you're comparing the objective nature of wavelengths of light against the seemingly subjective human nature. Good and evil are human luxuries. Let's project a reality: the book and movie Alive. Let's also make it slightly fictitious so we can make it relevant to you: would you eat your best friend's flesh if it allowed you to survive long enough to get his infant daughter down from the mountain alive?

I would. This is his flesh, given for things more important to him than his own life.

We are, of course, assuming that your friend is already dead from the plane crash.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Bebelina]

Karma

What more is there to say? We learn from our lives. The biblical heaven and hell is just a metaphor of the consequences of our lives. The universal law of karma. You can never escape from that. The lessons not learned i this life, will come up in the next, and the next, and so on, until you have learned. This physical world is so far, far way from everything....and it´s just sad that so many of you are so stuck in a totally materialistic view.

 

[dan1123]

tiassa:
Two lives are more important than one. So what?

Bebelina:
<i>Universal law of karma?</i> You have to be kidding me. People who do atrocities get away with it all the time. And give me some evidence that we are reincarnated. If we are supposed to learn from past lives, why don't we remember them? What is this? Hindu beliefs are now fact and Christian beliefs are "metaphors"?

 

[Tiassa]

Okay ...

So the "evil" of cannibalism is justified by the circumstances? This demonstrates that humans set good and evil: we suspend notions of evil if we believe there to be a greater cause.

To return to the Andean plane crash: If God sets notions of good and evil, but the cannibalism is justified by the greater cause of preserving the living, for what reason did these survivors need God's forgiveness (thorugh the device of the church institution) for their cannibalism? There was, in fact, a fair amount of public discussion about that at the time.

If the cannibalism was justified by the cause of the living, there is no sin to forgive, is there?

So, how about you: Would you consume the flesh of your best friend for the greater cause of his young daughter's life?

Myself? I'd probably start with the chest or back, and then hack off a leg for sustenance on the trek out of the mountains. (I figure it's only fair to answer my own question in this case, since I'm pushing you for an answer.)

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[felix]

I think it's true that good and evil are "human luxeries". I think internal battle we face is a direct result of being acutely aware of our own existence, accompanied with the fact that we have no idea why we exist. I have this theory that the story of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge is really a representation of our step into sentience and the confusion it caused us. Our awareness came full circle and sucker punched us on the chin. Before that we instinctively went about filling whatever niche we had in "the garden of eden" or "earth" as I like to call it, never questioning our existence.

bebelina, who makes karma? is it GOD? or is it more like A god or goddess? or is karma a force in itself? does our own conscience create karma for itself?.......Also, i don't know that life DOES exist without the physical world. Maybe the physical world is just thought anyway.

 

[dan1123]

tiassa:

So the "evil" of cannibalism is justified by the circumstances? This demonstrates that humans set good and evil: we suspend notions of evil if we believe there to be a greater cause.

Jesus broke several of God's laws for the benefit of people who really needed it--for instance, healing people on the Sabbath.

Those who took God's laws by the letter, while ignoring the spirit of the law, thought they had caught Jesus sinning--however, it was Jesus who really understood what the law was for.

I wouldn't condone killing someone else in that, but if someone had already died, and the only way of sustaining your life in order that your daughter would have a father in the future, then it would be hideously neglectful for you <i>not</i> to keep yourself alive for her sake.

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by Seskii
My idea is that this exists because of the human conscience. Hell as i see it serves 2 purposes

1) To scare people straight
2) To sooth our conscience when we die or if someone else dies having commited "Hell worthy trespasses"

So hell is how humans rationalise how humans can commit horrible attrocities on earth, yet still get "Whats coming to them" in the after life.

Nope.

Hell is for storing corpses.

A couple of definitions, one Hebrew, one Greek...

07585 sh@'owl {sheh-ole'} or sh@ol {sheh-ole'}
from 07592; TWOT - 2303c; n f
AV - grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
1a) the underworld
1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead

86 hades {hah'-dace}
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc
AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

Originally posted by Bebelina
What more is there to say?

You ask this question on a message board?

We learn from our lives.

What have you learned?

The biblical heaven and hell is just a metaphor of the consequences of our lives.

Some metaphor.
Cemeteries are full of hells, i.e. graves.

The universal law of karma. You can never escape from that. The lessons not learned i this life, will come up in the next, and the next, and so on, until you have learned.

Karma is such a pointless doctrine.
What can you even remember, let alone learn, from your "previous" lives?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(Hebrews 9:27, KJV).

This physical world is so far, far way from everything

Actually, it is right here.

....and it´s just sad that so many of you are so stuck in a totally materialistic view.

You should get along great with tiassa; he is stuck in a totally tetrahydrocannabinolistic view.

Originally posted by felix
I think internal battle we face is a direct result of being acutely aware of our own existence, accompanied with the fact that we have no idea why we exist.

I think the internal battle may be a demon.
After all, if you agree with yourself, there wouldn't be a battle.

 

[Tiassa]

Wow, Tony, a big word. We're so proud of you

You should get along great with tiassa; he is stuck in a totally tetrahydrocannabinolistic view.

Did you need an encyclopaedia to figure that one out? At any rate, we're proud of your quarter words: have yourself some cookies and milk; you deserve them, because you're using big-boy words now.

Now then ... I just don't get why you seem to use my place in the natural mode of human consumption as something to elevate your arguments. After all, those who take in no delta-9 THC are in the unnatural state; even by the silly creationist faction of 6000 years, you're criticizing what life God has given us; after all, it's approximately 1% of that time (64 years) that marijuana has been illegal. So in that context, we might consider the "decay of society" that so many religionists and moralists lament; perhaps we should lay off the plant and reintroduce it to our culture. In such a deprived, surrogate state, you prohibitionist moralists are making less and less sense by the day.

Karma is such a pointless doctrine

Are you at all familiar with modern Western interpretations of Karma? If you've not read Starhawk's Spiral Dance, then we can well consider you unqualified to say jack about Karma. Since most Western Karmists have it slightly wrong in the same way that doctrinal Christians have it wrong--a dose of literalism--we must clarify in which context you are disparaging an age-old concept that predates the Christian plague. So perhaps you could tell us your bibliography regarding Karma. The Bible never mentions it specifically, so that's out. Tell us about your theological reading list, please. Thus far, all we know about you is that you hate Catholics and generally prefer to avoid ever supporting your opinions with any factual or perceptual basis. If you can't give us some genuine empirical perspective--i.e., one you can base on experience instead of dogma--then I think you're about as well-qualified to discuss Karma as any other subject you disparage: not at all.

Here's a way you can establish at least a seed of credibility on the subject, Tony ... tell us what you don't like about the Karmic Law of Threes (Threefold Law). I doubt you can.

In the meantime, here's the link to Chick Ministries, International: http://www.chick.com/default.asp

I figure you'd like them on the one hand because they hate Catholics, just like you do. To the other, you'll probably not like them because they believe in a different Hell than you describe. Of course, this is to be expected, right? Since, after all, God gave such good instructions in the Bible that every Christian out there agrees on what it means, right?

You ask this question on a message board?

While it's not my place to speak for anyone, I believe you're missing a contextual standard: What more is there to say of value? After all, I think she was referring to intelligent, useful somethings to say; in that sense, Tony, babble away: she most definitely wasn't talking to you.

--Tiassa

 

[felix]

Re: Re: Belief and Conscience

Originally posted by tony1

I think the internal battle may be a demon.
After all, if you agree with yourself, there wouldn't be a battle.

A demon? Your telling me you've never had a conflict of your own interests? No internal condradictions? You've never wondered the "right" thing to do in a certain situation is? Or are you saying that you always just accepted these phenomena as demons?


demons?

 

[Seskii]

Look at it this way then, Hell is a metaphore for Punishment, and Heaven is a metaphore for reward. Dont look at these places as an actual physical place, but as a kind of Judgment of soughts.

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by tiassa
Now then ... I just don't get why you seem to use my place in the natural mode of human consumption as something to elevate your arguments.

You're forgetting that altho you sound so incredibly wise to yourself while higher than a kite, you don't sound all that wise to others.

After all, those who take in no delta-9 THC are in the unnatural state; even by the silly creationist faction of 6000 years, you're criticizing what life God has given us;

Poison oak is legal, so why don't you smoke that?

In such a deprived, surrogate state, you prohibitionist moralists are making less and less sense by the day.

I suspect that many other things are making less and less sense by the day, nay by the minute.

Are you at all familiar with modern Western interpretations of Karma?

Why would I want to look at Western interpretations of an Eastern doctrine?
Presumably, the Hindus, who have been dealing with the concept of karma for thousands of years, would understand it better than westerners who have been familiar with it for only a few decades.

If you've not read Starhawk's Spiral Dance, then we can well consider you unqualified to say jack about Karma.

Like Starhawk is some kind of expert in Hindu doctrine.

... I think you're about as well-qualified to discuss Karma as any other subject you disparage: not at all.

So you see in me a kindred spirit?

I figure you'd like them on the one hand because they hate Catholics, just like you do. To the other, you'll probably not like them because they believe in a different Hell than you describe.

Since I don't hate Catholics and I get my description of Hell out of the Bible, you must be thinking of something else.

...she most definitely wasn't talking to you.

I don't remember her mentioning your name.

Originally posted by felix
A demon? Your telling me you've never had a conflict of your own interests? No internal condradictions? You've never wondered the "right" thing to do in a certain situation is?

Internal contradictions are for people sitting in a chair.

Mountains and white water tend to kill you if you suffer from internal contradiction.

Or are you saying that you always just accepted these phenomena as demons?

I have to admit I've sometimes wondered what people are doing when they are unable to make a decision.

In descriptions of demon possession, the idea of internal contradiction comes up quite often.

The question is: who is contradicting whom?
The comment I personally have heard from people who have had demons cast out is, "I thought it was me thinking all those thoughts."

Originally posted by Seskii
Look at it this way then, Hell is a metaphore for Punishment, and Heaven is a metaphore for reward. Dont look at these places as an actual physical place, but as a kind of Judgment of soughts.

Why would I want to do that?
Hell is the grave, so why would I want to look at it as a metaphor?

 

[Seskii]

Care to make a valid point rather then criticise everyone elses?