Atheists: What would it take?

So, you are both saying that no matter what, you could and would never believe in God?
No matter what he did, he couldn't prove it to you?
Click to expand...

Whoops, I wasn't referring to myself, but rather athiests in general. They can find any reason to disprove what they're seeing as was mentioned earlier (hallucinations, dreaming, was drugged, etc).

Me, personally? I do believe in an almighty creator of all God. If someone were to do some supernatural things and proclaim that they're that God, I wouldn't believe them though. I believe THE God to be on such a higher plane than us that there's no way he'd be able to interact with us on such a small scale such as morphing into a human. God interacting with us would be like us to ants or us to a molecule which just isn't possible.

However, if a being did do supernatural acts and claimed to be God, I would believe in what I'm seeing. I would think of them as a highly intellegent being that is techically advanced. Today, we can currently make people see visions by tweaking with their brain. Who knows what we'll be able to do in the future. Make us float over the Grand Canyon? Use either some interactive holographic room, or a real craft that happens to be translucent, or just flat out use some little device or telepathy, if it exists, that is able to control me into seeing what I'm seeing without me having to sit down in a chair as required for us to cause brain tweak hallucinations today.

I think that's at least as closed-minded as those that DO believe in him, but I guess that's an issue for another thread.
Click to expand...

I agree.

- N
 
Now, it seems to me that we have two discussions here.

1) What would convince ME (and you and you)

2) What would convince the character in your book.

I'll start with #1:

Obviously, as somebody already mentioned, God (being omniscient and all that) would know what it would take. But not only that; God would also be capable of reaching into my mind and simply MAKING me believe. So, unless he was on one of his usual riddle making missions (you hafta believe in your heart, with no real evidence), he should have no problem.

As this scenario is hardly convincing in a book, let's look at #2:

First of all, it is your book, so you decide exactly what it takes to convince your character, but of course it must be something that appears reasonably convincing to the reader, too.

Now, stopping time, taking you for a flight without an airplane, etc. would be pretty impresive, however, it would still just be great magic (which, as we know, might just be sufficiently advanced technology). For your actual omnipotent God, one might expect something in an entirely different league; like granting me one, world-changing whish.

So, if this guy says to me: "I'm God, and I have my reasons to be wanting to prove this to you personally, so I'll grant you one wish with which you can make the world better." And I say: "OK, I want all terrorists and rabid fundies to lay down their weapons and support democracy." .. And on that evenings news, I see them piling up their AK47's and setting fire to them, whereafter their leaders sit down at the conference tables to negotiate unconditional peace. After that, I'd see no reason to doubt.

In a lighter vein, if I first wanted a bridge to Hawai, and then to understand how women are thinking, and he granted the latter, I would KNOW he's God ;).

Hans

Hans
 
one_raven said:
What if you disagree with the things he says?
What if you deem him an asshole?
Click to expand...
You mean, what if he turns out to be a Republican? I guess I'd ask him where Bhudda is hanging out these days?
one_raven said:
Let's say you accept that he has some "powers" but can't decide if he is God, the Devil or an alien?
What would put you over the top?
Click to expand...
Motivation. Why is he revealing himself to me? Does it feel right.
I think you could make something of the fact that even when God confronts us face to face then, for the skeptic, belief still depends upon an act of faith.
 
this is what you do, and it aint my idea but is extremely primaL...

you sit in a wonderful abundant garden,
and you have a most wonderfully decorated Jug, which seems to have serpents coiled about it, in carefully crafted natrual ways

Nearby is a running stream of water, and the wild wood is all around

you have two goblets which are also aesthetically pleasing, and scattered around are some basic instruments- a tambourine, a drum, fluts, cymbals

as character apporaches into this delightful, welcoming sanctuary, you welcom her/him and you both sit and talk, and not-talk, and listen to the sounds of the wood, and steam......
you then offer the character a goblet into which you have poured the sacrament. you both partake of the contents of the Jug

you ask other if they'd like to try out some of the instruments

so you begin playing, and soon are in ecstasy, and celebrating Eros..

from there, the question of what 'God' is is really besides the point~~~~~
 
That may not be what you have in mind, but certainly not every atheist would have the strength of mind to dismiss his own hand suddenly sprouting seven fingers.

Since it's only a story, your atheist can be as strong minded or as weak minded as you wish, to be convinced by something trivial or only something extremely convincing.

For myself, sitting here typing into the sciforum website, I know that nothing would convince me of the supernatural that could not also be achieved by illusion or trickery or even just hypnotism or drugs. The brain, after all, is fallible.

But that's because I'm sitting here not experiencing anything out of the ordinary. If I were actually to experience what Jim Carrey does in Bruce Almighty - with the hand, with the filing cabinet - how would I react? Would it be easier to believe in the existence of a real, personal God who was talking to me .... or that I had actually gone insane? Easier? Or just a lot less frightening?

As I say, for the purposes of fiction, you can cut the string where you like and make it just as convincing as you need to. Enough to convince your character - or enough to convince the reader? That's up to you. And it depends on how good a writer you are!
 
After a few conversations he tells you that he is God.
What would he have to do to convince you?
Click to expand...
Nothing, I already knew that. To a Hindu, it would also be obvious.
 
One_Raven:
Excellent idea, now if you give me a few seconds (not being cynical or vituperative here so listen):

Let's say he stopped time for just you and him, for example, and did stuff (whatever magnificent stuff you can imagine) but no one else could see it?
Would you discount that as hypnosis or illusion?
What if he turned time back so you can view yourself as a child and observe your memories happening before you?
Would you be able to easlily discount that?
Click to expand...

This is just a clichéd as the King Novel, no?- every movie director and writer have for years dazzled audiences with a character's supernatural prowess.

They're all mind reading hypnotists who can fly with their eyes closed to Calcutta and heal lepers or crush diamond from coal.
Boring.

But this-
What if you disagree with the things he says?
What if you deem him an asshole?

Let's say you accept that he has some "powers" but can't decide if he is God, the Devil or an alien?
What would put you over the top?
Click to expand...

You just described a woman.
Why not make her a woman?

You can make the protagonist a cold nihilist- he's got a logical reason for everything- but he comes across an ugly or average creature that surprisingly captures him.

He can't explain why this organism should have so much influence on him- she's fickle, abusive, cynical, a tad immature and a little too self-righteous for something so average and small.
And she’s always contradicting herself.
Yet he can't explain his need of her, so that even his dreams and nightmares are haunted by her in her absence.

He disagrees with everything she says- her world is that of a shepherds, narrow, patrician, and ancient- and his that of a capitalist or a scientist’s, yet he finds himself every Sunday by her side enslaved to her ancient logic.
Sound familiar?
Her power is his loneliness, it makes him a dumb animal.

Everyone sees a “devil”, but he’s doing what all the religious do by embellishing on the good and ignoring the bad in her- as all lovers do with their lovers.

To use your own words, he can’t decide whether this thing is God, the Devil, or an alien.
He has periods of fanaticism intermingled with resolve to finally leave her, and when he does he ends up stalking her.
As most atheists do when they give up their god.

And you can make this god-person even more powerful- he never gets to touch her.
That’s the trick- I think this describes all religions.

You can even switch the genders, this works for humans en general.
A woman strangely captured by an average man, that he beats her and she kisses his fists for it.
That's how they find out this person is god.
Something like that.

Too much?
 
Last edited:
1) "In the future no one will believe in anything. No one that is except the nihilists. They'll still believe in nothing." gx jupitter-larsen

2) nothing doesn't exist.

3) Gendanken, your post makes me sad, because there are no fairytales available for me now. Only pleasure with pain attached. Just as you describe it. Except for the fists. And what if she doen't wipe away his loneliness? What if she just suffers and exults with him? Why love her?

4) I wouldn't believe the God scenario. I would rather hear the motive for coming to me than see magical signs. What's the big secret? Why not just appear to everyone if it is time for God to walk upon the earth?
 
Last edited:
one_raven said:
Athelwulf said:
the Judeo-Christian God (which is who I assume ya mean).
Click to expand...
Well, no, not exactly.
Click to expand...

Well, now that I know this detail, I can clarify and expand. I could possibly believe that this person is a god, but not the God.
 
There is te further moral complication. The god conceived of monotheists is a vile monstrosity. Even if it was proved to exist and that grovelling to it in the right way got rewarded I hope I would have the courage to refuse to believe in it.
 
(Fuck the raven, a toast to his fingers falling off.
Bad writers should be penailized)

3) Gendanken, your post makes me sad, because there are no fairytales available for me now. Only pleasure with pain attached. Just as you describe it. Except for the fists. And what if she doen't wipe away his loneliness? What if she just suffers and exults with him? Why love her?
Click to expand...
Because the lonely need the logic of god, the way the starved need a food.
Your body can well do without, but your mind cannot-and that's the trick.


AND DAMN YOU ALL!

I thought it was a good idea. Even somersaulted through the writing it.

BAH!!!!!!! Shoulda known better.
 
gendanken said:
Because the lonely need the logic of god, the way the starved need a food.
Your body can well do without, but your mind cannot-and that's the trick.
Click to expand...

BAH!!!!!

Belief in God is not a magic pill.
It does not fix your life, and protect you, or your mind, from all problems.
This idea is a lie perpetrated by those who wish to turn a religion into a simple easy recipe, when it is nothing of the sort. Easy, microwaveable, ziploc'ed packages of God.
That is a joke.
The earth is not a playground for anyone except by extremely unlikely preponderances of wealth, family stability, physical health, etc., etc., etc., and even then they must be blind to the needs of the rest of the planet to continue to think it a happy little sandbox.
A pox on this idea, and anyone who wants to pretend that it is some sort of necessity in my life, or anyone elses. And to the religious - sorry, no fairytales this lifetime, or easy answers.
 
All you other people seem to focus on him proving something to you (which I guess is what the question is, but...). I would prove it myself. I would shoot him in the face, and if he didn't die, I would be convinced.

If that is too extreme, I would have him make it so I had to poop real bad (assuming I didn't have to poop real bad to begin with), or do something that makes a physical change in something without physically touching it.

Nothing he could tell me would convince me that he was God. I would have to have physical evidence of extraordinary power to be convinced.
 
There are atheists out there that not only do not believe in God, but they would deny him even if He was standing right in front them. One day you atheists will stand before God and be given your final choice to accept him. What will you do when you then have a perfect knowledge of his existence? Would you change your mind and accept him, or would you tell him to take a hike even though you would know for certain you would be banished forever? What would you do?
 
"Banished" from an eternal life singing an undending hymn of praise to God?

Give me total nonexistance.....just not yet!
 
Brutus1964 said:
There are atheists out there that not only do not believe in God, but they would deny him even if He was standing right in front them. One day you atheists will stand before God and be given your final choice to accept him. What will you do when you then have a perfect knowledge of his existence? Would you change your mind and accept him, or would you tell him to take a hike even though you would know for certain you would be banished forever? What would you do?
Click to expand...
Like I said, if this preposterous eventuality should happen,I hope I would have the courage to ask: "What's your excuse?"
 
I would ask 'him':
  • Why bother to create man if you already know the outcome of man's existence?
  • Why create both good and evil to divide a creation that you already control?
  • Is not this all just a perverted game?
Then I would declare him to be a lunatic
 
marv

• Why bother to create man if you already know the outcome of man's existence?

The universe is not created but it is a reflection of God standing between two mirrors.

• Why create both good and evil to divide a creation that you already control?

The duality, the good and evil, exists only in the human mind, or do you think rocks see anything evil in this world?

• Is not this all just a perverted game?

No.
 
You provide some pretty affirmative responses, Yorda, but they seem to be a little disjointed. Can you prove any of them true?
 
Marv

I speak of what I know, I follow my inner voice, you see. I don't know if it's possible to prove anything, I can only make it sound believable.
I'm sure I'm telling the truth... this doesn't mean it's true for others!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top