Are you really trying to equate slavery with baldness? I thought you were more intelligent than that. :bugeye:
It is no farce, and it is not dishonest. It is a simple application of logic.. Your statement that objectivity is irrelevant because the enslaved has feelings obviously puts some degree of import on one's feelings. So, as a moral basis, everyone's feelings then becomes part of the goal. This is not deceptive argumentation, but rather Socratic logic. If a point cannot be argued in such a manner then it is missing steps.
This is precisely my point. You have quite handily identified the subjectivity associated with the question of slavery. It is "good" for the enslaver and "bad" for the enslaved. Which is more valuable? Who is "right"? Some objective basis has to be established if you are going to make a call of right and wrong beyond just one's own personal feelings.
How is what one wants a basis for morality? It is completely subjective, and meaningless beyond the self.
No, the lack of any belief is agnosticism. Atheism is a positive belief in God's NON-existence. It is overtly militant, even hateful. Take Richard Dawkins, please.
And as to "proofs," consider:
1. Brandon Carter's seminal paper, "Large Number Coincidences and the Anthropic Principle"
And please, no claims of Multiverses, and we JUST happen to be in the "right" one.
2. The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell.
3. Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis, a former atheist who set out to prove there is no God.
4. Likewise Sir Anthony Flew is a convert of considerable influence.
Was Jesus being subjective when he said,"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?
Honestly, yes he was... all we have to go by is ourselves. Hopefully people realize that we are all in this together. We can subjugate or we can cooperate.
Give odds of ANYTHING to one and the argument that we are the lucky ones is valid.
Ae you an atheist? If not, what gives you the right to say what atheism is or is not? Atheists themselves do not, by and large, say that they have a positive belief that God does not exist.
Compared to what? Militant Islam, say?
I haven't seen Richard running around bombing people.
Could you briefly summarise Mr Carter's seminal paper for those of us who haven't had the privilege of reading it?
Could you please summarise Mr McDowell's main arguments?
Could you please summarise Mr Lewis's arguments for us?
Why is one man's supposed conversion supposed to prove something?
abhijithvp
Registered Member
sry, guys .. what are you ppl discussing abt? During the course of life, one has to believe in something. . . Religious ppl believ in ideality n atheists believe in reality. But believing in ideality require lesser efforts..dats what i think.
Well, you're an atheist aren't you?
You said atheists realise there IS no SKY DADDY, didn't you?
That claim requires smartness (at least) wouldn't you say?
Unless of course you were talking out of your ass. Again.
jan.
birch,
My point is, they (as in atheists) do claim or imply that slavery (itself) is evil, which is why I ask the question; why is slavery (itself) evil?
Some people who eat meat from supermarkets, butchers, resteraunts, and other similar outlets, believe that animal cruelty is wrong. So what use is their
subjective opinion, when taken apart?
Let's forget "what can be defined as immoral" and go straight to the evolutionary question. Is slavery wrong, and if yes, why??
At last, an answer to my question, as it rules out personal opinion.
So slavery (itself) is NOT immoral.
However the enslaver can either have high morals, or low morals.
So if such a person (organisation) can be taught to see people as fellow human beings, is that not a beneficial thing?
Not quite the nature of the question.
theist: why are atheists accusing god of being immoral or wrong in in the light of evolution? , is more appropriate.
Try not to take it personally. Like I said, some meat eaters are against cruelty to animals. They really are, but they cannot give up eating meat, so they justify stuff. This is called being smart, but sweeps intelligence under the carpet.
It's okay now, you've answered my question. Thanks.
jan.
My point is, they (as in atheists) do claim or imply that slavery (itself) is evil, which is why I ask the question; why is slavery (itself) evil?
Some people who eat meat from supermarkets, butchers, resteraunts, and other similar outlets, believe that animal cruelty is wrong. So what use is their
subjective opinion, when taken apart?
Let's forget "what can be defined as immoral" and go straight to the evolutionary question. Is slavery wrong, and if yes, why??
At last, an answer to my question, as it rules out personal opinion.
So slavery (itself) is NOT immoral.
However the enslaver can either have high morals, or low morals.
So if such a person (organisation) can be taught to see people as fellow human beings, is that not a beneficial thing?
Not quite the nature of the question.
theist: why are atheists accusing god of being immoral or wrong in in the light of evolution? , is more appropriate.
Try not to take it personally. Like I said, some meat eaters are against cruelty to animals. They really are, but they cannot give up eating meat, so they justify stuff. This is called being smart, but sweeps intelligence under the carpet.
It's okay now, you've answered my question. Thanks.
jan.
Wrong. Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge not faith. For some reason, theists often get this wrong. Agnosticism isn't some apologetic middle ground between faith and atheism, it's not about not having made your mind up, it's a definite statement.
Atheism is simply a lack of faith in your God(s).
No it isn't. I just don't believe in what others describe to me as being their God.
Inquisitions were loving, were they? Fatwahs are loving? Crusades were all about 'turning the other cheek' were they? Killing in the name of your religion is hateful.
I'd be happy to take him for a pint, yes.
So Brandon is a puddle;
"... imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be all right, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for." (Douglas Adams)
Coincidences, ... well, with a couple of hundred billions stars in our galaxy alone, coincidences are going to happen, aren't they?
Well, if we didn't exist, because this version of the Universe wasn't conducive to the formation of life, we wouldn't be here to question anything would we? So the question only exists, because we do. The Universe may well have have expanded and collapsed a million times or more, before life formed. We just can't know. Or maybe, given that there are over 100 elements in the periodic table, given some slightly different Universal constants in a differing Universe, different elements would combine to form life? You are aware, that some crustaceans have Copper based blood, aren't you? That it isn't all 'just so' to make us the way we are, there is wiggle room, and we could have evolved with different chemistry.
Ha, no. The Romans liked to document things, and had scribes, and somehow, just somehow, there is no corroboration of the existence of Jesus. The Romans didn't get interested until many years after the stories gained popularity, and then they wrote the NT the way they wanted people to see it.
Oh dear, clearly you haven't been reading the thread. Lewis made arguments based on some external morality. Given that God has said it's OK to keep slaves, is that included in God's morality? Do you think it's OK to enslave people? Actually, the bible in conflicted on the matter, God seems to take sides, it's OK for some, but not others to do so. Oddly, he seems to tell his followers it's OK, and punishes the Sun worshippers. Odd that, eh?
But I guess you are a christian, given you offered nothing from either of the other Abrahamic schisms. So, given they have holy books like yours, why aren't they right?
Six years before he died, and with his mental capacity declining. Yeah, right, strong argument you have there,.... NOT.
Hatred is a universal human characteristic.
No, atheism is a defensive position.
The theists have an offensive position.
I completely forget the "existence of God" until he is brought up by theists.
I never look for theists to convince them that there is no God.
I think you reverse the roles, and you do not know who burned whom.
You hit the nail squarely on the head...I agree 100% with this statement.
An atheist has nothing to gain by convincing a theist there is no God..
A theist on the other hand does stand to gain...You wish to add to your ranks, convincing yourselves that what you believe, must be true.
Religion is organized...Atheism isn't..
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you are misrepresenting my statements or misunderstanding them. this is really stupid. it's like saying, rape "itself" is not immoral, but the rapist that has high or low morals. absolute nonsense. slavery is not an inanimate object. slavery is based on exploitation and disregard of another's life, so therefore it's immoral. why it's immoral is because all do care about life including the enslaver and thus the willful disregard of it is hypocritical. therefore it is "wrong" whether people do it or not.
and no, your question has been answered way before many times, whether and when you recognized one to your satisfaction is another matter.
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OK, if you insist, I'll accept that I am smarter than you.
Wrong. Not collecting stamps is not a defensive position. Not being able to play guitar is not a defensive position. Not believing in God is not a defensive position.
Got it?
Who is God? Who is God to you? Well you came from someone else. Everyone comes from their dad. Ergo dad is God.