Atheists please answer this

[Neverfly]

chance does not equal accident.
yes a rock falls due to gravity. but provided nobody has purposely thrown the rock at the tree, it hits the tree by chance.
I suppose in a sense the rock did hit the tree by accident because nobody meant it to, but in saying that it implies there had to be somebody throwing the rock in the first place, and that they did not mean to break the tree.

Ok, I have me convinced, if you say that the creation of life was an accident then you imply someone did not mean it to happen. So therefore life is created by chance because it happened even though there was a possibility it might not happen and nobody (especially not some mythical old man) helped it along. it is by chance alone that the chemicals meet although like the rock and branch they inevitably react.
I am not sure if that is what you are getting at but that is what i took from it i am sorry for my large irrelevant post. i am rather overtired

And congratulations on your second post.

I'd welcome you to the forum, but I'm public enemy number one around here and hated by most. To welcome you here would prove your undoing, as the mob would descend upon you to uncover what reason you received my encouragement.

So... Get outta here!

In the meantime, yeah- totally relevant post and as I said, I'm glad you brought it up. On my side, you helped me scratch an itch.
And for you, I helped you look at things from another angle.

And that's why we are here.

 

[cruiser]

Its ok. i have a big stick. mobs i can handle.
English on the other hand it seems is not my forte,
Words are just not my thing

 

[cruiser]

let me make it simple for you : science is limited

Science is limited only by human intelligence and inability to grasp the most complex ideas.
Religion however, limits you with an inability to grasp reality.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Science is limited only by human intelligence and inability to grasp the most complex ideas.

And how limited is human intelligence?
Can science work this out?

Religion however, limits you with an inability to grasp reality.

Why?

jan.

 

[BWE1]

Your disbelief in god is purely subjective, based on your own personal needs. Atheism is wish fulfilment.

the irony in this sentence is strong.

 

[NMSquirrel]

lol..

unless god directed the rock to break the branch, cause otherwise if left to grow, would have broken by itself and fallen into the puddle of muck, disturbing the processes which formed life..

 

[Neverfly]

lol..

unless god directed the rock to break the branch, cause otherwise if left to grow, would have broken by itself and fallen into the puddle of muck, disturbing the processes which formed life..

Whatever. This post is just a clump of "I'm making stuff up to validate nothing."

 

[NMSquirrel]

Whatever. This post is just a clump of "I'm making stuff up to validate nothing."

wasn't claiming anything about anything..the example used was just an example to clarify the term accident..

i only put my two cents in for a chuckle..

 

[Neverfly]

wasn't claiming anything about anything..the example used was just an example to clarify the term accident..

i only put my two cents in for a chuckle..

That was a clarification?

No...

THIS is a clarification:

If a rock tumbles down a slope and breaks a branch off of a tree, was that an accident?
The usage of the word implies, "Mistake" or "Causation by error."

This is why creationists are quick to use this word. The implication being that intelligence IS involved as an axiom- as they believe in a god. To them, that is absolute whether there is any evidence or not. Since the Origin Question is scientifically uninvolved with a divine answer; that 'chance' happened when a god was present is most definitely an accident.

But you wouldn't say that a rock broke a tree by accident, would you? Because that doesn't deal with the hand of God. No on cares about the tree and no one is going to assume God set out to smite it.
No one is likely to think that the rock was intelligent and made an error in judgment. Or that it failed to avoid the tree...
So they would say, "The rock just fell and it happened to hit this tree here..."
Oh ok- THEN chance is ok... whatever.

No, it was not an accident, no more than is a rock falling due to gravity an accident.

Chemicals reacting to each other is no accident. If one happens to come across another that is reactive to it- they react. They don't react by accident.

It is the property of the chemicals to react with each other.

Let's change your statement:

Unless a Fairy directed a rock...

Unless a magic Dragon directed a rock...

Unless Paul Bunyan directed a rock...

And nothing changes. Any fantasy can be used to justify an intelligent hand that requires no proof.

 

[cruiser]

And how limited is human intelligence?
Can science work this out?.

sure. provided you have a human with enough intelligence to work out how to do it.
for example. It used to be a commonly held view that earthquakes were some sort of attack from god because you had angered him.
They're not.
They are a release of stored energy within the earth.
It just took humans ages to be able to scientificly prove this.
The science was there the whole time. It was just the humans that couldnt work it out.
I have no idea how limited human intelligence is. because what scale are you supposed to measure it with? i guess all knowing is right up the top, but untill you know everything how can you know how much there actually is to know.
very confusing.:bugeye: and to be honest, kind of irrelevant

Why?

because quite plainly, you believe in a magical entity that controls every last little detail of everything that happens and ever will happen.
because religious people actually believe what their chosen religious text has written in it.
I actually know people who believe their were no organisms such as dinosaurs or amonites.
When showed an amonite fossil from milllions of years ago my friend turned to me and told me that it wasnt real,
That god had just put it on the earth to test our faith and i had obviously failed.
i thought she was joking. turns out this is infact a widely held belief within christian religions....
You know your having issues with reality when you have to make excuses for your religion because it just doesnt fit the reality thats staring you in the face.

 

[Jan Ardena]

cruiser,

sure. provided you have a human with enough intelligence to work out how to do it.

So limted human intelligence can successfully find out the limits of human intelligence providing it has enough human intelligence to do so?
Does your brain hurt?

for example. It used to be a commonly held view that earthquakes were some sort of attack from god because you had angered him.

But it's not the entire view.

They're not.
They are a release of stored energy within the earth.

That doesn't mean that God, or a god cannot be the cause of particular earthquakes, or that the earth who is regarded (in some worldviews) as a goddess. My point is, you are seeing it from a perspective which may not explain the whole thing.

It just took humans ages to be able to scientificly prove this.
The science was there the whole time. It was just the humans that couldnt work it out.

I think folks who have been in an earthquake have firsthand understanding that the earth is being moved by some sort of energy. Scientific explanation not necessary.

I have no idea how limited human intelligence is. because what scale are you supposed to measure it with?

Then how do you know it's limited?

i guess all knowing is right up the top, but untill you know everything how can you know how much there actually is to know.
very confusing.:bugeye: and to be honest, kind of irrelevant

Then don't comment on it then.
We all know science is limited, leave it at that.

..because quite plainly, you believe in a magical entity that controls every last little detail of everything that happens and ever will happen.

Oh do I?
There you go again, talking shit.
Go learn about that which you have been programed to hate.

because religious people actually believe what their chosen religious text has written in it.

So?

I actually know people who believe their were no organisms such as dinosaurs or amonites.

Birds of a feather.....

When showed an amonite fossil from milllions of years ago my friend turned to me and told me that it wasnt real,

How do you know it was real?

i thought she was joking. turns out this is infact a widely held belief within christian religions....

Which is why you shouldn't lump people into categories because they title themself as "christians". And you should understand that there are many schools of thought which use science as a tool to understand the world while believing in God.

know your having issues with reality when you have to make excuses for your religion because it just doesnt fit the reality thats staring you in the face.

Can you explain reality to us?

jan.

 

[cruiser]

cruiser,



So limted human intelligence can successfully find out the limits of human intelligence providing it has enough human intelligence to do so?
Does your brain hurt?

not as much as it would if i hadnt been the one who said that first?

But it's not the entire view.

i apologise. enlighten me on what people thought earthquakes were other than a god. that is untill geology asserted its awesomeness over all of us

That doesn't mean that God, or a god cannot be the cause of particular earthquakes, or that the earth who is regarded (in some worldviews) as a goddess. My point is, you are seeing it from a perspective which may not explain the whole thing.

no its a perfectly plausible idea if you stretch the imagination a little. it doesnt mean its real though....
My point is, you are seeing it from a perspective which may not be... real?

I think folks who have been in an earthquake have firsthand understanding that the earth is being moved by some sort of energy. Scientific explanation not necessary.

i have been in many earthquakes.... i live in a small country with lots of fault zones.... a scientific explanation my not be necessary but its very interesting.... and real?

Then how do you know it's limited?

do you believe that what humans know right now is all they will ever know?

Then don't comment on it then.
We all know science is limited, leave it at that.

but you used that at the top of your post...... dont be so gosh darn hypocritical

Oh do I?
There you go again, talking shit.
Go learn about that which you have been programed to hate.

sorry i assumed you believed in some sort of judeo-christian religion.
go and learn about it? i was bought up by catholics, went to catholic school and believed in god for quite some time thanks.

So?

so i dont believe in harry potter? and youd probably think i was slightly mad if i did. try to see from my perspective.

How do you know it was real?

shall we call it faith? oh and the fact that i could see where the soft tissues of the amonite used to be and all its growth rings, its very cool actually.
kind of the same thing as how do i know my cats real?
i dont really want to get into a philosophical debate on how do we know anythings real

Which is why you shouldn't lump people into categories because they title themself as "christians". And you should understand that there are many schools of thought which use science as a tool to understand the world while believing in God.

i said a christian religion.....
im sorry?
yea i do know there are many people who choose to believe this. it just seems a little weird you know... 6 CO2 + 6 H2O → C6H12O6 + 6 O2. oh but god made it all happen.
i guess my problem is that photosynthesis works just fine without putting god into the equation

Can you explain reality to us?

The quality or state of being actual or true.

 

[Neverfly]

Jan Ardena

Most of what you said did not make sense. Some of it did make sense. But most of it looked like you were trying to nit pick apart words and find a reason to fight in them.

There you go again, talking shit.
Go learn about that which you have been programed to hate.

I mean, seriously- What was that? Totally out of the blue. When exactly was the FIRST time Cruiser talked shit so that he could do it again?

You should have picked a poster that had more than Ten Posts to try to create your illusion.

 

[cruiser]

Jan Ardena
When exactly was the FIRST time Cruiser talked shit so that he could do it again?

she good sir, she. stop talking shit

 

[phlogistician]

I think folks who have been in an earthquake have firsthand understanding that the earth is being moved by some sort of energy. Scientific explanation not necessary.

I've experienced two earthquakes.

I know it's due to plate tectonics. That is the scientific explanation, and there's no wiggle room for your God in there. Give up on this tack Jan, you are losing what little credibility you have left.

 

[Neverfly]

she good sir, she.

Oh, you're one of those.

Well... I forgive you. But don't let it happen again.

I've experienced two earthquakes.

I know it's due to plate tectonics. That is the scientific explanation, and there's no wiggle room for your God in there. Give up on this tack Jan, you are losing what little credibility you have left.

A better analogy would be germs.

When mythical philosophy mumblers start speculating, you end up with tales of ghosts, demons, hauntings and basic illness by possession.
In order to over come this, a person needs the evil spirits driven out. Always demonstrated as not effective...
Then the microscope came along and replaced mythical speculation with observation.


No matter where we look, from the very tiny, to the vastly humongously huge...
No hint, no sign, no clue as to the presence of a God.
The more this happens, the more believers just bump "God" up the falsifiabilty ladder.

"God moved the Earth to cause the quake"
"God created the germs."
And then when you show emergence in germs, that demonstrates no divine intervention or how the faultlines release energy...
"God created the fault lines."
"God invented emergence."

It's gotten to the point, now, that God is so far removed by this bumping that there is no way he could actively be involved with Earth, anyway. So why bother?

 

[Jan Ardena]

cruiser,

not as much as it would if i hadnt been the one who said that first?

But it does all the same?

i apologise. enlighten me on what people thought earthquakes were other than a god. that is untill geology asserted its awesomeness over all of us

Pretty much the same as what people today think, who are not aware of the scientific explanation.

no its a perfectly plausible idea if you stretch the imagination a little. it doesnt mean its real though....
My point is, you are seeing it from a perspective which may not be... real?

I don't recall giving an explanation of my perspective.
But why do lean toward it being "not real" as opposed to not knowing whether it is real or not? Especially in light of the fact that you regard human
intelligence as limited.

i have been in many earthquakes.... i live in a small country with lots of fault zones.... a scientific explanation my not be necessary but its very interesting.... and real?

If somebody stands on top of a skyscraper, drops some debris landing on a cyclists head killing him. It could be explained and believed that a strong gust of wind was the cause. Would that explanation be real?

do you believe that what humans know right now is all they will ever know?

What does, volume of knowledge, have to do with human intelligence?

i guess all knowing is right up the top, but untill you know everything how can you know how much there actually is to know.
very confusing. and to be honest, kind of irrelevant

Then don't comment on it then.
We all know science is limited, leave it at that.

but you used that at the top of your post...... dont be so gosh darn hypocritical

No.
You're the one who claimed human intelligence was limited, and would be able
to decipher how limited by using human intelligence.
I'm not even sure why you have switched human intelligence with volume of knowledge. :shrug:

sorry i assumed you believed in some sort of judeo-christian religion.

Don't worry I am aware of your conditioning.

go and learn about it?

Are you assuming again?

i was bought up by catholics, went to catholic school and believed in god for quite some time thanks.

So what does this have to do with you understanding what you've been
programmed to hate?

because religious people actually believe what their chosen religious text has written in it.

So?

so i dont believe in harry potter? and youd probably think i was slightly mad if i did. try to see from my perspective.

What's harry potter got to do with anything?

Why would I automatically assume you were mad for believing in him, without understanding your position?

You haven't show a perspective as yet, other than the usual cliched thinking, which is clearly the result of conditioning. Prove me wrong and
speak for yourself.

shall we call it faith? oh and the fact that i could see where the soft tissues of the amonite used to be and all its growth rings, its very cool actually.

Look, I'm not gonna argue with you. If it's real, it's real.
But my point is, how do you know it's real, and not a clever replica?

kind of the same thing as how do i know my cats real?

That's quite easy. Your cat acts like it's suppose to act.

i dont really want to get into a philosophical debate on how do we know anythings real

Ok.

i said a christian religion.....
im sorry?

No, you said "christian religions"

i guess my problem is that photosynthesis works just fine without putting god into the equation

And brand new cars work just fine without putting oil in them, untill of course it gets real
low, then you have problems.
I guess it's all a matter of time.

The quality or state of being actual or true.

So you believe the amonite fossill is genuine, your freind doesn't.
Based on your definition, who is right, and why?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Neverfly,

Most of what you said did not make sense. Some of it did make sense. But most of it looked like you were trying to nit pick apart words and find a reason to fight in them.

I believe science, as in moden science (method) has to be limited to the basic senses, but I don't believe human intelligence has that limitation. And
I don't believe science can conclude that human intelligence is limited.
So what seemed like a harmless statement is loaded with what I regard as propoganda.

I mean, seriously- What was that? Totally out of the blue. When exactly was the FIRST time Cruiser talked shit so that he could do it again?

Sorry cruiser, I meant "shite" which audibly has the same impact as "shit" but
means nothing. IOW, a figure of speech.

You should have picked a poster that had more than Ten Posts to try to create your illusion.

You're quite correct.
Cruiser, welcome to sciforums, and please accept my appology for being a little harsh, although I'm sure you can handle yourself, and give as much as you can take.
I'll understand if you don't wish to further our discussion.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

she good sir, she. stop talking shit

I'm a he.

jan.

 

[phlogistician]

It's gotten to the point, now, that God is so far removed by this bumping that there is no way he could actively be involved with Earth, anyway. So why bother?

Yeah, there aren't many cracks left for God to hide in. Theists just make increasingly preposterous claims to excuse this.

It's quite sad how they backpeddle.