Atheists & Christians in the USA

Certainly you've read Meister Eckhart? For me, Eckhart represents the pinnacle of the apophatic tradition.

Yes, I forgot about Eckhart. He's great, though if you're looking for apophatic, Pseudo-Dyonysius is the Godfather.

Pseudo-Dyonysius may seem to be too certitudinous, but he's just analytically laying out the structure of our situation of lack of certitude. I love it when he writes things like "God is Beyond God, God is Beyond Being, God is Beyond Beyond..." (just paraphrasing; but trust me -- I'm watering it down).

As for Jacob Boehme, that's where mysticism starts to veer into Gnosticism (speaking of "certitude"...). Then there's Joachim de Fiore and his three phases of history, which Eric Voegelin diagnosed as being the medieval precursor to the modern Gnostic movements like Communism and Nazism.
 
I'm ok with swearing to Mithra, for the Zend Avesta (chapter 11, IIRC, which is devoted entirely to dogs) states: "The world exists [note: "comes into being" is actually a better rendering] through the understanding of dogs." Although I'm more inclined to Martu: the "god" (for want of a better term) of the Amorites, though more particularly,the "god" of incessant wandering.

There must be a connection there . There is a story of an Amorite King being ripped apart by beasts of burden . Then I think they hacked up the body even into even more pieces . I don't remember if the story directly side that or if it left the impression of it in the story . It goes well with this philosophy where god was fractured into lots of little pieces . I seen symbolism of this nature that reinforces the notion . It makes my mind think of one ant hill yet lots of ants in the hill , or bacteria , or Mold . A blob of mold yet you can take a piece of the mold and grow more mold

Im a google Martu , I bet it is a form of Mitra , Mithra and what have you .
I think the Mittani peoples were Mithra people too . They ruled an area in the old world around Akhenaten's time. I think he was influenced religiously by his Mittani wife who was a Mithra worshiper.
 
That is so strange ! The Martu People are also an aboriginal people of western Australia on the other side of Gibson Mountain . So strange . I wonder how they got that name ? I wonder if these peoples also buy into the Mekigar thing of other native peoples from Australia ? magical Mekigar . Kind of like a witch doctor of native people in the Americas .

You Aussies know anything about this . James what do you know about the native peoples culture ? Trippy ? There seems to be some kind of parallel to the old world around Mesopotamia. Syria maybe
 
Question: Why be a atheist? Why not just have faith in a higher power, and be a good person and get into Heaven? Answer: Because a corrupt church can shake even the firmest of believers.
 
I disagree. In fact, I think everyone is really, deep down, agnostic -- both atheists and all religious people. They are just fooling themselves with their certitude, the one side saying No, the other saying Yes. All we know is Maybe.

Who is certain? Not atheists for sure. Atheists simply don't believe. Agnosticism is about knowledge, not faith. It's not a midground between atheism and theism.
 
Question: Why be a atheist? Why not just have faith in a higher power, and be a good person and get into Heaven? Answer: Because a corrupt church can shake even the firmest of believers.

If I believed in God I wouldn't care what any church did or said, however they wouldn't get my business anymore if they were before. I consider all churches a scam and I don't believe in God. So if I get scammed it won't be by God or his cohorts.
 
Who is certain? Not atheists for sure. Atheists simply don't believe. Agnosticism is about knowledge, not faith. It's not a midground between atheism and theism.

I'm as sure as I can be about anything, that there is no God and while agnosticism may not be a midground it is a refuge of sorts. A way of not committing to one side or the other, regardless of what he/she really believes.
 
question;

what if a group of believers who shun those kinds of churches, came together with the belief that God is not about those things?
 
question;

what if a group of believers who shun those kinds of churches, came together with the belief that God is not about those things?

:D You've run into those types too? Anyway the same arguments about proof still apply. When they spout BS and call it proof, I usually make an excuse to leave and then ignore them if I ever see them again.
 
:D You've run into those types too?
i actually go to one..no politics..you want something done..do it..no committee's, no deacons, no authority structure,(pastor is always making it clear he isn't perfect), there is a science flavor to it, if it isn't backed up by the bible,it really isn't worthy of consideration..(not all of my opinions i have here,have i shared there,but most of them..)
 
If I believed in God I wouldn't care what any church did or said, however they wouldn't get my business anymore if they were before. I consider all churches a scam and I don't believe in God. So if I get scammed it won't be by God or his cohorts.

Never associate God with a corrupt man made church. Christian's don't walk with God, nor do I, not in life at least. If you don't want to believe in a higher power then thats fine, but millions over time have heard the calling. Its not something one can prove, only believe.
 
I consider all churches a scam . . . .
I hate [the most popular American] religions as much as the next outspoken atheist, but I don't think that statement is fair. In the modern world a church has to be a business to survive, especially in the USA where at the very minimum it has to file IRS forms in order to retain its tax-exempt status.

If you're calling it a scam because it convinces people to believe in imaginary supernatural phenomena and creatures, you need to look a little deeper into it. Churches spring up because people believe in those phenomena and those creatures--Jung calls them archetypes and suggests that we are born with them, perhaps (the following are not Jung's words) as an accident of evolution. Yes eventually many of them become self-serving and hold classes to convince undecided children that religion is truth, but not all. Most children get their religion from their parents, not from a church.
Its not something one can prove, only believe.
If it were about anything else, we'd call it a "hunch" and tell you that we're not going to take it seriously until you provide some evidence.

Religion makes people irrational. Entire populations will believe in some utterly ludicrous bullshit, without a single one of them having any evidence.

Wait, excuse me, we have at least one member right here on SciForums who claims that God has talked to her. But that kind of "evidence" would not hold up in a court of law, so why should it be accepted anywhere else?
 
I hate [the most popular American] religions as much as the next outspoken atheist, but I don't think that statement is fair. In the modern world a church has to be a business to survive, especially in the USA where at the very minimum it has to file IRS forms in order to retain its tax-exempt status.

If you're calling it a scam because it convinces people to believe in imaginary supernatural phenomena and creatures, you need to look a little deeper into it. Churches spring up because people believe in those phenomena and those creatures--Jung calls them archetypes and suggests that we are born with them, perhaps (the following are not Jung's words) as an accident of evolution. Yes eventually many of them become self-serving and hold classes to convince undecided children that religion is truth, but not all. Most children get their religion from their parents, not from a church.If it were about anything else, we'd call it a "hunch" and tell you that we're not going to take it seriously until you provide some evidence.

Religion makes people irrational. Entire populations will believe in some utterly ludicrous bullshit, without a single one of them having any evidence.

Wait, excuse me, we have at least one member right here on SciForums who claims that God has talked to her. But that kind of "evidence" would not hold up in a court of law, so why should it be accepted anywhere else?

Yet you have no evidence that God doesn't exist. How can you criticize my faith, when your has just as little barring as mine. Yes, its a hunch, a belief, its faith. The only real evidence I could give you is life its self. It is SOOOO complex, so impossible, yet its perfect. Think about the millions, upon millions tinny events that had to occur for life to happen.

I use to sleep in church as a kid, I threw an apple at my teacher in kindergarden, I have never been a saint, yet here I am and theres a tinny voice in my head to guide. Weather that be my mind, or something greater I will never no, so I won't even try and figure it out.

Religion is such a out dated concept. Two options here. A. Believe. or B. Don't believe.
 
agnosticism may not be a midground it is a refuge of sorts.

No it's not. Asking someone if they believe in God and getting the answer 'I'm an agnostic' is not answering the question. There are apparently agnostic theists, who acknowledge it's all about faith, and who don't try and bullshit us that they 'know' God is real or feel his presence.
 
If Atheism is about belief and agnosticism is about knowledge then I'm an Atheist-Agnostic. I don't believe in God, however I don't know for certain that it does not exist.
 
If Atheism is about belief and agnosticism is about knowledge then I'm an Atheist-Agnostic. I don't believe in God, however I don't know for certain that it does not exist.

I think all real atheists are agnostics, because someone claiming to know god does not exist should be termed an 'anti-theist'.
 
Never associate God with a corrupt man made church. Christian's don't walk with God, nor do I, not in life at least. If you don't want to believe in a higher power then thats fine, but millions over time have heard the calling. Its not something one can prove, only believe.

Unfortunately people believe in lots of BS and I'm sure not an exception, but I don't believe in any religious BS. If it can't be proved what's the point of believing in it? Religion is big business, it's also the power of control over large groups of people and a lot of very bad shit has been done in the name of God and the right way to believe in God.
 
No it's not. Asking someone if they believe in God and getting the answer 'I'm an agnostic' is not answering the question. There are apparently agnostic theists, who acknowledge it's all about faith, and who don't try and bullshit us that they 'know' God is real or feel his presence.

Ahhh! But it could be by a large percentage of people that claim to be agnostic, and I will concede some exceptions. Will that satisfy you?
 
Yet you have no evidence that God doesn't exist. How can you criticize my faith, when your has just as little barring as mine.
You don't understand science and scholarship if you can make a statement like that and expect to be taken seriously.

It is never necessary to provide evidence to prove a negative. The burden of proof is always on the one who asserts the positive.

If this were not the case, then all science and scholarship would grind to a halt as we dissipated our finite resources in proving that every crackpot hypothesis is false. It is always up to the person who presents an assertion to explain what makes him think it is true. It is never everybody else's responsibility to prove it false.
Yes, its a hunch, a belief, its faith.
But it's an irrational faith, and that's the key. There is a unbridgeable chasm of difference between rational faith and irrational faith. My wife has stood by me for 34 years, trusting me, relying on me, helping me, guiding me, forgiving me, and loving me without exception. This is plenty of evidence for my totally rational faith that she will continue to do so.

We've had four Mercedes Benz automobiles that were as dependable as the seasons (two of which are still in the family, one for 33 years). This evidence inspired our rational faith that buying a fifth one was a wise decision.

But what evidence does the religionist have to explain his own faith in the existence of an invisible, illogical supernatural universe, filled with creatures and forces that perturb the operation of the natural universe? Science in its current robust form has existed for half a millennium, and no evidence of these creatures and forces, no evidence of their perturbation of the natural universe, no exceptions to the laws of nature, have ever been observed. Despite the fact that literally millions of people would very much like to find one, and get their photo on the cover of Time magazine over the caption, "The Man (or Woman) Who Proved Religion and Disproved Science." The best they can show us is a tortilla, one out of tens of millions manufactured every year, with a random burn pattern said to look (if you squint through one eye) exactly like a figure from the Bible. A figure of whom no portraits exist so we don't actually know what he or she looked like!
The only real evidence I could give you is life its self. It is SOOOO complex, so impossible, yet its perfect. Think about the millions, upon millions tinny events that had to occur for life to happen.
Oh geezy weezy, not this balderdash AGAIN!!! I hope you're about fourteen and can be excused for being so silly. For sure you must be an American because my people are incapable of conceptualizing very large numbers. This planet has existed for more than four billion years. Do you have any idea how many random events occur over the course of four billion years? Especially considering that at the beginning the earth was much warmer and was bombarded by significantly more radiation, so molecules were boppin' and poppin' all the time? Do you actually know enough mathematics, physics and chemistry to say with confidence that this biosphere could not have evolved by random mutation from simple molecules that were formed by abiogenesis?

And then please remember that there are close to one septillion (10^24) stars in the universe, and we already know that planets are not exactly a rarity so there are rather a lot of those out there too. And you're still going to tell us that the odds of life occurring at random on just one of them are too small to occur in the thirteen billion years that the universe has been here?

Yet what you insist is not only possible but certain, is that supernatural forces which you cannot describe, which work in ways that do not conform to natural laws, which have never made themselves known, do exist! You dismiss the possible but have faith in something so bizarre that it can't even be described!

That is, indeed, faith of the most stupendously irrational kind. Only a fellow American could have a hunch of such outrageous proportions, and present it as a reasonable hypothesis on a website devoted to science, without being embarrassed.
 
Science doesn't disprove God, and God doesn't disprove science. Science is how, God is why, and thats that. The day someone proves the universe was created by anything but the supernatural I will come to the table.
 
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